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Fade biased driver for average swing speed player?


garyt
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54 minutes ago, PEI_Golfer said:

Aside from the "lessons" part, why not just hit a fade?  If you already have a pull, then you likely have an OTT motion in that swing.  A fade from that point is just set up and swing.

 

The Bruce Lietzke plan!   🙂

 

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I’ve always had a left miss with my driver. I can say though, after switching to a TM Sim Max driver I hardly miss left now. Not sure if it’s twist face, or driver setup, but def the most face biased over I’ve ever played.

TaylorMade Sim Max 9* @ 7* Aldila Quaranta Reg
Ping G425 3wd @ Flat setting Grafalloy Pro lite 3.5 Reg
Ping G425 7wd @ -1 Flat setting Graffaloy Pro Lite 3.5 Reg
Ping G425 22 hybrid @ Flat setting Aldila NVS 85 Reg
PXG Gen 3 0311XP 5-GW Mitsubishi MMT 80 Reg

Ping Tour-S Raw 56* @ 55, 60* KBS Tour 90 Wrx combo grind
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Posted (edited)

Both the Wishon 949 and 919 have 202g heads. I have played both (and all the others). I too struggle with a hook. I had set my drivers up 2* open and 1* flat and still hit a straight to slight draw, but would still fight hooks from time to time. It was only when I set my current driver in the 3* flat setting. With the Hazardous Smoke Yellow Stiff shaft, I now have a fade biased driver that I can trust. I can still hit a nice baby draw if a hole calls for it, but try to avoid letting the ball move left, because for me it can start a trend that lasts the rest of the round. 

 

For ME, I realize that among all the considerations, a driver that is upright for the user will create a draw/hook even more dramatic than an iron that is fitted too upright. Because of the length of the shaft, your 43" driver was straighter because the shorter shaft let the head come through impact more neutral than upright. As the shaft gets longer, the head can only become more upright if the hand position through impact remains the same. The only other option is a swing change that gets your hands higher at impact.

 

I have tried stiffer shafts and larger to gigantic grips and in my case they both created even harsher hooks because my hand position through impact remained low and I have late release (relative to swing speed). YMMV

Edited by Chip Duffer
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PXG  9* 0811 X  Hazardous Smoke Yellow 60g Stiff

Wishon 929HS 3W  Wishon Black 65g Stiff

Wishon 775HS  3 hybrid  Wishon Black Hybrid Stiff

PXG 0211 5-9  DG 105 Regular

Wishon 575MMC  9-A  Wishon Superlight Stiff

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Step 1: Buy a g410 12 degrees.
Step 2: Reduce the loft by 2 degrees, which will open the face up.
Step 3: Put the weight in the fade setting.

Fine tune it if it slices too much and if that is not enough, like all problems, equipment can only do so much.

Aim to the right of the target line and on holes where the consequence of it not going where expected, consider a different club all together.

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Slow

On 5/13/2021 at 12:41 PM, garyt said:

90mphss player who's looking for a current fade biased driver.

 

I just bought what you're looking for, for the exact same reason.  Forget any LS or Sub anything, you need spin to launch a driver at 90.  That's ditto for any closed face or D type driver.

 

A stiffer shaft and fatter grip may work, but it may feel entirely wrong and wrong for your game.  i.e.  I had a fade bias driver with too stiff a shaft and I hit it perfectly straight, but with a push right.  As I draw hooker, did I feel comfortable aiming out of bounds left, to hit the center of the fairway?

 

Even though I'm a 10.5° player, I picked up a 12° TM driver and will turn it to 11.25° or 10.5°, which will open the face 1.5° or 3°.  This may be a giant failure, but I'm already buying another TM at 10.5°.

 

Taylormade has always made a bunch of open faced fade biased drivers starting with the old TP models.  Some of the M and the OG Sim fit into this category.  Sure, some sliders do work, but it's better to start with a head that's fade biased to start with.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/31/2021 at 12:17 PM, mootrail said:

Slow

 

I just bought what you're looking for, for the exact same reason.  Forget any LS or Sub anything, you need spin to launch a driver at 90.  That's ditto for any closed face or D type driver.

 

A stiffer shaft and fatter grip may work, but it may feel entirely wrong and wrong for your game.  i.e.  I had a fade bias driver with too stiff a shaft and I hit it perfectly straight, but with a push right.  As I draw hooker, did I feel comfortable aiming out of bounds left, to hit the center of the fairway?

 

Even though I'm a 10.5° player, I picked up a 12° TM driver and will turn it to 11.25° or 10.5°, which will open the face 1.5° or 3°.  This may be a giant failure, but I'm already buying another TM at 10.5°.

 

Taylormade has always made a bunch of open faced fade biased drivers starting with the old TP models.  Some of the M and the OG Sim fit into this category.  Sure, some sliders do work, but it's better to start with a head that's fade biased to start with.

Which TM did you go with?  I've been looking at the M5 which from reviews seems really easy to set up fade biased. But I also hear it's really low spin.

Edited by garyt
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On 5/13/2021 at 3:36 PM, BackNineCollapse said:

425 max CG is slightly fade biased with the weight centered, and has the largest CG movement of any of the movable weight drivers (so putting weight in the toe makes it quite fade biased).  The 400 max CG is slightly draw biased.  In terms of lateral CG location, the 425 max is slightly more toe side than the 425 LST with weight in toe on both.  The difference is the LST comes 1 degree open stock compared to the max which comes square, and the LST CG is more forward resulting in lower overall spin.

 

You need to try it, but on paper the 425 Max was made for you.

I have both the G425 Max and the G410 Plus. I find that in the neutral setup, the 425 has (for me) a right-to-left tendency.  With the 410, I put the weight in the toe and it gives me a nice neutral to fade flight. I actually have both drivers in the bag and use whichever one best suits the hole. I find that the 425 sits square at address and the 410 sits slightly open. 

 

So, to @garyt if you already like Ping, I would recommend the 410 Plus with the weight in the toe. This would still give you loads of forgiveness and it wouldn't cost an arm and a leg.

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16 hours ago, garyt said:

Which TM did you go with?

 

Saw a cherry OG M2 12° and turning down the 12 was a thing for M2 affectionados.  Like I said, the 12° may not suit me, but if your a straight 90, 12° maybe something you should test out.  I'm also picking up a 10.5° M6, but if the turn down works, I might have to consider the 12 as well.  I'll find out tomorrow.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So, as an update I picked up a used M5 with the Tensei shaft in R. I got it in 12* because I hear it's really low spin, and after hitting it once I'm glad I got the 12* as I hit even that pretty low. 

   I took it to a tournament and only hit a few balls at the range to try and dial it in.  I ended up not playing it open  but in the standard setting  with the weights all in the toe. I needed all the loft I could get.

   Well the results were interesting. Absolutely no hooks and I hit 12 of 14 fairways and the two I missed were dog legs where I ran through the FW.  Nice straight shot to baby draw. Fantastic. The downside? A pretty noticeable loss of distance. A good 10 yards on average hits and 20 on the longer ones. I think it's due to the low spin. Of course that's only one round.

  The club and shaft felt very dead to me. Muted sound from the head and no real kick from the shaft but the results were really good. Anybody know what kind of shaft the Tensei is? Maybe I need a higher launch shaft.

  

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On 5/13/2021 at 3:31 PM, bazinky said:

I've found the Original SIm Max when clocked open to be very fade biased. 

 

If you deloft a driver by a degree, this would open the face angle slightly.

 

Also, a shaft a bit too long will tend to close face by rocking head back slightly on heel. Before spending money, see if choking down a half inch will help ball flight.

Edited by ChipNRun

What's In The Bag (Summary as of October 2020)

 

Driver:  Tour Edge EXS 10.5°, weights neutral   ||  FWs:  Calla Rogue 4W + 7W

Hybrid:  Calla Big Bertha OS 4H at 22°  ||  Irons:  Tour Edge CB Pro Tungsten 4i-9i

Wedges*:  Calla MD3: 48°... MD4: 54°, 58° ||  Putter: Ping Sigma G Tyne (face-balanced) + Evnroll Gravity Grip

Ball: Calla SuperHot (Orange preferred)  ||  Bag: Sun Mountain Three 5 stand bag

For details see:  Pending (need protocol to embed file list).

     * MD4 54°/10 S-Grind replaced MD3 54°/12 W-Grind.

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Ive always liked having a more forgiving but still relatively lower spinning in that category driver lofted down to open the face.

 

I love playing the Sim 2 Max 10.5 @ 8.5

 

I tee it high and hit an aggressive draw now and not really worry about over hooking it and I can tee it lower and hit a reliable fade with ease with the open face when I want to.

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So 3 rounds in with the M5 and while it's a fairway finding machine for me, I just don't get any distance. Consistently 10-20 yards short of the Ping Max. And when both are nutted, 30 yards short. I assume it's just too low spin for me, even at 12*. I even set it to 14* and got no extra yards. 

   But man  I put a couple horrible swings on it that still found the fairway.

   So where do I go from here? Being distance challenged as it is I can't give up 10-30 yards. Heck, I hit a Wishon 919 with a 43" shaft as far as the M5. Is the M6 not as low spin? But likely more draw biased? Any other non low spin drivers that are fade biased. BTW I still hit a draw with the M5, just no hooks.

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On 6/20/2021 at 3:56 PM, garyt said:

So 3 rounds in with the M5 and while it's a fairway finding machine for me, I just don't get any distance. Consistently 10-20 yards short of the Ping Max. And when both are nutted, 30 yards short. I assume it's just too low spin for me, even at 12*. I even set it to 14* and got no extra yards. 

 

 

Use foot powder spray to check the impact location and consistency.  If the spin really is too low with that much loft then you're likely getting impact too high on the face.   But with a 90 mph swing, it doesn't matter how "low spin" the head is, you should be getting plenty of spin with that loft.  I'd be more concerned about too much spin for most with a good face impact location.   Check the face impact for both drivers, not just the M5.

 

What's the loft on the Ping?    Do you typically play on hard or soft turf?  (how much of the distance is carry and how much roll out?)

 

On 6/20/2021 at 3:56 PM, garyt said:

 So where do I go from here? Being distance challenged as it is I can't give up 10-30 yards.

 

Really need more information to understand what the problem really is - which in turn is needed before we can try and help fix it.  Lots of possibilities for the difference in distance.   Changes in distance could be coming from differences in any combination of: swing speed,   face impact/smash factor, or dynamic loft delivered.   And those changes could be a result of the shaft, head, and/or the build (length and swing weight).

 

Second step (after checking face impact on both drivers) would be to try and get some actual ball flight and club numbers for the two clubs:  club head speed, ball speed, launch angle, spin, and dynamic loft if possible.

 

The only other option is to just randomly try different things until you stumble onto a good combination.

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1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

 

 

Use foot powder spray to check the impact location and consistency.  If the spin really is too low with that much loft then you're likely getting impact too high on the face.   But with a 90 mph swing, it doesn't matter how "low spin" the head is, you should be getting plenty of spin with that loft.  I'd be more concerned about too much spin for most with a good face impact location.   Check the face impact for both drivers, not just the M5.

 

What's the loft on the Ping?    Do you typically play on hard or soft turf?  (how much of the distance is carry and how much roll out?)

 

 

Really need more information to understand what the problem really is - which in turn is needed before we can try and help fix it.  Lots of possibilities for the difference in distance.   Changes in distance could be coming from differences in any combination of: swing speed,   face impact/smash factor, or dynamic loft delivered.   And those changes could be a result of the shaft, head, and/or the build (length and swing weight).

 

Second step (after checking face impact on both drivers) would be to try and get some actual ball flight and club numbers for the two clubs:  club head speed, ball speed, launch angle, spin, and dynamic loft if possible.

 

The only other option is to just randomly try different things until you stumble onto a good combination.

The Max is gone so can't test that anymore.  I've been checking impact on the TM and have hit enough dead center that you'd think I'd get some decent length drives. It just feels dead, head and shaft. Very muted sound and feel.                           I just ordered a Wishon 919 driver because the 8* I have now is very neutral to fade biased but I  now need more loft. Even with a 43" shaft I hit that longer than the TM.       If the Wishon doesn't work I'm going to get fit but was trying to avoid $400-$500 for a new driver

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33 minutes ago, garyt said:

 It just feels dead, head and shaft. Very muted sound and feel.

 

Unfortunately, that's not necessarily reveling of what the problem might be.   Some heads/shafts just feel that way.  I mean it's possible there might be a defect with the head but you'd have to test side by with another known good head of the same model and same shaft.   Very low smash factor (without any other possible cause) might be another indicator.

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27 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Unfortunately, that's not necessarily reveling of what the problem might be.   Some heads/shafts just feel that way.  I mean it's possible there might be a defect with the head but you'd have to test side by with another known good head of the same model and same shaft.   Very low smash factor (without any other possible cause) might be another indicator.

Im sure the head is likely fine, just my crappy swing. I'm on a little golf vacation right now so its got two rounds to straighten out or its gone. Just for laughs I'll choke down a couple inches to see if a shorter shaft does anything.  I think I'm just the unlucky guy who doesn't have the SS to play the type of drivers that are fade biased and the everyman drivers are too draw biased for my swing. 

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1 minute ago, garyt said:

I think I'm just the unlucky guy who doesn't have the SS to play the type of drivers that are fade biased and the everyman drivers are too draw biased for my swing. 

 

I know it may feel that way but it doesn't actually work that way.    No head model (independent of finding the best loft) needs any particular swing speed for it to work well.   We just need some actual numbers to figure things out.    Any retail stores nearby that might have an LM they'll let you use?

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On 5/31/2021 at 7:34 PM, garyt said:

Which TM did you go with?

 

The M2 won out easy over the M6.  Neither wants to go left, but the M6 just wanted to go right; I tee'd it up 4 or 5 times and it was done.  I've played it before in the exact same specs, 10.5° with the stock Atmos R, so it wasn't all new to me.  I hit some weird high snap slices off the Twist Face toe and that happened the first time I tried it.

 

The M2 12° with a stock Sim2 Diamana S flat out works.  No draw bias at all for me and the stock S is definitely a better fit.  I tried it turned down a notch, but it just went right.  I always thought this head launched low (I've hit M2s before) and with my shallow AOA, the M2 12° launch seems the same as all my 10.5°s.

 

I've only played a couple rounds, so still not dialed, but the M2 is sending the rest of my drivers to the classifieds.

 

 

Edited by mootrail
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11 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

 

I know it may feel that way but it doesn't actually work that way.    No head model (independent of finding the best loft) needs any particular swing speed for it to work well.   We just need some actual numbers to figure things out.    Any retail stores nearby that might have an LM they'll let you use?

I'm going to try and find a place that rents time on a LM. I could go to a Golf Galaxy and lie about looking to buy a new driver but I hate doing that stuff. 

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6 hours ago, garyt said:

I'm going to try and find a place that rents time on a LM. I could go to a Golf Galaxy and lie about looking to buy a new driver but I hate doing that stuff. 

 

Sorry, wish there was an easier way.  But when it comes to fitting, there are rarely any very effective short cuts that can be relied on.

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On 6/22/2021 at 8:50 AM, garyt said:

Im sure the head is likely fine, just my crappy swing. I'm on a little golf vacation right now so its got two rounds to straighten out or its gone. Just for laughs I'll choke down a couple inches to see if a shorter shaft does anything.  I think I'm just the unlucky guy who doesn't have the SS to play the type of drivers that are fade biased and the everyman drivers are too draw biased for my swing. 

 

You really shouldn't be so confident that there isn't a problem with the head.  I have seen over and over again that heads of the exact same make and model will NOT perform identically.  This is why you will quite often read advice to buy the club you demo on the spot because there's no guarantee that the new one you order will perform the same.  There are manufacturing tolerances that make some better than others.  It's one of the reasons I now seek out tour issue heads (which typically have undergone additional QA checking and testing before being stamped as Tour Issue).

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Played Bay Harbor (one of the absolute best courses in Mi) yesterday and the M5 is uncanny in accuracy. I hit 12 of 14 fairways but still no distance. On the other hand, My Wishon order came in yesterday (3 days shipping from England! Surprised by that!) So I'm going to put that together today. If that doesn't work I give up. May just move up a set of tees and be done. Although I play in some tournaments where that's not an option.

   It's been fun researching and trying new clubs though and so far, not too expensive.

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6 hours ago, garyt said:

Played Bay Harbor (one of the absolute best courses in Mi) yesterday and the M5 is uncanny in accuracy. I hit 12 of 14 fairways but still no distance. On the other hand, My Wishon order came in yesterday (3 days shipping from England! Surprised by that!) So I'm going to put that together today. If that doesn't work I give up. May just move up a set of tees and be done. Although I play in some tournaments where that's not an option.

   It's been fun researching and trying new clubs though and so far, not too expensive.


Unless you got a fake, I’d suspect the shaft being a poor fit.

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