Struggling between two different swings

[trilerian]

I will try to get videos of both swings this weekend.  I haven’t taken a video of my swing in a couple of years because I don’t like to be reminded of how awful they are.  I can try to describe the two swings though.

1^st swing is more up and down.  Arms higher at the end of the back swing, probably some arm lift as I never figured out how to stop arm lift/runoff.  The idea here is to keep my arms in front of my chest and not pin my left arm at all.  The release is very free, the closest I can come to say free wheeling.  Amazing height and distance on shots from this swing.  The problems, massive toe strikes when I am off and thinned shots.  Like so bad I want to quit golf.  The best thing about this swing; it doesn’t hurt my back (L5S1 microdiscectomy 6 years ago, and arthritis).  When I get out of bed the next day I am fine…

 

2^nd swing.  This is what I call my more around swing.  Left arm stays at shoulder level in the back swing, definitely more flat and arms get deeper.  Very rotational swing, have to get my left arm off my chest otherwise a big push slice is the result.  Easier to find the center of the club face with this swing.  Very aggressive setup with this swing.  Lots of forward press and a super strong grip.  Downswing feels like I swing out to the ball and the release is not as rotational.  But feels more like that cross-court backhand that Monte likes to talk about.  The swing produces a lower launch than 1^st swing, but distance is right about the same on well struck shots.  This one may apex a few yards lower, but still plenty high.  Trajectory control with this swing is much easier, I can play knockdowns if needed.  Follow through on the swing feels like the club bounces back in front of me whereas the 1^st swing it is nice and finishes over my shoulder.  This swing is more consistent, I played 9 last night after range time and hit 7 of 9 gir.  The bad…  Oh my back, yeah the first couple hours of the next day are awful…  As the round progresses, I lose my right to left ball flight.  I know, weird but I start the day off with a push draw/hook with my irons and straightish with my driver.  By the end of the round it is usually a push with my irons and a push fade/slice with my driver.  Hybrids are unhittable with this swing, I can push hook a 4i 50 yds, hybrids are just left and that is all there is to it. 

 

I’m really trying to figure out which swing to dedicate more time and practice to.  The 1^st swing is easier on my body but doesn’t transition to the course well at all.  The 2^nd is harder on me but is what I have been using the last couple of seasons and I have at least a little confidence in it.  To be honest, the only reason I even went a different route this season was at the beginning of every season I struggle with thin shots, and I was trying different things to get through it. 

 

As a final thought, I can get either swing to work on the range, but the second is much more consistent on the course and I know how to deal with my misses.  

 

 

 

 

EDIT:  I know my last post says I decided on the first swing, but alas, the second swing is the flavor of the week, lol.  

Edited May 21, 2021 by trilerian

[MrJones]

For your back's sake I'd say go with the first swing. I know this swing. It's not the swing I'd choose if back issues weren't the problem. You really need to work hard on a solid setup and your lower body action during this swing. Otherwise you'll be all over the place with it. It's very easy to sway all over the place with this swing.

 

The only real good advice I could give you is to video this swing and then ask for help from someone that knows what they're doing.

[KMeloney]

Go with the second swing. When you have to quit from back pain in two years, you won't have to worry about picking a swing.

 

But seriously... Find out what you're under/over/not doing with the first swing, tweak it, and go from there.

[jordan2240]

Only two?  Congratulations.  I'm struggling between about 22.  As for your issue, I'd probably go with the one that doesn't cause pain, and just practice it until you find some consistency.

[trilerian]

14 minutes ago, MrJones said:

For your back's sake I'd say go with the first swing. I know this swing. It's not the swing I'd choose if back issues weren't the problem. You really need to work hard on a solid setup and your lower body action during this swing. Otherwise you'll be all over the place with it. It's very easy to sway all over the place with this swing.

 

The only real good advice I could give you is to video this swing and then ask for help from someone that knows what they're doing.

 

Yes, I have found a solid setup is more important to the 1st swing, and swaying is an issue, especially on the downswing which may be the cause of the thins...

 

3 minutes ago, jordan2240 said:

Only two?  Congratulations.  I'm struggling between about 22.  As for your issue, I'd probably go with the one that doesn't cause pain, and just practice it until you find some consistency.

 

Well there are subtle nuances with each of these, but these really are two distinct swings.  Even my wife can tell they look completely different.

 

I'm sure both are filled with flaws, in the past I was steep in transition, with a cast and EE, so most likely these are in my swings still.  It really feels like I have made progress since that swing, but like I said, I haven't filmed my swing in a few years, so who really knows.  On one hand I want to know what is wrong with whatever swing, but on the other, I've been doing this for years now, almost a decade, and if my swing is still crap, how demoralizing is that?

 

I will say though, my mirror swing, is great!

[jordan2240]

7 minutes ago, trilerian said:

Well there are subtle nuances with each of these, but these really are two distinct swings.  Even my wife can tell they look completely different.

I was only half-kidding with the '22'.  Seriously, I've probably tried at least 10 swings with noticeable differences, and still can't decide on one after some 5 years of fairly regular playing since I retired.  But there are definitely some that feel easier on my body, and those are the ones I tend to try to gain more consistency with.  I'm getting close - I can just feel it!!!  

 

The mirror and the range are great deceivers, or so say my experiences.  The one time I videotaped myself, I found I was practically swaying out of frame, so that did help.

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, jordan2240 said:

The mirror and the range are great deceivers, or so say my experiences.  The one time I videotaped myself, I found I was practically swaying out of frame, so that did help.

 

Did you stop videotaping? 😉 

 

Reminds me of the old Henny Youngman joke: "When I read about the evils of drinking... I gave up reading."

[jut111]

I bet they look way more alike then you think. 

[phizzy30]

Tough to say here.  I have back issues as well and my swing isn't doing me any favors.  My pain management doctor told me that golf is bad on my lower back.  Well no s*** doc, lol.  If you really love golf and want to play until the day you can't anymore, go with number 1.  If you live for the moment like I do, f*** it and go with swing number 2. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by phizzy30

[trilerian]

Thanks for the replies. I think I am going to go with the first swing. I see a lot of work in my future for such a journey, but at least it doesn’t hurt as much. The real question is how to stick with it when I am thinning toe shots on the course. 

[trilerian]

I went to the range today and left feeling the most disheartened I’ve felt about my swing in a long time. I did what I didn’t want to do and recorded my swing. It is awful, I still have no shaft lean at impact, dump my angles early, and what is worse is I have no idea how I am doing that. Seriously, I feel like golf is a waste of time right now. So many years and nothing to show for it.

[Tax77]

2 hours ago, trilerian said:

I went to the range today and left feeling the most disheartened I’ve felt about my swing in a long time. I did what I didn’t want to do and recorded my swing. It is awful, I still have no shaft lean at impact, dump my angles early, and what is worse is I have no idea how I am doing that. Seriously, I feel like golf is a waste of time right now. So many years and nothing to show for it.

Were you practicing with that super strong grip swing? It's easy for the swing to fall apart going to extremes with grips. Go back to range tomorrow, I've had so many crap range sessions. It can help to take a step back from terrible full swings, do some chips, pre set wrist pitch shots, some punches, anything to get the feeling of solid contact. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Tax77

[tatertot]

Golf swings are like starting quarterbacks ... if you have more than 1, you don't have any.

 

And that's pretty much all I got. Thanks for coming. Tip the wait staff on your way out.

[mgoblue83]

I'd take more upright and relaxed than flat and tense every time. It's going to give you more speed, better club face control and is easier on your body.

 

It's essential Rory's swing from 2008-2014 vs. today or Tigers swing from 1999-2002 vs. his swing with Foley.

[trilerian]

I am hesitantly posting my video.  There is a lot wrong in it, but a couple of things that have improved since my last video.  My left knee used to collapse towards my rear leg, that is much better now and I used to get my irons past parallel, that is better now.  But my downswing is pretty much the same, crap!  I really think the main issue is my intent to swing inside out, that has to be causing all the bad stuff, but I am so afraid of that pull slice/hook that trying to cover the ball seems like it will do.  Also, the ball really isn't that far back in my stance, the camera angle is bad, but it should be good enough to get an idea.  

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by trilerian

[KMeloney]

There seems like there's a lot of good in that swing. It also looks like you're very close to the ball, standing very upright, and move your left shoulder up immediately on the downswing (as a bail out/get away from the ball move). With all of that, it looks like you're trying to help the ball up (instead of hitting down on it and letting the loft of the club get the ball up).

 

If you're working on the more upright/less around swing, I wouldn't confuse that with setting up more upright. You still need to bend over at the ball, and let your hands get higher in the backswing. 

 

Also, I think the "swinging from the inside" will happen with your shoulder turn (it looks like you have plenty) and more bend at setup. Right now, it looks like you're too upright to be able to naturally deliver the club from the inside, that you block the inside path somewhat with your body (which, to me, goes back to your upright setup).

[trilerian]

22 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

There seems like there's a lot of good in that swing. It also looks like you're very close to the ball, standing very upright, and move your left shoulder up immediately on the downswing (as a bail out/get away from the ball move). With all of that, it looks like you're trying to help the ball up (instead of hitting down on it and letting the loft of the club get the ball up).

 

If you're working on the more upright/less around swing, I wouldn't confuse that with setting up more upright. You still need to bend over at the ball, and let your hands get higher in the backswing. 

 

Also, I think the "swinging from the inside" will happen with your shoulder turn (it looks like you have plenty) and more bend at setup. Right now, it looks like you're too upright to be able to naturally deliver the club from the inside, that you block the inside path somewhat with your body (which, to me, goes back to your upright setup).

 

I am very close to the ball, I feel like I crowd it, but that is because I miss on the toe, so I get closer to mitigate that.  And, oddly enough, this is my strong grip, more around swing, lol.  I was so disgusted with this swing I didn't bother recording the other one.  But the main differences in the two, are the grip, more neutral with the other swing and the release has the hands crossing over earlier.  My intent is not to hit up on the ball, it is to have a level, or as close to level swing arc at the bottom of the swing that I can.  

 

 

EDIT:  Also, the left shoulder thing, completely unintentional.  Not what I do in the mirror at all. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by trilerian

[glk]

  Unfortunately monte’s Chicago clinic(6/5-6/7) is full but the good news is he is open to private lessons after the clinic ends which is 4:00.   Well worth the drive to west Chicago from nw Indiana.

 

can connect via his website or message here.

Edited May 26, 2021 by glk

[KMeloney]

3 minutes ago, trilerian said:

I am very close to the ball, I feel like I crowd it, but that is because I miss on the toe, so I get closer to mitigate that.  

 

Hmm... I'll leave it to the pros, but I don't think this is the way to go about trying to avoid the toe miss. Being that close to the ball (as close as it appears your are in this video, anyway) looks like it's promoting other problems, the least of which is a toe miss. Ironically, being that close to the ball -- and having to stand up through impact -- is likely going to cause you to stand the club up and pull it in to you which is going to present the toe even more. Personally, I'd move back from the ball, bend a lot more, let my hands hang lower, and go from there. If you maintain that posture through the swing, I think you'll eliminate the toe miss.

[trilerian]

7 minutes ago, glk said:

  Unfortunately monte’s Chicago clinic(6/5-6/7) is full but the good news is he is open to private lessons after the clinic ends which is 4:00.   Well worth the drive to west Chicago from nw Indiana.

 

can connect via his website or message here.

 

I've been to the Chicago clinic before, but a private lesson does sound intriguing.  I remember the last time I went, the things to work on were too much run off in backswing, left knee buckles in too much, setup was too bent over and learn to shallow the club.  

 

@MonteScheinblum

Think an in person lesson will help?  How much for a lesson after the clinic on Saturday?

 

 

7 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

 

Hmm... I'll leave it to the pros, but I don't think this is the way to go about trying to avoid the toe miss. Being that close to the ball (as close as it appears your are in this video, anyway) looks like it's promoting other problems, the least of which is a toe miss. Ironically, being that close to the ball -- and having to stand up through impact -- is likely going to cause you to stand the club up and pull it in to you which is going to present the toe even more. Personally, I'd move back from the ball, bend a lot more, let my hands hang lower, and go from there. If you maintain that posture through the swing, I think you'll eliminate the toe miss.

 

I used to setup to swing "out" to the ball more, but leaving the clubface open happens a lot when I do that.  It seems the more out I swing the more open I leave the face.

[smdykas]

I have these two swings as well I am trying to figure out. No back pain to deal with.

 

My issue is the rotational swing thoughts don't seem to work well with short irons. But the long irons and the driver feel great, I feel like I can turn hard. It feels almost like a gankas style swing. 

 

The "arms in front of body" works well with irons, but the longer the iron, the worse the miss when missed. However, bomb drivers. This is more like the mike bender or justin rose type swing. 

 

I want to follow this thread because I am at this exact cross road.

[KMeloney]

9 minutes ago, trilerian said:

I used to setup to swing "out" to the ball more, but leaving the clubface open happens a lot when I do that.  It seems the more out I swing the more open I leave the face.

 

I think you've got a misconception at work here (or you're not "doing it right"). If you're more "over" the ball with bend, then your shoulders will be out more toward the ball, and there will be no "swinging out" to the ball. Google some Dustin Johnson down-the-line swings. Lots of bend, completely "covers" the ball, and he swings left (not out at all). 

[trilerian]

6 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

 

I think you've got a misconception at work here (or you're not "doing it right"). If you're more "over" the ball with bend, then your shoulders will be out more toward the ball, and there will be no "swinging out" to the ball. Google some Dustin Johnson down-the-line swings. Lots of bend, completely "covers" the ball, and he swings left (not out at all). 

I see what you are saying.  This would actually make me swing more down and left, not more out.  Can I say I am afraid of the smoother hook?  Like most golfers, I started out with an over the top move and I think my subconscious does everything it can to avoid that since it knows how much my conscious mind hates it, lol.  But I do agree, I need to cover the ball better, I'm pretty much stood up at impact, and it ain't great.  

[KMeloney]

I'm all about avoiding the smother hook, too. But with this setup, the smother hook only comes from hanging back on my right side and/or not turning my chest throughout the shot -- fundamental things that are pretty much going to promote a hook, regardless of your setup. 

 

[trilerian]

12 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

I'm all about avoiding the smother hook, too. But with this setup, the smother hook only comes from hanging back on my right side and/or not turning my chest throughout the shot -- fundamental things that are pretty much going to promote a hook, regardless of your setup. 

 

I'll give it a go at the range tonight, what's the worse that could happen?  So I need to setup more bent over, and swing down and left more, without throwing my shoulders over the ball, and still get to my left side.  Sounds simple, in practice I'm sure it will be anything but...

[glk]

48 minutes ago, trilerian said:

I'll give it a go at the range tonight, what's the worse that could happen?  So I need to setup more bent over, and swing down and left more, without throwing my shoulders over the ball, and still get to my left side.  Sounds simple, in practice I'm sure it will be anything but...

hopefully you get together with Monte.

 

Working setup would be a good step since I expect Monte would address it first off.

 

I'd have you consider doing this at home in front of a mirror -setup is one of the easiest if not the easiest thing to work on - static position that can be checked via mirror or video - but it has a pretty big impact on what happens dynamically.       Adam has a good video on setup from dtl view - using the club to measure hips centered over ankles etc - can also use club to measure shoulders somewhere over arches to toes - put the club behind your right arm after setup and it should hang straight down just past your knee and point to tops of laces is a good guide.   Hands should hang somewhere just outside the toe line.    Note he doesn't add side tilt in setup - shoulder provide all the tilt needs so keep that spine upright - this is a face on view - and while your at it put a club down perpendicular to the target line about 2-3 inches inside the left heel - should end up around your left pec area (irons here) - and widen that stance - heels should be somewhere around 16-18 inches apart (can obviously vary based on individual but your stance in the video is way to narrow).

 

Don't know if you really  want to get 70/30 toe/heel but this puts pressure more toward balls of feet as opposed to setting up into heels - i like it biased a little to the balls of feet since takeaway moves it to ball of left foot and toward heel of right - setting up 50/50 would be good just not something more in the heels - not having a pressure mat we have to rely on feel and balance.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLepiR2F026/

Edited May 26, 2021 by glk

[trilerian]

15 minutes ago, glk said:

hopefully you get together with Monte.

 

Working setup would be a good step since I expect Monte would address it first off.

 

I'd have you consider doing this at home in front of a mirror -setup is one of the easiest if not the easiest thing to work on - static position that can be checked via mirror or video - but it has a pretty big impact on what happens dynamically.       Adam has a good video on setup from dtl view - using the club to measure hips centered over ankles etc - can also use club to measure shoulders somewhere over arches to toes - put the club behind your right arm after setup and it should hang straight down just past your knee and point to tops of laces is a good guide.   Hands should hang somewhere just outside the toe line.    Note he doesn't add side tilt in setup - shoulder provide all the tilt needs so keep that spine upright - this is a face on view - and while your at it put a club down perpendicular to the target line about 2-3 inches inside the left heel - should end up around your left pec area (irons here) - and widen that stance - heels should be somewhere around 16-18 inches apart (can obviously vary based on individual but your stance in the video is way to narrow).

 

Don't know if you really  want to get 70/30 toe/heel but this puts pressure more toward balls of feet as opposed to setting up into heels - i like it biased a little to the balls of feet since takeaway moves it to ball of left foot and toward heel of right - setting up 50/50 would be good just not something more in the heels - not having a pressure mat we have to rely on feel and balance.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLepiR2F026/

I'll give that a go.  And I sent Monte a pm, we'll see if we can work something out. 

[glk]

Just now, trilerian said:

I'll give that a go.  And I sent Monte a pm, we'll see if we can work something out. 

Good deal.  Should add that setup is all about finding balance points to allow one to make a golf swing and maintain balance - we humans are messy and variation exits in the setup of folks with good swing - but key is they have good balance throughout.     Monte should have his boditrak and getting on that and setting up should really be a big help.

[KMeloney]

1 hour ago, glk said:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLepiR2F026/

 

Good link. I think if the OP gets remotely close to this setup, it's going yield big benefits.

[glk]

As if you haven't had enough info on setup here is what I got from Tyler Ferrell on stance width and he got it from a biomechanist who helped create the Kvest - take your golf shoe and measure and add together the length and width - that is stock width at heels - Tyler noted that this turns out to be pretty aligned with the  width of shoulder.   For me with my size 11 footjoys this turns out to be 16 inches - I stood on a yardstick with my heels 16 inches apart - it's a starting point to learn how your body works best - find this gives me good balance - doubt i hit 16 inches exactly with every stock swing - but being a bit short or long isn't really going to make a big difference - i stand about 18 for driver and around  2-3 inches for finesse wedge out to about 30-40 yards and lengthen it to about 12 inches as I hit shot short game wedges out to 100 yards or so - shorter swings require generating less power and more precision.

 

good luck.