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$3,000 bag versus lessons ?


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This question could only come up on this forum.

This is GolfWRX the only answer is to spend $3000 on the bag. 

True enlightenment comes from buying multiple sets of irons and driver shafts, constantly getting on launch monitors to test, finally getting frustrating and saying f*** it, selling it all on classifi

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3 hours ago, JeffreySpicoli said:

 

It isn't about getting better. It's about feeling better.

 

So, depending on the individual, they might feel just as good spending $3K on clubs as they would spending $3K on coke & hookers. And with the clubs, they wouldn't have to deal with coke hangovers.

 

2 hours ago, CasualLie said:

Coke hangover is worse than buyers remorse?  That $3K on new club euphoria won't last long and putting ads on the golfwrx classifieds, dealing with shipping...that sucks too!

 

While it may be really fun to buy new equipment (it is!), equipment will never solve a bad swing, bad grip, poor ball striking, etc.  Too many people think buying a new set of clubs is always the answer to finding a great golf game.  They end up selling clubs either on BST or eBay, or both.  There is a very small percentage that are self taught and actually have good fundamentals and swing.  But that is not as many as we all would hope.  There is no substitute for great fundamentals and to develop a sound and repeatable swing.  None.  For those who are starting I would encourage lessons with a reasonable set of clubs that can be bought for less than $1,000.  Once good fundamentals are ingrained and the swing is sound and the golfer can actually play decently then think about replacing the older equipment with newer, assuming there is actually a benefit there.  Learn your swing and what works and what doesn't so that the golfer can end up being their own coach and fix their own swings.

Maybe take it one step further and learn the mechanics and technical side of golf and learn how to regrip, replace shafts, maybe buy a loft and lie machine and make adjustments as needed, learn how to spline a shaft, etc, etc, etc.  To me this is almost as much fun as playing.  Almost.  🙂  Doing this along with being able to coach your own swing makes a golfer a complete golfer.  That said being properly fitted is a great thing and a great tool for optimizing equipment.

Driver:  TaylorMade M3 9.5°, Graphite Design Tour AD DI 6S

3W:  TaylorMade M4 15°, Graphite Design Tour AD DI 7S

Hybrid:  TaylorMade Sim2 2 Iron Hybrid 17°, Graphite Design Tour AD DI 85S Hybrid 

Irons:  Ben Hogan Icon 4-PW, Nippon Modus3 Tour 120 stiff

GW:  Ben Hogan 1999 Apex blade E (PW) bent to 50°, Nippon Modus3 Tour 120 stiff

SW & LW:  Scratch Golf 1018 forged 56° (bent to 54°) / 58°, Nippon Modus3 Tour 120 stiff

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, clinkinfo said:

I'd suggest your question is incorrectly phrased.  The real question is, how many mid 20 handicaps will IMPROVE with random lessons, not how many instructors will "cause harm". 

Fair enough - consider the question re-phrased. The rest of my questions and comments still stand. (And I never mentioned "random" lessons - for the record. Not sure exactly what "random" means, but if this means going to one instructor one week and another a few weeks later, and a third after that, that doesn't sound like a productive approach.)

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4 hours ago, CasualLie said:

In a few more pages of this thread perhaps we will get the previous advice of coke/hookers where it should be - spend all the $3K on coke/hookers.  If you are a 15, quit golf, save yourself from further misery.  And if you are one of those 15s who really love hacking it around with friends, then do that and again, put the $3K on better vices.

 

Seriously, show me one mythical 15 handicapper who $3,000 later is now better.  Whether it be new driver or a ton of golf books, or whatever you spend it on in the golf industry, $3,000 is not going to lower your index.  Three years might, but not $3K.


 

honestly, your post made me think, the only real productive way to spend the $3000 is to probably use it for greens fees to play golf!

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On 5/12/2021 at 1:09 PM, Simmer7 said:

As some have said it's a loaded question.

 

One thing I have seen in 47 years of golf is there are a lot of people who take lessons and do not improve. I believe the reason for this is they think the actual lesson itself is the magic pill and not all of the hard work that the player needs to put in between the lessons. Way to may people only play between lessons and don't work on the things they are trying to improve and they get nowhere.

 

Lessons are great if the person is willing to put in the time, effort and energy. 

 

1000000% agreed. 

 

I dropped from a 30 to a 10.3 last summer without any lessons. I'm still in school and wasn't able to find summer work so I essentially lived at the course. 140+ rounds and countless range sessions over the 6ish month Canadian season. Tweaked and tweaked and eventually found what worked.

 

I'm spending it on the bag 😂

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With COVID, around 50 of my friends who never touched a club started playing golf and about 5 of them decided Miura Baby Blades was the club for them and about 30 of them have better clubs than most players I know that played 15+ years. I tried convincing them to spend more money on lessons, range time and practice but I think everyone deeps down inside of them wants the shiny new toy... 

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Posted (edited)

To each, their own. I've gone from a 14.9 15 months ago to an 8.7. No lessons, personal bests, and have been winning city league matches left and right. I had a session to get fitted, and it was excellent, even though I didn't wind up getting the exact options, the fittings - full swing and putter - have allowed me to learn a lot.

 

So how did I do it? Lockdown helped, of course. But for the $1500 you speak of, I added:

 

- Indoor hitting net

- 16º hybrid instead of a common 3-wood

- Breakthrough putter shaft

- PuttOut w/ rug

 

I've also upped my play from an average of 27 holes a week to 36.

 

I've also watched a guy in my regular rotation get "lessons", and he got nowhere fast, receding from 11 to 14.

 

Sure, there's a more conventional way of doing it, but all you have to do is watch that one Jim Venetos video a dozen times, and apply his craziness at about a 40% level of what he recommends. Playing lots of golf for stablefords is a great way to get better.

 

Remember, most lessons tell you how to hit a ball. They don't teach you how to play golf.

Edited by karstens_ghost
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What a dumb question.  And I get it, this is way to stir the pot, get responses and a way to trigger more activity for Golfwrx.

 

Even the phat wallet cats spend dollars on lessons because they want to tell their friends they are taking lessons from the local tour pro, bragging rights.  The person dumping 3k on equipment went through a fitting to know what they are purchasing for that amount.

 

What if I take the 3k budge for equipment, do my recon, get the best deal possible on the same set up and then take those savings and put them towards lessons.  Now we are talking about a win win.

 

I am an 18 handicap, comfortable shooting in the 90's and I love tinkering and spending money on equipment including custom putters.  That's why we play the game and find ourselves on these forums. 

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On 5/12/2021 at 12:25 PM, TLUBulldogGolf said:

 

Justify this? I spent around the same on my current driver and have played it for 4 years. I could certainly find one cheaper but I don't imagine it would perform quite as well as this one has. 

I've been playing strictly the high end head and shaft combos for about 14 years now and while I've had fittings that try to charge me $800 plus, *throat clear**cough* Club Champion, I've always been able to source the exact setup I was fit for elsewhere for far less money. My current driver(TSi3 Diamana LTD 60 TX) cost me $500 all in brand new because I know how and where to shop. So yes, if you're spending $800 on the same level equipment you are doing it very wrong. 

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25 minutes ago, ProjectX said:

I've been playing strictly the high end head and shaft combos for about 14 years now and while I've had fittings that try to charge me $800 plus, *throat clear**cough* Club Champion, I've always been able to source the exact setup I was fit for elsewhere for far less money. My current driver(TSi3 Diamana LTD 60 TX) cost me $500 all in brand new because I know how and where to shop. So yes, if you're spending $800 on the same level equipment you are doing it very wrong. 

 

I've explored all avenues, I get most custom equipment through DDs which seems to be the cheapest direct from the OEM. Could I potentially find what I'm looking for cheaper? Probably, but to know it's legit and have it built up how I want it I'm willing to pay a bit more, especially considering I tend to play drivers for several years. I never had as much success tinkering. To each their own. 

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People used to pick up clubs off the rack, myself included, and don't play golf any better than before.  I do think fitted clubs have merit.  I have all fitted clubs.  But it's also a marketing tactic, it's an upsell.  You think you need it, when you can go shoot the same score with a 15 year old G2 driver and X-14 irons.  

 

I think if you've been playing golf a long time, majority of people would agree, you're not any better now than you were then, unless you PRACTICE MORE!!!!

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On 5/15/2021 at 6:12 AM, karstens_ghost said:

To each, their own. I've gone from a 14.9 15 months ago to an 8.7. No lessons, personal bests, and have been winning city league matches left and right. I had a session to get fitted, and it was excellent, even though I didn't wind up getting the exact options, the fittings - full swing and putter - have allowed me to learn a lot.

 

So how did I do it? Lockdown helped, of course. But for the $1500 you speak of, I added:

 

- Indoor hitting net

- 16º hybrid instead of a common 3-wood

- Breakthrough putter shaft

- PuttOut w/ rug

 

I've also upped my play from an average of 27 holes a week to 36.

 

I've also watched a guy in my regular rotation get "lessons", and he got nowhere fast, receding from 11 to 14.

 

Sure, there's a more conventional way of doing it, but all you have to do is watch that one Jim Venetos video a dozen times, and apply his craziness at about a 40% level of what he recommends. Playing lots of golf for stablefords is a great way to get better.

 

Remember, most lessons tell you how to hit a ball. They don't teach you how to play golf.

You spent your money on practice equipment, practice helps, lessons help; clubs might help some, but in reality if you get something close to your specs, you'll be fine.  

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5 hours ago, JRuss said:

People used to pick up clubs off the rack, myself included, and don't play golf any better than before.  I do think fitted clubs have merit.  I have all fitted clubs.  But it's also a marketing tactic, it's an upsell.  You think you need it, when you can go shoot the same score with a 15 year old G2 driver and X-14 irons.  

 

I think if you've been playing golf a long time, majority of people would agree, you're not any better now than you were then, unless you PRACTICE MORE!!!!

 

I think what you say has real merit. In irons especially, unless you are really a whacky spec, yes, custom fitting is good BUT it's not really earth shattering. I mean if my lie angle was off by a degree, the world wouldn't end. I think it helps folks more who are farther off a standard spec. But most of us are probably close to standard in reality.

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On 5/12/2021 at 11:24 AM, Fairway14 said:

Will a 15 handicap player shoot lower scores and, or, enjoy the game more if he spends $1,500 on his bag of clubs plus another $1,500 on a dozen lessons and lots of practice range balls? Or, will he get more enjoyment by spending $3,000 on his gear and nothing in the way of technique instruction or practice ?

* both of the above options assume that the clubs fit the player reasonably well.

My 2 cents, most won't improve often with lessons. Why ?? Practice...engraving changes in swings.....old habits...not able to understand what is being said vs understanding it as your instructor. Last statement, when you look at u they instructors eyes...that can def help...more knowledge. Better a student understand over the top and why he does it..as the instructor will tweak it more. Ex..watch gankas stuff u tube...try it..drills..then go see him..thats the wow

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Posted (edited)
On 5/15/2021 at 5:12 AM, karstens_ghost said:

....

 

I've also watched a guy in my regular rotation get "lessons", and he got nowhere fast, receding from 11 to 14.

 

....

 

  

On 5/18/2021 at 8:51 PM, indianagolf2 said:

My 2 cents, most won't improve often with lessons. Why ?? Practice...engraving changes in swings.....old habits...not able to understand what is being said vs understanding it as your instructor. Last statement, when you look at u they instructors eyes...that can def help...more knowledge. Better a student understand over the top and why he does it..as the instructor will tweak it more. Ex..watch gankas stuff u tube...try it..drills..then go see him..thats the wow

 

 

I honestly believe lessons always is the best way to go for most golfers.  However, there are so many "golf instructors" out there that really don't know how to truly assess the issues a particular student may have and will have them work on some drill that address an issue without finding out the root cause of an issue.  That is like putting a band aid over a deep knife wound.  That may address the surface issue but the wound is still there and not getting better and eventually will get a lot worse.  When I say beginner golfers should take a lesson find someone who is very knowledgeable and is worth it.  Yes, golf instructors that are worth going to are going to command a higher price.  In the days before social media it was harder to find a decent golf instructor in some areas than others.  I have seen the tips of some golf instructors on YouTube and some are "selling" snake oil while some offer really decent advice.  However, every golfer is different and may have some root cause a video isn't going to address.  This is why I believe in-person lessons from a really good golf instructor is a must.  Also, when taking lessons the student must first understand what is being worked on and why then keep applying the lesson because the lesson is ingraining a new swing component and it takes time for muscle memory to accept it.  I honestly believe two factors in a golfer failing at lessons is that they find the wrong instructor who doesn't address the root causes of swing faults and, when having a good swing change addressed, the student gets frustrated and stops working on the swing change because most believe in instant gratification.  Making a swing change for life isn't going to come instantly.

 

I have had times when my game got worse after a lesson but I continued on that path and shortly my game improved.  A good case in point was when I was in college.  I was scoring on average between 76/77 to 82 or so.  The golf coach of the college team asked me to join the team (as the 10th man) more because of need to fill the spot so two teams could compete in the tournaments that spring.  I got a lot of free golf that spring, played 65 rounds between mid March to late May not including tournament play.  I also got lessons and was fortunate to have access to the high speed video equipment and a coach.  The coach asked me if I wanted to be a 8-10 handicapper the rest of my playing days or if I wanted to be scratch or better?  Silly question, I chose scratch or better.  He said the work would be hard as my game would regress.  He bet me a steak dinner I would not break 90 in any tournament round all spring (which he was ok with).  I still owe Buster a steak dinner.  😁  But the work we put in, the persistence of me continuing on the path he put me on and all the practice I put in eventually enabled me to become scratch in the early 90s.  I was fortunate in that I found a golf instructor/coach who actually knew about the golf swing, proper mechanics, learned how my body produced my swing tendencies, and worked with that to instill the proper mechanics to become better. 

Edited by RobotDoctor
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Driver:  TaylorMade M3 9.5°, Graphite Design Tour AD DI 6S

3W:  TaylorMade M4 15°, Graphite Design Tour AD DI 7S

Hybrid:  TaylorMade Sim2 2 Iron Hybrid 17°, Graphite Design Tour AD DI 85S Hybrid 

Irons:  Ben Hogan Icon 4-PW, Nippon Modus3 Tour 120 stiff

GW:  Ben Hogan 1999 Apex blade E (PW) bent to 50°, Nippon Modus3 Tour 120 stiff

SW & LW:  Scratch Golf 1018 forged 56° (bent to 54°) / 58°, Nippon Modus3 Tour 120 stiff

Putter: Byron Morgan custom Epic Day

Ball: Taylormade Tour Preferred (2016 ball)

Bag: Sun Mountain 2.5 stand bag

 

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7 hours ago, RobotDoctor said:

 

  

 

 

I honestly believe lessons always is the best way to go for most golfers.  However, there are so many "golf instructors" out there that really don't know how to truly assess the issues a particular student may have and will have them work on some drill that address an issue without finding out the root cause of an issue.  That is like putting a band aid over a deep knife wound.  That may address the surface issue but the wound is still there and not getting better and eventually will get a lot worse.  When I say beginner golfers should take a lesson find someone who is very knowledgeable and is worth it.  Yes, golf instructors that are worth going to are going to command a higher price.  In the days before social media it was harder to find a decent golf instructor in some areas than others.  I have seen the tips of some golf instructors on YouTube and some are "selling" snake oil while some offer really decent advice.  However, every golfer is different and may have some root cause a video isn't going to address.  This is why I believe in-person lessons from a really good golf instructor is a must.  Also, when taking lessons the student must first understand what is being worked on and why then keep applying the lesson because the lesson is ingraining a new swing component and it takes time for muscle memory to accept it.  I honestly believe two factors in a golfer failing at lessons is that they find the wrong instructor who doesn't address the root causes of swing faults and, when having a good swing change addressed, the student gets frustrated and stops working on the swing change because most believe in instant gratification.  Making a swing change for life isn't going to come instantly.

 

I have had times when my game got worse after a lesson but I continued on that path and shortly my game improved.  A good case in point was when I was in college.  I was scoring on average between 76/77 to 82 or so.  The golf coach of the college team asked me to join the team (as the 10th man) more because of need to fill the spot so two teams could compete in the tournaments that spring.  I got a lot of free golf that spring, played 65 rounds between mid March to late May not including tournament play.  I also got lessons and was fortunate to have access to the high speed video equipment and a coach.  The coach asked me if I wanted to be a 8-10 handicapper the rest of my playing days or if I wanted to be scratch or better?  Silly question, I chose scratch or better.  He said the work would be hard as my game would regress.  He bet me a steak dinner I would not break 90 in any tournament round all spring (which he was ok with).  I still owe Buster a steak dinner.  😁  But the work we put in, the persistence of me continuing on the path he put me on and all the practice I put in eventually enabled me to become scratch in the early 90s.  I was fortunate in that I found a golf instructor/coach who actually knew about the golf swing, proper mechanics, learned how my body produced my swing tendencies, and worked with that to instill the proper mechanics to become better. 

 

Which would have cost well over $1500 in lessons.

 

I doubt anyone would disagree with the amount of information and practice you got is the key, but the question is posed such that someone *without* these advantages has to make a choice.

 

I would love to have a coach, and not just an instructor for any amount of time. Coaches aren't cheap.

410LST 8º, 2h 15.5º, 3h 20º, 210 4i, Blueprint s400ti, forged 50/54/58, fetch with breakthrough shaft. First par round 4 Oct 2020.

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33 minutes ago, karstens_ghost said:

 

Which would have cost well over $1500 in lessons.

 

I doubt anyone would disagree with the amount of information and practice you got is the key, but the question is posed such that someone *without* these advantages has to make a choice.

 

I would love to have a coach, and not just an instructor for any amount of time. Coaches aren't cheap.

 

I agree with your statements.  Keep in mind that my coach handled all the facets of the golf program at my division 3 junior college, from coaching the other 9 players, most of whom were much better than I was.  Keep in mind I filled out a 10th spot to allow two teams to compete in all the tournaments.  I only had access to the coach from mid February until the end of May as I graduated and began my professional career.  Keep in mind that this brief period was the Spring of 1989 so it was a long time ago.  While my time reconstructing of my golf swing with Buster was short but the tips and drills did last a lifetime.  

 

The thing with great golf instruction is to assess what is not working and just as important what is working in a golf swing.  Most instruction I see address the obvious issue instead of a root cause.  For example to address the over the top move most instructors tells the student to drop the club in the "slot" or offer drills (cones, alignment poles, head covers just outside the ball, etc) instead of explaining the root cause.  The root cause could stem from a grip too weak and a poor face angle on the take away or rolling of the left forearm leading to a swing path too far inside the golfer cannot help can only lead to an over the top move, which a lot of golfers have.  The key is the face angle relative to the swing path arc. 

 

A great instructor who knows the proper mechanics of the swing and who can spot the root causes is someone who I would love to find.  I never want to work on more than one or two things with my swing.  More than that my brain becomes mush.  With video from phones or GoPros it is easy to spot check ourselves to make sure we are progressing. 

Driver:  TaylorMade M3 9.5°, Graphite Design Tour AD DI 6S

3W:  TaylorMade M4 15°, Graphite Design Tour AD DI 7S

Hybrid:  TaylorMade Sim2 2 Iron Hybrid 17°, Graphite Design Tour AD DI 85S Hybrid 

Irons:  Ben Hogan Icon 4-PW, Nippon Modus3 Tour 120 stiff

GW:  Ben Hogan 1999 Apex blade E (PW) bent to 50°, Nippon Modus3 Tour 120 stiff

SW & LW:  Scratch Golf 1018 forged 56° (bent to 54°) / 58°, Nippon Modus3 Tour 120 stiff

Putter: Byron Morgan custom Epic Day

Ball: Taylormade Tour Preferred (2016 ball)

Bag: Sun Mountain 2.5 stand bag

 

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On 5/12/2021 at 11:24 AM, Fairway14 said:

Will a 15 handicap player shoot lower scores and, or, enjoy the game more if he spends $1,500 on his bag of clubs plus another $1,500 on a dozen lessons and lots of practice range balls? Or, will he get more enjoyment by spending $3,000 on his gear and nothing in the way of technique instruction or practice ?

* both of the above options assume that the clubs fit the player reasonably well.

Spend $300 on DECADE. Figure out where you are losing strokes. See if you can fix it with what you have... take lessons and get better... your coach should guide you into better equipment.

As of 1/24/21

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13 Degree Adams Speedline with Aldila Alpha 

18 Degree Adams A12 with Proforce V2

4 Utility Sub70 699u 22 degree Proforce V2

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6-GW Adams CMB with Project X 6.0

Sub70 286 54

Sub70 JB Low Bounce 58

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1 hour ago, North Butte said:

$300 and about 3,000 hours

Ha... you aren’t wrong... but really, the biggest hurdle to improving at golf is having the time to consistently practice...

 

lessons are great, if you have the time to practice the concepts.


DECADE at least offers some immediate strategy help that can improve scoring without improving your actual swing. 
 

Finding the actionable stuff to improve on, figuring out the drills and techniques that work for you and then taking the time to do them correctly is a challenge... 

As of 1/24/21

9 Callaway Mavrk Sub Zero with RipX

13 Degree Adams Speedline with Aldila Alpha 

18 Degree Adams A12 with Proforce V2

4 Utility Sub70 699u 22 degree Proforce V2

5 iron Sub70 639 CB with S400

6-GW Adams CMB with Project X 6.0

Sub70 286 54

Sub70 JB Low Bounce 58

SeeMore milled Tri-Mallet fit and built at SeeMore 

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On 5/18/2021 at 9:44 AM, JRuss said:

People used to pick up clubs off the rack, myself included, and don't play golf any better than before.  I do think fitted clubs have merit.  I have all fitted clubs.  But it's also a marketing tactic, it's an upsell.  You think you need it, when you can go shoot the same score with a 15 year old G2 driver and X-14 irons.  

 

I think if you've been playing golf a long time, majority of people would agree, you're not any better now than you were then, unless you PRACTICE MORE!!!!

Truth!  That’s why on Rick Shields that pro shot even par with a 5 club box set

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    • 2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic WITB Photos- Discussion and Links
      Please put any questions or comments here.
       
      2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #1
      2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #2
      2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #3
      2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #4
      2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #5
       
      Cameron putters - 2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic
       

       
       
       
       
      • 15 replies
    • 2021 Travelers Championship - Discussion & Links
      2021 Titleist T100 irons (in hand photos) - Travelers Championship
      2021 Titleist T100S irons (in hand photos) - Travelers Championship
      2021 Titleist U 505 (in hand photos) - Travelers Championship
      Mitsubishi Tensei K series (red, white & blue US Open) shaft - 2021 Travelers Championship
       
      Rickie Fowler's custom Cameron putters - 2021 Travelers Championship
      Scotty Cameron putters - 2021 Travelers Championship
       
      2021 Travelers Championship - Tuesday #1
      2021 Travelers Championship - Tuesday #2
       
      • 20 replies
    • Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Discussion and Links
      Please put any question or comments here.
       
      Links to the galleries...
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #1
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #2
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #3
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #4
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #5
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #6
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #7
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #8
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #9
       
      Adam Svensson with new model of Puma golf shoes - 2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry)
       


       
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #1
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #2
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #3
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #4
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #5
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #6
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #7
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #8
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #9
       
      Adam Svensson with new model of Puma golf shoes - 2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry)
       

       
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      • 4 replies

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