Rotate Hard in the downswing

[i*windows]

I recently had a lesson, where the coach called me a rotational player, and said that I need to rotate hard in the downswing with the handle going low and left, to try and get the club path more neutral instead of 7* from the inside. He gave me a couple of drills, but I cant seem to do anything to effect rotation in the downswing. The more I think about it the more I get confused. This might sound stupid - but how do you rotate in the downswing? 

[DShepley]

29 minutes ago, i*windows said:

I recently had a lesson, where the coach called me a rotational player, and said that I need to rotate hard in the downswing with the handle going low and left, to try and get the club path more neutral instead of 7* from the inside. He gave me a couple of drills, but I cant seem to do anything to effect rotation in the downswing. The more I think about it the more I get confused. This might sound stupid - but how do you rotate in the downswing? 

Post a video.  To rotate through the swing, your hands, club head and club face need to be in a good position in the delivery zone.  My guess is that if you aren't rotating, it's because your clubface is open and your body is reacting with a stall to give the club face a chance to square up.  Also,....your shoulders control the path.  Your hands can only swing left if your shoulders are in a position to allow it.  

[me05501]

Does the linked video look anything like what he is trying to get you to do? 

 

It seems like there are two general schools of thought around the swing these days.

 

The swing shown below (and maybe the one recommended by your pro) are what I refer to as the modern swing. It's based around keeping the body and club synched up and using tons of ground forces and core rotation to speed the club through impact. Like the pro in the video says, "the pros aren't doing anything with their hands through impact...they're just turning their shoulders through." The feel is having the hands centered in front of the chest throughout the swing with relatively straight arms. It's a very tight-feeling motion without much "whipping" of the clubhead through the ball. Very body- and large muscle-driven. 

 

I think probably anyone could learn to swing that way with enough practice, but it's going to depend on your overall level of fitness. It's a young person's swing IMO. It sounds like if you stick with this pro you'll be learning this kind of swing. You should know pretty shortly if it works for you. 

 

The second type of swing I'd call "traditional." This is the one most of us probably tried to learn or emulate growing up. The idea is more about letting the club head accelerate past the hands to generate speed and the overall feel is looser. For a lot of people it might feel like the hands move around the body or across the chest compared to the modern swing where it feels like the hands stay in front of the sternum. 

 

If you decide the traditional method is more for you, that's AOK, but you may need to use a different pro. 

 

 

 

[glk]

Saddened to hear your experience.    I have yet to see a golfer that doesn't rotate.    So the instructor gave you no explanation of the most significant flaw in your motion?       Also did the instructor help you make a swing like he was describing and for which I assume the drills are meant to help you make the new motion.      I've taken plenty of lessons in the past 6 years and everyone included a discussion on the main motion i needed to improve (cause and effect) , working with me to actually perform the new motion (slowly at first, etc), and even some discussion on how best to practice via the drills to effectively make the change.    If he basically just told you to rotate more and go low and left I'd find someone else.

[b.helts]

Your coach said you were a rotational player then said you need to rotate?

 

That doesn't make sense to me.

[phizzy30]

6 minutes ago, b.helts said:

Your coach said you were a rotational player then said you need to rotate?

 

That doesn't make sense to me.

Exactly.  Telling a student they are classified as such, offering the solution, yet not showing it visually isn't conducive to being a good instructor/teaching pro. 

[airjammer]

3 hours ago, i*windows said:

I recently had a lesson, where the coach called me a rotational player, and said that I need to rotate hard in the downswing with the handle going low and left, to try and get the club path more neutral instead of 7* from the inside. He gave me a couple of drills, but I cant seem to do anything to effect rotation in the downswing. The more I think about it the more I get confused. This might sound stupid - but how do you rotate in the downswing? 

Is you clubhead “closed or shut” at any point during your swing? 

[i*windows]

thanks All, here are a couple of videos, of me trying to rotate.

To answer some questions, the pro gave me some 'rotation' drills to do without the ball, pulling a bungee to feel rotation and a couple of other bits, but after the lesson I sort of felt I was missing some pieces. Once I've swing back to the top of my backswing I feel stuck and can't move anywhere and find it hard to do any sort of 'rotation'. 

yes the video is pretty similar to what he wanted me to do.

he said I was a 'rotational' player after putting me on some force plates, and saying 'look your weight goes here and here so you are a rotator' - which if you look at any videos of me I don't think I do.

I hood my clubface almost immediately as I take the club back, I've always done this and find it almost impossible to fix, then on the way down its slightly open, which with an in to out path causes massive blocks.

 

any help or guidance would be appreciated, tia.

 

 

 

[Golfbeat]

I think that your body is moving very well. The video format is too big for my screen but it looks like your wrists are collapsing too early. The reason could be an open club face but it is hard to see on this video format. YouTube would make it much easier to analyze.

[glk]

Your left hip comes out and in versus the right hip going up and back - this brings the center of the pelvis out toward the ball - you have already EE'd by the time you reach top of backswing.    So in the downswing when the right hip starts coming out you are standing up - cutting off rotation.    The hip motion pretty much affects a lot of things - two things I'd do work on better hips pivot and get a lesson from a better instructor.

Edited May 10, 2021 by glk

[me05501]

If he was using force plates, he was probably comparing your rotational torque against your vertical and horizontal shifts. A lot of force plate guys seem to categorize players in one of those three dimensions as a way of focusing on where they can improve your speed/power/efficiency most quickly. 

 

Your swing looks pretty decent already. What is it you're trying to achieve? More distance or more consistency?  

[jetandollie]

If you start to feel your left hip pulling back in a straight line through impact rather than twisting/rotating your hips and pelvis together to start the downswing, you may find a lot of help with the early extension. A little tricky to see in the videos, but my untrained eyes see your hands a bit behind and your lower body getting in the way. 

[glk]

The result of the hip motion - standing up and thrusting toward the ball - can't rotate when doing this.

 

 

AMG video on this https://www.instagram.com/p/CBvW0eIKnGd/

[Atrayn]

Your rotation is ok. Your problem is what you are doing with your wrists. You have a combo of the two methods. GLK is correct. 

[Atrayn]

In the image above you need more rotation with your right forearm while maintaining the angle instead of cupping. The right arm works more like a piston. 

 

One analogy I give is the feeling of throwing a football. Done correctly the right hand works thumb down. Same with the golf swing. Except the shaft prevents it. However, you feel pressure in the right forefinger against the shaft all the way through impact

Edited May 10, 2021 by Atrayn

[i*windows]

23 minutes ago, glk said:

The result of the hip motion - standing up and thrusting toward the ball - can't rotate when doing this.

 

 

AMG video on this https://www.instagram.com/p/CBvW0eIKnGd/

yep big time EE, need to fix, this as its a new occurance

[i*windows]

43 minutes ago, me05501 said:

If he was using force plates, he was probably comparing your rotational torque against your vertical and horizontal shifts. A lot of force plate guys seem to categorize players in one of those three dimensions as a way of focusing on where they can improve your speed/power/efficiency most quickly. 

 

Your swing looks pretty decent already. What is it you're trying to achieve? More distance or more consistency?  

just trying to be a bit more consistent, my wrists break down after impact, and this leads to pretty high shots. When my timing is great I play well, but if it's off I'm rubbish

[i*windows]

47 minutes ago, glk said:

Your left hip comes out and in versus the right hip going up and back - this brings the center of the pelvis out toward the ball - you have already EE'd by the time you reach top of backswing.    So in the downswing when the right hip starts coming out you are standing up - cutting off rotation.    The hip motion pretty much affects a lot of things - two things I'd do work on better hips pivot and get a lesson from a better instructor.

cheers, will look into this

[i*windows]

41 minutes ago, glk said:

The result of the hip motion - standing up and thrusting toward the ball - can't rotate when doing this.

 

 

AMG video on this https://www.instagram.com/p/CBvW0eIKnGd/

Such a good video, wow I do exactly what they talk about, rotate round my right side, and not move it back! thanks!

[glk]

Just now, i*windows said:

Such a good video, wow I do exactly what they talk about, rotate round my right side, and not move it back! thanks!

Fixing this one thing can have positive ripple affects throughout your swing - to me i just focus on my left knee working out toward my toes and let my rotation bring it in a bit - then want to have the feel of my right butt cheek working up and around toward the target (won't actually point to the target.    So left knee doubles in flex and right knee loses maybe 10*.       I think of my right hip as the doorknob and left as the hinges and I swing the door open - then after moving pressure in transition - it works the other way with the left hip swing up and around.   easy peasy.

 

this a great clip from Monte on how right goes up and back and how it reveres in downswing.     https://www.instagram.com/p/CNFrRzmMAPl/

 

 

[Atrayn]

44 minutes ago, i*windows said:

yep big time EE, need to fix, this as its a new occurance

Honestly you don't have a big EE problem. Sequencing is off a bit which also causes you to lose your balance. Look at Monte's Zipper Away drill. Getting your butt into your left heel (i.e. Hips) first creates the room for your arms. The low left happens naturally. Right now you have a slight flip at the bottom because you are out of position.

 

[Valtiel]

Definite +1 to everything @glk said, especially the video link. That video has to me been the most effective visualization of what to do and what not to do with the lower body as well as a lightbulb for those that tend to swing "backwards" e.g. an arm swing with a passive, trailing lower body vs. a more full body move with a leading lower body. 

The instructor was likely referring to your shut clubface when he mentioned rotation, as a strong and aggressive lower body rotation is the favored method for managing a shut club face (see DJ, Morikawa, Hovland, Duval etc). If that's where he was coming from then he has done you a disservice by not explaining the ways you are rotating incorrectly and how that will prevent you from rotating effectively. Start with that video, taking note of the order in which the hips fire in relation to the rest of the swing just as much as the details about depth. 

 

[glk]

Seeing how the hips via the knees move the pelvis from the rear view can be enlightening.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BsGdYNFlFOS/

[zenman4711]

Maybe move a little closer to the ball...