Copying hexagonal dimples????

[hammergolf]

Is it just me, or does it seem like Titleist and Taylormade are copying the hexagonal dimple design that Callaway have used since they began making balls? And just for the record, I play Brisgestone so I have no dog in this fight 

[grm24]

1 hour ago, hammergolf said:

Is it just me, or does it seem like Titleist and Taylormade are copying the hexagonal dimple design that Callaway have used since they began making balls? And just for the record, I play Brisgestone so I have no dog in this fight 

No. It's you and what pictures you are looking at. This issue comes up every once in a while here. It's an optical illusion due to the 2 dimensional nature of the pictures. If you get a Titleist or TM ball in hand you can clearly see the dimples are not hexagons.

 

FTR Callaway hasn't always used hexagon dimples. Their first two balls (Rule 35, CTU 30) had standard dimples. HX Red/Blue were the fist Callaway balls to use the hexagon dimples.

Edited May 11, 2021 by grm24

[hammergolf]

1 hour ago, grm24 said:

No. It's you and what pictures you are looking at. This issue comes up every once in a while here. It's an optical illusion due to the 2 dimensional nature of the pictures. If you get a Titleist or TM ball in hand you can clearly see the dimples are not hexagons.

 

FTR Callaway hasn't always used hexagon dimples. Their first two balls (Rule 35, CTU 30) had standard dimples. HX Red/Blue were the fist Callaway balls to use the hexagon dimples.

Th

Edited May 11, 2021 by hammergolf

[hammergolf]

1 hour ago, grm24 said:

No. It's you and what pictures you are looking at. This issue comes up every once in a while here. It's an optical illusion due to the 2 dimensional nature of the pictures. If you get a Titleist or TM ball in hand you can clearly see the dimples are not hexagons.

 

FTR Callaway hasn't always used hexagon dimples. Their first two balls (Rule 35, CTU 30) had standard dimples. HX Red/Blue were the fist Callaway balls to use the hexagon dimples.

Both of those certainly look very close to hexagonal dimples to me.... Not all the dimples on the Pro V but certainly some of them, and then on the yellow TP5X they basically look like hexagons.

Edited May 11, 2021 by hammergolf

[pallmall]

8 hours ago, hammergolf said:

Is it just me, or does it seem like Titleist and Taylormade are copying the hexagonal dimple design that Callaway have used since they began making balls? And just for the record, I play Brisgestone so I have no dog in this fight 

An article from 1971 discussing Uniroyal's dimple design. At that time, there was no Callaway.  https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/1971sep33.pdf

 

Dimple shape is just a matter of choice. When you try to increase the dimple coverage ratio, pure circle is not a good option. So you will find some non-circular dimples and non-circular dimple is not always polygon.

Callaway did file design patent for their hexagonal dimple design (there was still some pentagonal dimple), but it was expired. 

 

[hammergolf]

8 minutes ago, pallmall said:

An article from 1971 discussing Uniroyal's dimple design. At that time, there was no Callaway.  https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/1971sep33.pdf

 

Dimple shape is just a matter of choice. When you try to increase the dimple coverage ratio, pure circle is not a good option. So you will find some non-circular dimples and non-circular dimple is not always polygon.

Callaway did file design patent for their hexagonal dimple design (there was still some pentagonal dimple), but it was expired. 

 

Is it just me, or do the other two balls pictured appear to have some hexagonal dimples?

[grm24]

2 minutes ago, hammergolf said:

Is it just me, or do the other two balls pictured appear to have some hexagonal dimples?

Again they aren't hexagonal. Here is a different picture of the 2021 Titleist that shows their dimple patterns and shapes. They are round. You can see the dimples are round in the pictures you posted.

 

If TM and Titleist were using hexagonal dimples 1) Callaway would be publicly complaining it and possibly suing TM/Titleist and 2) This place would have already had multiple threads about it. There are none.

 

 

[pallmall]

1 hour ago, hammergolf said:

Is it just me, or do the other two balls pictured appear to have some hexagonal dimples?

To me, they are just non-circular dimples. They may look like hexagon, but actually they are not.

[grm24]

18 minutes ago, pallmall said:

To me, they are just non-circular dimples. They may look like hexagon, but actually they are not.

They are circular. The spacing between the dimples in pictures gives off a hexagonal look while it's easy to make out the dimples being circular. 

 

Here are actual Callaway hex dimples. The TM/Titleist balls look nothing like this.

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by grm24

[pallmall]

52 minutes ago, grm24 said:

They are circular. The spacing between the dimples in pictures gives off a hexagonal look while it's easy to make out the dimples being circular. 

 

Here are actual Callaway hex dimples. The TM/Titleist balls look nothing like this.

 

 

 

Take TP5 as an example, there are many non-circular dimples. Interesting thing is, they are not polygonal dimples either. Just to achieve higher dimple coverage of ball surface.

For Pro V, there are more circular dimples than non-circular dimples, so it may not easy to find non-circular dimples.

 

[grm24]

1 hour ago, pallmall said:

Take TP5 as an example, there are many non-circular dimple.

Any actual proof on the TP5 and not hearsay/opinion? Show me the non circular dimples on the Pro-V1 line. Guessing you will not be able.

[elwhippy]

Bump for Uniroyal Plus Six. Way ahead of its time and used on European Tour. 

[pallmall]

8 hours ago, grm24 said:

Any actual proof on the TP5 and not hearsay/opinion? Show me the non circular dimples on the Pro-V1 line. Guessing you will not be able.

I believe there are several methods to tell the dimple shape from actual ball. What I can think of is by light reflection or ink.

For light reflection, one has to find correct angle to show the dimple edge. For example, this is a circular dimple of V1x. 

And this is a non-circular dimple of V1x. It is a shape between circle and polygon (neither a circle nor a polygon...)

For TP5, it is way easier to find non-circular dimples. Almost every dimple is not circular (nor polygonal).

When you locate one non-circular dimple, you can almost always find others, since entire dimples are made by repeating some basic pattern. 

For ink, have to avoid polluting inside of dimples, so we can know the dimple shape from actual dimple edge.

It is not important to argue if there is non-circular dimple. When one wants to increase dimple coverage, using non-circular dimple is a must.

But I did not agree with OP that TM or Pro V copies the design of Callaway. They are totally different things. Again, TP5 and ProV, they did not use hexgon; just look "like" hexgon.

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by pallmall

[hammergolf]

12 hours ago, pallmall said:

I believe there are several methods to tell the dimple shape from actual ball. What I can think of is by light reflection or ink.

For light reflection, one has to find correct angle to show the dimple edge. For example, this is a circular dimple of V1x. 

And this is a non-circular dimple of V1x. It is a shape between circle and polygon (neither a circle nor a polygon...)

For TP5, it is way easier to find non-circular dimples. Almost every dimple is not circular (nor polygonal).

When you locate one non-circular dimple, you can almost always find others, since entire dimples are made by repeating some basic pattern. 

For ink, have to avoid polluting inside of dimples, so we can know the dimple shape from actual dimple edge.

It is not important to argue if there is non-circular dimple. When one wants to increase dimple coverage, using non-circular dimple is a must.

But I did not agree with OP that TM or Pro V copies the design of Callaway. They are totally different things. Again, TP5 and ProV, they did not use hexgon; just look "like" hexgon.

 

Thank you. I see the exact same thing you do.

[hammergolf]

20 hours ago, grm24 said:

They are circular. The spacing between the dimples in pictures gives off a hexagonal look while it's easy to make out the dimples being circular. 

 

Here are actual Callaway hex dimples. The TM/Titleist balls look nothing like this.

 

 

 

I would say the '21 TP5X pictured looks damn near exactly the same.... Def not ROUND

[grm24]

3 hours ago, hammergolf said:

I would say the '21 TP5X pictured looks damn near exactly the same.... Def not ROUND

 

Believe what you wish. Contact TM and Titleist customer service with your hexagon dimple theory and see what their reply is. 

[bladehunter]

Personally I think they’re all copying Bridgestones dimples to a degree. Not callaway.  

[Lasorcier]

Assuming they were copying, how does that even matter?  I don't see a lot of uproar over other copies.  Cameron copying ping as an example.

[pallmall]

8 hours ago, Lasorcier said:

Assuming they were copying, how does that even matter?  I don't see a lot of uproar over other copies.  Cameron copying ping as an example.

Exactly. Assuming there is no legal (patent) issue, copying or "following some trend" is totally fine. Volvik brought matte-finished balls to the market, and now every major brand follows.

[hammergolf]

On 5/12/2021 at 11:50 PM, grm24 said:

 

Believe what you wish. Contact TM and Titleist customer service with your hexagon dimple theory and see what their reply is. 

As I said in the OP, I dint play any of the balls mentioned. Just found it interesting. Since I don’t buy or play TM or Titleist golf balls I’m sure their cs doesn’t care. But obviously it’s got your feathers ruffled.

[Old Tom Morris]

Buy a sleeve of each Pro V1 and TP5.  Hold them in your hand and look at them.  Circular dimples.

[GatorNate11]

On 5/13/2021 at 2:10 PM, Lasorcier said:

Assuming they were copying, how does that even matter?  I don't see a lot of uproar over other copies.  Cameron copying ping as an example.

That was a topic of discussion that would always get extremely heated on here back in the day. Doesn't seem to be mentioned all that much anymore.

 

In regards to the OP, I'm sitting here looking at the '21 Pro V1 and Pro V1x and to me they both appear pretty round

[deepred]

Royal golf balls 

[NRJyzr]

On 5/11/2021 at 10:32 PM, hammergolf said:

Is it just me, or do the other two balls pictured appear to have some hexagonal dimples?

 

Late to the party, but commenting anyway.  🙂

 

The non-Callaway golf ball pics in this thread look to me like they have circular dimples.  I do not see hexagonal dimples.

 

[rp4golf]

Is this one of those "stare at the red dot long enough" sort of things, or are those of you seeing things cross-eyed?

Because, I'd venture to guess that if Titleist or Callaway or TaylorMade was using anything other than round dimples they'd be marketing the crap out of it.

[joostin]

Did a little ball test in CAD to show the following.  I'm not sure if Callaway does their hex dimples like this, but if so, it's not much of a change from round dimples.  In fact they can just be round dimples that overlap each other. 

 

The round-hex looking dimples on other balls above are really just a little overlapping of dimples and the fillet/blending of sharp edges between.  As you can see below overlapping minimizes the smooth spaces between dimples.  These hex dimples were just created with wider round dimples (shown by the lines that dip into the dimples), but identical spacing to the round ones below:

"Hex":

They're actually rounds overlapping:

Round:

 

Who knows on the aerodynamic differences.... but slightly overlapping dimples would be the reason for some non hex balls looking like they have some hex.  Dimples on a ball pretty much have to follow hex / polygon patterns.  So depending how close they get to each other, a dimple can be a clean circle or not.

[Duper]

What's with the letters inside some of the dimples on the new TP5 ? Groups of three letters, usually two groups per ball ?

[cardigan]

39 minutes ago, Duper said:

What's with the letters inside some of the dimples on the new TP5 ? Groups of three letters, usually two groups per ball ?

Typically they would identify the mold(s) used for that particular ball.  If a ball fails a quality check, you want to be able to trace that back.

[driveandputtmachine]

While back(mid 2000's) I had a very deep connection with Bridgestone, and during that time there was a ruling for Bridgestone against Titleist for something with their golf balls.  Bridgestone won the ruling, and in the end Acushnet paid Bridgestone a small portion of sales (or royalties) based on not wanting to change what the issue was.   Unfortunately all of my connections with Bridgestone have moved on and I don't remember the specifics.

 

Callaway and Acushnet had a similar, but no money was exchanged from the reports I saw.

 

This is similar to the EVNROLL Ping litigation with the face grooves.  Ping had an almost exact copy of the EVNROLL grooves with the cadence putter, and then changed/redesigned their grooves based on a patent that EVNROLL has, they may have had to pay royalties, I never saw a final ruling.  I know the old face milling/insert is gone and the new true roll they feel is different enough to not infringe on the patent.

 

I would be willing to bet with all of the patents out there in golf there have been numerous companies that paid royalties to another for use of patents, many of which never really get a whole lot of attention.

[tsecor]

if you look up the patent on all these dimple designs for 2021, you will see all major manufacturers and some "smaller" manufacturers all use the same patent......then they call the design somoething else to suit their marketing needs. You will see Callaway, Achushnet, Bridgestone and Volvik all use this patent....

 

Dimple designs