AT&T Byron Nelson

[Kdaniel72]

10 minutes ago, Ferguson said:

Look like JS left some strokes out there and fell short.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dude was sick the month before and only played a few practice rounds! I think he preformed admirable.

[smashdn]

On 5/12/2021 at 10:48 PM, ryan.pager said:

So full disclosure, I am a member out there, and have been there the past 5ish years.

 

The course was setup for the tournament MUCH differently that what was originally expected during the past couple months.

 

Examples,

• The greens normally roll around a 10 (bent grass + summer = death). When they stimped em last week, they were at 11, and the plan was to bring them to a 13-14 for the tournament. In the pro am today, they were running an 11.5, so I'm gonna assume they are cutting them down tonight.
• The rough is normally 3-5 inches thick for members (and has been the last couple years). The PGA Tour literally came in, and mandated that we cut down the rough to *no more* than 2 inches. According to them, "the pros don't like to play out of super thick rough". The second cut is still there, but these guys will never get into that kind of trouble unless they shank it.
• The course was supposed to play Par 70, 7400ish yards. Again, the PGA tour came in and said, no, it needs to be par 72, 7400 yards.....aka birdie fest.
• There is literally no wind this week from what I can tell. Normal wind for us is out of the south, and is usually 15-20mph with gusts to 35mph. This week were gonna see mostly 10-15 tops....nothing for these guys.
• They have left the zoysia fairways longer to reduce roll and make the course feel longer. For example, Spieth hit a driver on hole 5 (par 5), and his shot landed and instantly stopped. That is the driest part of the course usually, and gives the most roll -- nada. If it stays this way, youll see a lot of guys trying to fly it rather than hit low bullets.

For reference, on a 567 yard par 5 (hole 12), I watched Bryson this morning go driver - 8 iron to 2 feet, then tap in the eagle. By my count, he was 9 under after 14 holes. Course record is 61 (Ryan Palmer), and that is in jeopardy this week for sure... I could easily see a 59 out there this week. The course is great, and in great shape -- but this is going to be a joke for them. The only defense is the rough + wind, and both of those are not there this week.

 

If your a gambling person, the winner will be -20+ easy.

 

Just my 2 cents 🤷‍♂️

 

 

Ryan,

 

No holds barred.  What did you think of the set-up?  What would you have changed or how would it have played differently under "normal" weather conditions?

 

 

I thought it was a clunker (the whole tournament) and watched more Premier League and MLS than golf over the weekend.  I guess this is to be somewhat expected before going into a major?

[QuigleyDU]

53 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

 

Ryan,

 

No holds barred.  What did you think of the set-up?  What would you have changed or how would it have played differently under "normal" weather conditions?

 

 

I thought it was a clunker (the whole tournament) and watched more Premier League and MLS than golf over the weekend.  I guess this is to be somewhat expected before going into a major?

This course got beat up. It was heavily criticized by the fried egg guys. I dont really know why. Andy Johnson there seems to hate the PGA tour and every course they go to.. I enjoy the shotgun start but they seem to bash everything about every where they go.. 

[smashdn]

17 minutes ago, QuigleyDU said:

This course got beat up. It was heavily criticized by the fried egg guys. I dont really know why. Andy Johnson there seems to hate the PGA tour and every course they go to.. I enjoy the shotgun start but they seem to bash everything about every where they go.. 

 

Architecturally it doesn't turn my crank.  But I think the set-up lent itself to the outcome as well.  Maybe, they had to hedge towards easier in case the wind got up?  But I would think as the forecast was coming into focus they could have adjusted the set up.  

[QuigleyDU]

3 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Architecturally it doesn't turn my crank.  But I think the set-up lent itself to the outcome as well.  Maybe, they had to hedge towards easier in case the wind got up?  But I would think as the forecast was coming into focus they could have adjusted the set up.  

What about the architecture is unappealing? It is hard to tell from watching the event. Seemed like a nice course to me. 

[smashdn]

5 minutes ago, QuigleyDU said:

What about the architecture is unappealing? It is hard to tell from watching the event. Seemed like a nice course to me. 

 

Compared to Trinity Forest was what I was basing a lot of this on so those expectations may be the reason for my opinions.  I get that there are many factors that go into choosing a course to hold an event. Architectural merit and interest seems kind of far down the list.

 

I counted 12 holes with water of some flavor and varying degrees of 'in play".  More like 15 if you count anytime the creek that the course is routed around and over is crossed or shows on the hole diagrams.

 

The bunker style did not jive with the land to my eye.  They look like they have MacKenzie-esque bunkers where a more rugged style would maybe be more appropriate for the site.  Lots of bunker left, bunker right, and bunker left and right in the driving zone.  That comes off as rather formulaic.  Maybe the land did not lend itself to other items of interest coming into play in those areas?  Maybe Weiskopf made the best of the site he was given?  My gripe isn't so much with the course but the fact this is a course holding a tour event. And maybe even moreso that the course was presented this way, if it was indeed neutered to an extent how ryan.pager relayed.

 

Hard to tell on TV but there did not appear to be much in the way of elevation change.

 

It looked, to my eye, it could have been any number of midwest, parkland style courses.  Sort of non-descript.

[QuigleyDU]

9 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Compared to Trinity Forest was what I was basing a lot of this on so those expectations may be the reason for my opinions.  I get that there are many factors that go into choosing a course to hold an event. Architectural merit and interest seems kind of far down the list.

 

I counted 12 holes with water of some flavor and varying degrees of 'in play".  More like 15 if you count anytime the creek that the course is routed around and over is crossed or shows on the hole diagrams.

 

The bunker style did not jive with the land to my eye.  They look like they have MacKenzie-esque bunkers where a more rugged style would maybe be more appropriate for the site.  Lots of bunker left, bunker right, and bunker left and right in the driving zone.  That comes off as rather formulaic.  Maybe the land did not lend itself to other items of interest coming into play in those areas?  Maybe Weiskopf made the best of the site he was given?  My gripe isn't so much with the course but the fact this is a course holding a tour event. And maybe even moreso that the course was presented this way, if it was indeed neutered to an extent how ryan.pager relayed.

 

Hard to tell on TV but there did not appear to be much in the way of elevation change.

 

It looked, to my eye, it could have been any number of midwest, parkland style courses.  Sort of non-descript.

Thanks. 

 

That last line pretty much describes anything TPC.. 

[smashdn]

8 minutes ago, QuigleyDU said:

Thanks. 

 

That last line pretty much describes anything TPC.. 

 

Which is why I think the Tour should be held to task on where they take their events.  In the end it is their event, but as knowledgeable golfers we should also be asking why are you showcasing the best golfers in the world on so-so courses in benign set ups?  I don't know how or who but at some point you have to educate the hoi polloi that a birdie fest is not always an indication that "these guys are good."   While they certainly are, they also aren't being challenged as the best in the world either.

 

The Tour de France isn't all hills and mountains but it is more hills and mountains than flat sections.

 

And then you have the whole money situation too.  Since the Tour owns the TPC courses they have to make more money there than at a venue not owned by them.  Are the most bland Tour stops not at TPC courses?  Deere Run, River Highlands, Louisiana?  

 

I think all of those areas deserve a Tour stop, just not at those courses.  (New Orleans may be the best course there.  I get the impression that area doesn't have the best options.)

[ryan.pager]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

 

Ryan,

 

No holds barred.  What did you think of the set-up?  What would you have changed or how would it have played differently under "normal" weather conditions?

 

 

I thought it was a clunker (the whole tournament) and watched more Premier League and MLS than golf over the weekend.  I guess this is to be somewhat expected before going into a major?

I completely get your point -- I would consider it an "exciting clunker." So I think the following needs to be done to even make this a challenge,

1. Play it as a par 70, hole 9 is 520 yards (its < 500 if you cut the corner like they did), and hole 12 is normally played as a par 4 for Korn Ferry / Qualifiers (486yd)

2. Let the rough grow -- members play it at 4-5" thick, 1-2" is laughable. Even for a weekend duffer like me, I do not struggle with it at all.
3. Speed the greens up to 12.5-13.5. They were running 10.5 most of the week -- again laughable.

The 3 items above were the plans from the get go. The PGA Tour put the kabash on it...we showed up one weekend and all the fescue + rough was cut down. Fun for us, too easy for pros.
 

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

Architecturally it doesn't turn my crank.  But I think the set-up lent itself to the outcome as well.  Maybe, they had to hedge towards easier in case the wind got up?  But I would think as the forecast was coming into focus they could have adjusted the set up.  

The course is pretty typical of North Texas. Shoot, even TPC San Antonio is very similar. Not a lot of elevation changes, just long, open, thick rough, and lots of wind.
 

38 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Compared to Trinity Forest was what I was basing a lot of this on so those expectations may be the reason for my opinions.  I get that there are many factors that go into choosing a course to hold an event. Architectural merit and interest seems kind of far down the list.

 

I counted 12 holes with water of some flavor and varying degrees of 'in play".  More like 15 if you count anytime the creek that the course is routed around and over is crossed or shows on the hole diagrams.

 

The bunker style did not jive with the land to my eye.  They look like they have MacKenzie-esque bunkers where a more rugged style would maybe be more appropriate for the site.  Lots of bunker left, bunker right, and bunker left and right in the driving zone.  That comes off as rather formulaic.  Maybe the land did not lend itself to other items of interest coming into play in those areas?  Maybe Weiskopf made the best of the site he was given?  My gripe isn't so much with the course but the fact this is a course holding a tour event. And maybe even moreso that the course was presented this way, if it was indeed neutered to an extent how ryan.pager relayed.

 

Hard to tell on TV but there did not appear to be much in the way of elevation change.

 

It looked, to my eye, it could have been any number of midwest, parkland style courses.  Sort of non-descript.

The exact words we go in the member letter was "confidence building". They got that, then some. Im really frustrated because even the last few days of the tournament, they moved up tees and did screwy things that really neutered the course. Its frustrating beyond belief because its not a true representation of the course. The conditions overall were really good -- but what people need to realize is the fringes and parts of the rough got burned up due to the great freeze of 2021. Bermuda cant survive 5 days of subzero temperates. The greens look so good because they were heated.

This is never going to be a Torrey Pines or a Pebble Beach, or something crazy beautiful. Wouldnt be shocked if it gets moved to the new PGA Headquarters in 4 more years; but its still gonna be the same setup -- flat, windy, etc. TPC CR is still one of the nicest courses in North Texas though (at least in my opinion).

Edited May 17, 2021 by ryan.pager

[BNGL]

53 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Which is why I think the Tour should be held to task on where they take their events.  In the end it is their event, but as knowledgeable golfers we should also be asking why are you showcasing the best golfers in the world on so-so courses in benign set ups?  I don't know how or who but at some point you have to educate the hoi polloi that a birdie fest is not always an indication that "these guys are good."   While they certainly are, they also aren't being challenged as the best in the world either.

 

The Tour de France isn't all hills and mountains but it is more hills and mountains than flat sections.

 

And then you have the whole money situation too.  Since the Tour owns the TPC courses they have to make more money there than at a venue not owned by them.  Are the most bland Tour stops not at TPC courses?  Deere Run, River Highlands, Louisiana?  

 

I think all of those areas deserve a Tour stop, just not at those courses.  (New Orleans may be the best course there.  I get the impression that area doesn't have the best options.)

Just curious what you mean by they have to make more money at a TPC venue? Simply by showing up at a TPC venue they’re already ahead by saving on course rental fees for the event. If the Tour had their way they’d host every event, outside the majors, at a TPC venue, is that viable? Not really. 

[smashdn]

16 minutes ago, BNGL said:

Just curious what you mean by they have to make more money at a TPC venue? Simply by showing up at a TPC venue they’re already ahead by saving on course rental fees for the event. If the Tour had their way they’d host every event, outside the majors, at a TPC venue, is that viable? Not really. 

 

That is exactly what I mean.  The Tour owns the TPC courses.  They aren't having to pay (or pay less, I don't know the exact arrangement) and they probably have much less dealings with/concern with membership.

 

[Go Cougs]

20 hours ago, Redpro said:

I really like Amanda. 

...Huggenkiss?

[ryan.pager]

28 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

That is exactly what I mean.  The Tour owns the TPC courses.  They aren't having to pay (or pay less, I don't know the exact arrangement) and they probably have much less dealings with/concern with membership.

 

FYI -- TPC Craig Ranch is owned by Club Corp (I think Deere Run is too and a couple others).

[elwhippy]

Whoever owns it....not a tour grade venue. 

[ryan.pager]

5 minutes ago, elwhippy said:

Whoever owns it....not a tour grade venue. 

I mean I get that I'm bias -- but care to elaborate on why you feel its not a tour grade venue? Ease of course? Conditions?

[the bishop]

2 hours ago, ryan.pager said:

I completely get your point -- I would consider it an "exciting clunker." So I think the following needs to be done to even make this a challenge,

1. Play it as a par 70, hole 9 is 520 yards (its < 500 if you cut the corner like they did), and hole 12 is normally played as a par 4 for Korn Ferry / Qualifiers (486yd)

2. Let the rough grow -- members play it at 4-5" thick, 1-2" is laughable. Even for a weekend duffer like me, I do not struggle with it at all.
3. Speed the greens up to 12.5-13.5. They were running 10.5 most of the week -- again laughable.

The 3 items above were the plans from the get go. The PGA Tour put the kabash on it...we showed up one weekend and all the fescue + rough was cut down. Fun for us, too easy for pros.
 

The course is pretty typical of North Texas. Shoot, even TPC San Antonio is very similar. Not a lot of elevation changes, just long, open, thick rough, and lots of wind.
 

The exact words we go in the member letter was "confidence building". They got that, then some. Im really frustrated because even the last few days of the tournament, they moved up tees and did screwy things that really neutered the course. Its frustrating beyond belief because its not a true representation of the course. The conditions overall were really good -- but what people need to realize is the fringes and parts of the rough got burned up due to the great freeze of 2021. Bermuda cant survive 5 days of subzero temperates. The greens look so good because they were heated.

This is never going to be a Torrey Pines or a Pebble Beach, or something crazy beautiful. Wouldnt be shocked if it gets moved to the new PGA Headquarters in 4 more years; but its still gonna be the same setup -- flat, windy, etc. TPC CR is still one of the nicest courses in North Texas though (at least in my opinion).

I thought the course was OK and presented well on TV - not everything has to be an architectural gem.  You can set up the course as you described above and by creative tee/hole positioning make the course play easier/harder some days.  -25 winning scores for pros gets a little boring because its just a 4 day track meet - a KFT event for PGA Tour members.  The setup they had  - especially Sunday - kind of eliminated the drama down the stretch and the last two holes particularly favored the leader.  18 as a par 5 is a birdie hole and I'm sure played well under par - again favors a leader.  And then 17, playing only around 134 yds, even with that tucked front left pin with the soft conditions was a dartboard.  For Sunday it would have been better to have it be the toughest setup of the week so then someone with a 2 shot lead like Lee had would have had something to think about.  Weather kind of threw a wet blanket over the whole thing but I hope they reconsider the setup next year.

[Medson]

Can we celebrate the winner, KH Lee? I thought it’s pretty cool KJ Choi was around. 

[TiScape]

What was up with all the areas around the greens that looked like they had to replace areas of grass and it looked “patched”?  Looked “muniesque” to me. I’ve never seen another PGA event with with these conditions. 

[BNGL]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

That is exactly what I mean.  The Tour owns the TPC courses.  They aren't having to pay (or pay less, I don't know the exact arrangement) and they probably have much less dealings with/concern with membership.

 

Gotcha ok yeah I misread the intention of your post then. Yeah so the Tour owns all those facilities and if memory serves they do not pay anything to the host facility (That very well could have changed it has been nearly a decade since I last worked with the PGA Tour, I do know that the course rental fees have increased for a majority of clubs especially when their contract has expired, whether that is due to inflation or actual course cost increases I am not sure I haven't been privy to those discussions in a long time!). 

 

This was something that was discussed when I was still hosting a regular PGA Tour stop, is that eventually one day the Tour would like to host all of their events (with the exception of the Ryder Cup, and major championships) at their own venues. Will this ever happen? No, or at least I highly highly doubt it. I don't see any way the Tour ever leaves Pebble (ATT ProAm), Muirfield (The Memorial), Bay Hill (API), Riviera (Genesis), there is probably a handful of others but those four to me will always be there because the course is essential to the event. It is something that was or still is discussed as a pie in the sky dream by the Tour. 

[BNGL]

2 minutes ago, TiScape said:

What was up with all the areas around the greens that looked like they had to replace areas of grass and it looked “patched”?  Looked “muniesque” to me. I’ve never seen another PGA event with with these conditions. 

Happens a lot more than you think. Greens were smoked a couple years ago at the Honda. Muirfield last year was dead (although they were blowing it up that evening for a total renovation). They had to resod greens years ago at Quail Hollow maybe 10 days before The Wells Fargo (Wachovia?) because the G2 couldn't handle the heat if memory serves (contrary to whatever Johnson Wagner said about top dressing...yeah us superintendents remember when players go in on course conditions, like we are the reason you hit it into a bad spot or made a bad shot). I am sure there are many many more examples but a lot of it gets covered up pretty well with filters and camera angles/setup. I remember one year I had guys resodding a bunker edge Wednesday of tournament because of how it would have looked on the camera looking across the green from behind the surface.