Struggling between two different swings

[trilerian]

10 minutes ago, glk said:

As if you haven't had enough info on setup here is what I got from Tyler Ferrell on stance width and he got it from a biomechanist who helped create the Kvest - take your golf shoe and measure and add together the length and width - that is stock width at heels - Tyler noted that this turns out to be pretty aligned with the  width of shoulder.   For me with my size 11 footjoys this turns out to be 16 inches - I stood on a yardstick with my heels 16 inches apart - it's a starting point to learn how your body works best - find this gives me good balance - doubt i hit 16 inches exactly with every stock swing - but being a bit short or long isn't really going to make a big difference - i stand about 18 for driver and around  2-3 inches for finesse wedge out to about 30-40 yards and lengthen it to about 12 inches as I hit shot short game wedges out to 100 yards or so - shorter swings require generating less power and more precision.

 

good luck.

 

Is that inside of heel to inside of heel, or center?  And I got a lesson with Monte on Monday after his playing lessons.  Should be good.  

[glk]

Just now, trilerian said:

 

Is that inside of heel to inside of heel, or center?  And I got a lesson with Monte on Monday after his playing lessons.  Should be good.  

inside heel to inside heel.   enjoy the lesson    i had hoped to see Monte in March when we were out in San Diego visiting our youngest but plans worked against driving up the coast as I have done before - and we plan to be in Chicago late June thru the 4th with our sons coming in but then he's off to other things or else I would have lined up a lesson myself.     Used to live in Naperville for 35 years - made the trek to Munster to pick up cases of alpha king and zombie dust many a time - grab a bite in the pub and good to go.

[trilerian]

I went to the range last night and hit a couple of buckets...  I worked on getting more bent over at address and trying to widen my stance.  Getting more bent over felt weird, but was completely accommodating and I started to hit towards the middle of the clubface, also it allowed my arms to get through easier and after hitting two buckets, I only blocked a couple of shots.  Making my stance wider though, that is a train wreck to try to do.  I kid you not, I would place me feet pretty wide, then look at the ball and my stance was back to where it normally is.  When I did manage to actually keep a wider stance, the shots were not the best.  Regardless, no stance adjustment or posture adjustment fixed the EE or the cast.  When I tried to keep myself in posture on the downswing, I hit 6" behind the ball.  

 

I think the EE is a result of the cast, so, how to fix the cast... I have Monte's ntc video, and I struggle with it.  My issue is actually quite the opposite of what other people say.  When I try the ntc, I hit weak shots that don't go anywhere.  My normal (bad obviously) swing with an 8i, produces really high shots, but I get great distance with that as well.  With the ntc, the shots are considerably lower and don't fly anywhere near as far.  So what I think is that I have somehow learned to maximize my cast, and the things my body does to do that are not in harmony with a better swing.  Which means I am going to have to learn all new things.  Basically my concern is my swing is going to be lacking distance for a long time until I learn to maximize the new swing.  Which who knows how long that can take.  I really hope Monte will be able to help.  Although, getting better posture in the setup definitely helped the consistency of my current swing.  

[glk]

Good news is setup is something that can be done around the house and measured as i described and Adam showed in his video.

 

When I first took a lesson with Monte some 6 years ago, I had a narrow stance and upright posture - I played to a 5 cap with that stance and in order to maintain balance i had a "built-in" governor on my speed - combine that with a motion that was shallow back and steep down - and I pretty much maxed out what speed I could generate and this hit the ball reasonably well.

 

That first lesson evolved into setup - I experienced similar things you mention when getting wider and more flexed from the hips - i think the world i used was it felt alien, lol  - we worked on me swing from the new setup but frankly the main takeaway from that lesson was setup - took me a while to get used to it and I would find myself reverting then over compensating - so next lesson with Monte at his Chicago clinic about 5 months later I had evolved into being a bit too bent over - so even making something as "simple" as a setup change can take time.     I still pay attention cause my tendency is too want to get upright - swing dna is a thing.

[KMeloney]

17 minutes ago, trilerian said:

Regardless, no stance adjustment or posture adjustment fixed the EE or the cast.  When I tried to keep myself in posture on the downswing, I hit 6" behind the ball.  

 

I think the EE is a result of the cast, so, how to fix the cast... 

 

The posture adjustment won't magically "fix" the EE and cast -- it'll put you in a position where EEing and casting won't work.

 

Whether you EE to make room for the casted club, or you cast in order to reach the ball because you've EE'd, you've got to do the one because of the other. The reason you hit 6" behind the ball when you stayed in posture (eliminated the EE) is because you continued to cast the club despite there being no room to do so. Staying in posture requires you to get your hands forward/lean the shaft, and you need to turn through the shot in order to do that.

[trilerian]

1 hour ago, KMeloney said:

 

The posture adjustment won't magically "fix" the EE and cast -- it'll put you in a position where EEing and casting won't work.

 

Whether you EE to make room for the casted club, or you cast in order to reach the ball because you've EE'd, you've got to do the one because of the other. The reason you hit 6" behind the ball when you stayed in posture (eliminated the EE) is because you continued to cast the club despite there being no room to do so. Staying in posture requires you to get your hands forward/lean the shaft, and you need to turn through the shot in order to do that.

I think it is the turning through the shot that is the difficult part.  I can make practice swings where I get full extension well after where the ball would be, but put a ball there and I can't do it.  I have to figure this out...  Even if I don't care about the outcome of the shot, why can't I do it?  If I am able to go to the range tonight (high chance of rain), I'll work on it some more.

[wagolfer7]

2 hours ago, trilerian said:

I think it is the turning through the shot that is the difficult part.  I can make practice swings where I get full extension well after where the ball would be, but put a ball there and I can't do it.  I have to figure this out...  Even if I don't care about the outcome of the shot, why can't I do it?  If I am able to go to the range tonight (high chance of rain), I'll work on it some more.

 

In my opinion - your going to struggle for a long time, unless you address what the hands / club are doing through impact zone.  You are allowing your wrists to flip through impact.  Posture / EE aside, you need to learn how the arms / wrists work through impact.  The position you are in below, is only possible if you don't let the right side take over through impact. 

 

I don't want this to turn in a roll forearms vs push right hand vs release lag debate.  Bottom Line - you need that right hand to overtake the left.  Whether that feels like a roll, a push down, a push through, etc.  Doesn't matter.  Get that right hand to come over the left.  By doing this - your shoulders will adjust as well.  Hard to drop the trail shoulder, if you are making that right hand / arm take over the left.  

 

Right now - right palm - goes up to the sky.  Get that palm to point behind you.  You don't need a bunch of drills or changes.  Simply stop flipping the club.  Work on getting in the position below with little chip shots.  Either think of the right palm or the back of the left hand.  Stop letting them point to the sky.        

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

You kinda made the decision easy - #2.  Interesting #1 wasn't that in-depth, while #2 is in-depth with twice as much text, as if....

 

I would imagine the flatter swing plane has better contact and maybe better trajectory and spin numbers.  Least that's the outcome for me when I flatten my swing plane.

Edited May 27, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[trilerian]

10 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

In my opinion - your going to struggle for a long time, unless you address what the hands / club are doing through impact zone.  You are allowing your wrists to flip through impact.  Posture / EE aside, you need to learn how the arms / wrists work through impact.  The position you are in below, is only possible if you don't let the right side take over through impact. 

 

I don't want this to turn in a roll forearms vs push right hand vs release lag debate.  Bottom Line - you need that right hand to overtake the left.  Whether that feels like a roll, a push down, a push through, etc.  Doesn't matter.  Get that right hand to come over the left.  By doing this - your shoulders will adjust as well.  Hard to drop the trail shoulder, if you are making that right hand / arm take over the left.  

 

Right now - right palm - goes up to the sky.  Get that palm to point behind you.  You don't need a bunch of drills or changes.  Simply stop flipping the club.  Work on getting in the position below with little chip shots.  Either think of the right palm or the back of the left hand.  Stop letting them point to the sky.        

 

 

 

This will sound quite contrary, but I always thought the "roll" was bad.  That is more present, at least I think, in my other swing.  I'll have to video that one as well to see if there are really any differences. But if I try to roll my wrists with my strong grip, yeah, bad things will happen.  

 

But I will say, it annoys me when people are like "just do this".  May be easy for some, but it isn't easy for all.  

[trilerian]

13 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

You kinda made the decision easy - #2.  Interesting #1 wasn't that in-depth, while #2 is in-depth with twice as much text, as if....

 

I would imagine the flatter swing plane has better contact and maybe better trajectory and spin numbers.  Least that's the outcome for me when I flatten my swing plane.

 

At this point, the different swing thing is kind of moot.  All I am looking to do is fix my swing, I don't care which one it is.  And, what I thought was flat, doesn't really seem to be the case.  I'm kind of getting the impression that I have horrible proprioception. 

[wagolfer7]

6 minutes ago, trilerian said:

 

This will sound quite contrary, but I always thought the "roll" was bad.  That is more present, at least I think, in my other swing.  I'll have to video that one as well to see if there are really any differences. But if I try to roll my wrists with my strong grip, yeah, bad things will happen.  

 

But I will say, it annoys me when people are like "just do this".  May be easy for some, but it isn't easy for all.  

 

It's not present in your other swing.  But to each his own.  

 

No, technically it's not a roll.  But there is some forearm rotation and the right hand must take over the left. 

 

It may annoy you, but this is something you "can" just do.  You don't have to make golf over complicated.  Get the right hand in position to shake someone's hand at waist high post impact - instead of being in "low 5" position that you are now.  Simplest way to stop letting that lead wrist flex through impact.    

[glk]

23 minutes ago, trilerian said:

 

At this point, the different swing thing is kind of moot.  All I am looking to do is fix my swing, I don't care which one it is.  And, what I thought was flat, doesn't really seem to be the case.  I'm kind of getting the impression that I have horrible proprioception. 

Maybe but to me I’d get comfortable with that better setup cause otherwise you and monte are going to spend a lot of time getting setup better.    You have a lesson in less than two weeks with monte who can not only get you on a good path but answer and clear up confusion about what your should be attempting to do.     And once you see him in person you can do follow ups live via FaceTime/zoom for 30 minutes or send him a check in video to see if you’ve progressed enough for another lesson etc.

[trilerian]

12 minutes ago, glk said:

Maybe but to me I’d get comfortable with that better setup cause otherwise you and monte are going to spend a lot of time getting setup better.    You have a lesson in less than two weeks with monte who can not only get you on a good path but answer and clear up confusion about what your should be attempting to do.     And once you see him in person you can do follow ups live via FaceTime/zoom for 30 minutes or send him a check in video to see if you’ve progressed enough for another lesson etc.

 

Monte actually said during our clinic that we could send in videos afterwards to get quick feedback (not sure if there was a time qualifier), and this was just a perk of participating in the clinic, but I felt kind of weird doing that so I never did.  But yeah, the setup, I'm sure Monte will hammer me on that if I don't try to incorporate it before hand.  So I will definitely be working on it.  Regardless, I'm a bit excited about the lesson, and also a bit worried that I will not be able to do what he wants me to.  

[jut111]

2 hours ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

In my opinion - your going to struggle for a long time, unless you address what the hands / club are doing through impact zone.  You are allowing your wrists to flip through impact.  Posture / EE aside, you need to learn how the arms / wrists work through impact.  The position you are in below, is only possible if you don't let the right side take over through impact. 

 

I don't want this to turn in a roll forearms vs push right hand vs release lag debate.  Bottom Line - you need that right hand to overtake the left.  Whether that feels like a roll, a push down, a push through, etc.  Doesn't matter.  Get that right hand to come over the left.  By doing this - your shoulders will adjust as well.  Hard to drop the trail shoulder, if you are making that right hand / arm take over the left.  

 

Right now - right palm - goes up to the sky.  Get that palm to point behind you.  You don't need a bunch of drills or changes.  Simply stop flipping the club.  Work on getting in the position below with little chip shots.  Either think of the right palm or the back of the left hand.  Stop letting them point to the sky.        

 

 

Sorry but that’s just wrong.  Op isn’t doing that with his wrists for his health. He’s doing it cause his subconscious is smart and knows it’s his only chance to hit a functional golf shot. 
 

can’t tell without a different angle but I’d bet his club face is wide open and the stall flip is his only prayer to hit a golf shot anywhere near his target. 
 

impact and shortly there after are the results of what came before. Trying to fix impact without addressing the before ain’t gonna do much. 

Edited May 27, 2021 by jut111

[trilerian]

Here is a video from the range today.

Stance too narrow, too much left knee action and some runoff in back swing, but my focus was on a different release. It looks a little better I think, but the shot was awful, smother hook. I tried a bunch of different things tonight, and this was the closest I came to a decent swing.

Edited May 28, 2021 by trilerian

[trilerian]

Adding a driver swing.  Still some EE, but I don't think as much because I swing out more with the driver.  Also it looks like I am open a bit more at impact.  Yes, I know I have a lot of tilt, but that is around a 100 mph swing and I get 250 carry out of it, so pretty optimized.  This is my standard driver swing, not trying anything new in it.

 

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by trilerian

[MountainKing]

20 hours ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

In my opinion - your going to struggle for a long time, unless you address what the hands / club are doing through impact zone.  You are allowing your wrists to flip through impact.  Posture / EE aside, you need to learn how the arms / wrists work through impact.  The position you are in below, is only possible if you don't let the right side take over through impact. 

 

I don't want this to turn in a roll forearms vs push right hand vs release lag debate.  Bottom Line - you need that right hand to overtake the left.  Whether that feels like a roll, a push down, a push through, etc.  Doesn't matter.  Get that right hand to come over the left.  By doing this - your shoulders will adjust as well.  Hard to drop the trail shoulder, if you are making that right hand / arm take over the left.  

 

Right now - right palm - goes up to the sky.  Get that palm to point behind you.  You don't need a bunch of drills or changes.  Simply stop flipping the club.  Work on getting in the position below with little chip shots.  Either think of the right palm or the back of the left hand.  Stop letting them point to the sky.        

 

 

 

 

 

He's doing that stuff because of other swing faults, it's the only way his body can get the club back to the ball.  If he just tried to fix that without fixing what is causing the flip, he'll dump the club into the ground about 2 feet behind the ball, or if he keeps the early extension just miss the ball all together.

[wagolfer7]

19 hours ago, jut111 said:

Sorry but that’s just wrong.  Op isn’t doing that with his wrists for his health. He’s doing it cause his subconscious is smart and knows it’s his only chance to hit a functional golf shot. 
 

can’t tell without a different angle but I’d bet his club face is wide open and the stall flip is his only prayer to hit a golf shot anywhere near his target. 
 

impact and shortly there after are the results of what came before. Trying to fix impact without addressing the before ain’t gonna do much. 

 

I'm familiar with Monte's philosophies.  I agree that the golf swing is mostly cause and effect, chain reactions.  

 

It's not wrong - to ask him to change his intent.  Plenty of players have made positive improvement, by trying to do something different.  By asking him to try to make his right hand take over his left through impact, could in return have positive change.  I can say for 100% certain, that he will not miss the ball.  

 

How did people learn how to play golf before YouTube, Trackman and WRX?  You experiment and try different things 🙂 

 

Was just giving him a different avenue to try guys.  Monte is a great teacher.  But his views are also not the only ones out there and not the only ones that help others.        

 

 

[trilerian]

47 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

I'm familiar with Monte's philosophies.  I agree that the golf swing is mostly cause and effect, chain reactions.  

 

It's not wrong - to ask him to change his intent.  Plenty of players have made positive improvement, by trying to do something different.  By asking him to try to make his right hand take over his left through impact, could in return have positive change.  I can say for 100% certain, that he will not miss the ball.  

 

How did people learn how to play golf before YouTube, Trackman and WRX?  You experiment and try different things 🙂 

 

Was just giving him a different avenue to try guys.  Monte is a great teacher.  But his views are also not the only ones out there and not the only ones that help others.        

 

 

 

I try many different intents and things on the range.  I don't normally take a camera with me, as I said earlier in the thread I hate recording myself, and it has been a couple of years since the last time I did.  What I do on the range is try new stuff and go with what produces results, I guess you could say that I am results oriented.  And the right hand taking over the left feeling has never produced good results for me.  But, going forward I plan on getting video at the range so I can verify on video if what I am trying looks any better.  I think this is going to be a long process, and I think I am going to be miserable while going through it, because whenever I try to implement any of the "correct" moves, the ball goes nowhere.  I feel like the move is like slapping at the golf ball and in order to not duck hook it I have to get back to a neutral grip which then feels like I have no leverage at all on the club.  

 

To be honest, I would continue to play with my current swing, but my consistency is awful, also I would like to be able to hit the ball straight.  I'm tired of trying to guess how far I will hook the ball on any shot, or double cross myself and push it.  I can't tell you how many greens I miss because I didn't guess right.  Distance is one thing, toe shots go 15-20 yds short, no big deal, but constantly missing right and left kills my ability to score.  

[KMeloney]

I can’t speak to the whole right hand taking over the left thing, but one thing you can take away from those stills of you vs two other pros is not just the flipping vs not flipping, but how open the pros’ hips are compared to yours at the same point in the swing. Your hips are completely square (or maybe even not yet square). This is definitely something to note. 

[trilerian]

On 5/28/2021 at 9:36 PM, KMeloney said:

I can’t speak to the whole right hand taking over the left thing, but one thing you can take away from those stills of you vs two other pros is not just the flipping vs not flipping, but how open the pros’ hips are compared to yours at the same point in the swing. Your hips are completely square (or maybe even not yet square). This is definitely something to note. 

I do agree I am not open enough...  There is a lot of room for improvement, just figuring out how to make that improvement is the key.  I do think my driver swing is better than my iron swing, which that is hilarious since I had problems with my driver for years.  I think some of my issues are the stance and ball not forward enough in my stance.  I have been working on getting a wider stance, so difficult, also working on more bend.  I also have been trying a more neutral grip, but I hate it.  A neutral grip feels like I am slapping at the ball.  Anyway, as I look at my swing, I can kind of see what is going on.  My EE and cast are actually me getting into a solid left side and unloading into the ball, it just happens to be the wrong way to do it.  So I have to figure out how to rotate into the "left wall" instead of sliding into it.  

[rp4golf]

On 5/28/2021 at 8:51 AM, MountainKing said:

 

He's doing that stuff because of other swing faults, it's the only way his body can get the club back to the ball.  If he just tried to fix that without fixing what is causing the flip, he'll dump the club into the ground about 2 feet behind the ball, or if he keeps the early extension just miss the ball all together.

But that's the problem with people with bad swings teach themselves new swings.
So instead of seeking proper instruction to cure what ails them, they end up with two bad swings.

[MountainKing]

5 hours ago, rp4golf said:

But that's the problem with people with bad swings teach themselves new swings.
So instead of seeking proper instruction to cure what ails them, they end up with two bad swings.

 

That's why I just left a comment with no real instruction.  I know enough to be dangerous and can help in a pinch, but there's already some guys on here that are more than qualified to help him, giving him some good suggestions. 

[trilerian]

I think I have gained enough information from this thread.  The two swings are now moot, and I am working on my stance/setup.  I have another thread about my EE, which I quite sure is near impossible to cure for further investigation.  

 

Thanks for all the replies!