Are these guys Hall of Famers

[golfandfishing]

2 minutes ago, Simmer7 said:

Floyd won 4 Majors to Love's 1.....that's "exponentially better" when it comes to golf. Like I said there's only 19 people that have won 5 or more, 10 that have won 4, while 138 have won 1.

 

Of Davis Love's 15 other wins, 10 of them were with Partners including 2 in the Father Son. Most players other wins come in silly season and or team events. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No one is considering the Father Son or even the World Cup in his 21 win career tally when saying he belongs in the Hall of Fame. Stupid. 

[Loose_Ferrule]

11 minutes ago, golfandfishing said:

No one is considering the Father Son or even the World Cup in his 21 win career tally when saying he belongs in the Hall of Fame. Stupid. 

I never said that, I was just referring to the comment made about some of Floyds other wins and saying that Love's are basically the same. Silly season wins and partner wins.

 

If people think that Floyd and Love III had similar careers, it's ridiculous. Even Davis Love III wouldn't agree.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Simmer7

[Shilgy]

6 minutes ago, Simmer7 said:

Floyd won 4 Majors to Love's 1.....that's "exponentially better" when it comes to golf. Like I said there's only 19 people that have won 5 or more, 10 that have won 4, while 138 have won 1.

 

Of Davis Love's 15 other wins, 10 of them were with Partners including 2 in the Father Son. Most players other wins come in silly season and or team events. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Who cares about their “other wins”? Does Freddie get credit then for dominating he silly season for years? Floyd does not have 63 wins that matter. Like I said he is a worthy hall of famer  but not , in my opinion, exponentially, better.  Better win total yes but no miles ahead.  Raymond has 4 majors and one Players while Love has 1 plus 2 Players. Yes 5 is better than 3.

 

Is Love exponentially better than Lanny?

[nosedive32]

On 5/14/2021 at 3:30 PM, Enjoi said:

Just wondering what you all think on

Jason Day

Jim Furyk

Sergio Garcia

 

Hall of famers??

Sergio absolutely is. He's won a bunch around the world and has a Masters and a Players.

 

Furyk is borderline. Two more PGA Tour wins than Couples each have one major. The difference is that the hall of Fame has made clear that they consider the Players to be similar to the majors in judging if someone gets in. Couples won it twice.

 

If David Duval is not a hall of famer then Jason Day is not. Barring a career resurgence and a handful of more wins they are basically the same resume.

 

[Loose_Ferrule]

3 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Who cares about their “other wins”? Does Freddie get credit then for dominating he silly season for years? Floyd does not have 63 wins that matter. Like I said he is a worthy hall of famer  but not , in my opinion, exponentially, better.  Better win total yes but no miles ahead.  Raymond has 4 majors and one Players while Love has 1 plus 2 Players. Yes 5 is better than 3.

 

Is Love exponentially better than Lanny?

First of all, you brought up the other wins......I brought up total wins.

 

Second, my comments have nothing to do with Lanny. Someone commented that they thought that Raymond and Davis's careers were similar and I don't think they were.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Simmer7

[golfandfishing]

1 minute ago, nosedive32 said:

Sergio absolutely is. He's won a bunch around the world and has a Masters and a Players.

 

Furyk is borderline. Two more PGA Tour wins than Couples each have one major. The difference is that the hall of Fame has made clear that they consider the Players to be similar to the majors in judging if someone gets in. Couples won it twice.

 

If David Duval is not a hall of famer then Jason Day is not. Barring a career resurgence and a handful of more wins they are basically the same resume.

 

I don’t think Day or Duval get in, on top of I think falling short in wins they both had short stints where they were top players. Longevity should factor in, and that puts Furyk in IMHO. Plus Furyk was the European Ryder Cup MVP 4 or 5 times, that must count for something. 

[Shilgy]

Just now, Simmer7 said:

First of all, you brought up the other wins......

 

Second, my comments have nothing to do with Lanny. Someone commented that they thought that Raymond and Davis's careers were similar and I don't think they were.

Sure I did, when you claimed Floyd has 63 wins. Which is ludicrous to claim. Floyd had a better career than Love. Not by a ton but better. 
 

So does that mean you want Raymond to be the bottom of the barrel bare minimum or a part of the hall? Where do you draw the line?  
 

 Maybe Jack and Tiger should say they set the bar and anything below is unworthy.  Sounds silly doesn’t it? But using Floyd as bottom scraping is ridiculous as well.

[Loose_Ferrule]

1 minute ago, Shilgy said:

Sure I did, when you claimed Floyd has 63 wins. Which is ludicrous to claim. Floyd had a better career than Love. Not by a ton but better. 
 

So does that mean you want Raymond to be the bottom of the barrel bare minimum or a part of the hall? Where do you draw the line?  
 

 Maybe Jack and Tiger should say they set the bar and anything below is unworthy.  Sounds silly doesn’t it? But using Floyd as bottom scraping is ridiculous as well.

I don't care where Raymond falls in the barrel in the HOF. I don't draw the line, the HOF does.

 

My comments are their careers are not similar. If you think they are then you also must think that Koepka and Cink have had similar careers?

 

 

[Shilgy]

Maybe they should just draw a line with so many members, say 50 for playing record. So when Tiger gets in someone’s gotta go?

 

Yes, @Simmer7that is sarcasm. Let’s use another example….or even a trio….Lanny Curtis and Davis who is “deserving” of their Hall status? ? 

[dalehead]

10 hours ago, cdnglf said:

 

Seems like the Hall you want is very different from the one that exists. Kite, Couples, Stewart, Strange, Larry Nelson, Wadkins, Monty, OMeara are all in.

 

 

Exactly. Too many near greats are in. 
 

[Loose_Ferrule]

2 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Maybe they should just draw a line with so many members, say 50 for playing record. So when Tiger gets in someone’s gotta go?

 

Yes, @Simmer7that is sarcasm. Let’s use another example….or even a trio….Lanny Curtis and Davis who is “deserving” of their Hall status? ? 

I think your example of these three players is a very good one as Curtis won 1 more major but did not win a Players. So these guys are very close.  The "deserving" part is debatable for all 3. The reality is in all sports players are better than yesteryear, therefore the playing fields become more equal and we have less dominating players and then the HOF bars have to move. 

 

If I ran the HOF, I don't know if any of them would qualify.

 

 

 

 

[dalehead]

3 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Wow , that’s the whole rest of the Hall? 🧐
 

Like I said in an earlier post the Hall of Fame is the story of pro golf.  And Love is one of the top 50 or so. 
 

Here is the problem I have with the suggestion it should be the Hall of Very Best. The list gets entriched and are impossible to replace as their careers get retold and embellished over the years. So in baseball, for instance (and yes I just looked), the only guy to crack the top 10 all time that played in the last 50 years as Ken Griffey Jr.  Golf would be the same way. In fact it is even worse. Golf has grown in a high way over the years. And yet a win in 1910 is valued as highly as a win today. And even a win during the war years, when most of the normal field was away fighting a world war, is valued as highly. It’s a lot of the reason Hogan Nelson and Snead are revered.

  According to every top 10 all time list I could find Tiger is the only player to have started his career in the last 50 years. Half of them started nearly a century ago when the tour as we know it was very very young.  There is a reason most of the all time wins list is populated by guys from long ago. They shared a majority of the wins because they were very few talented golfers.  Even as late as Jack’s era many of the players each week were club pros and wannabe’s.  Is it possible they set a standard that could never be equaled?  That through some evolutionary quirk the golf gene was strong for 30 years or so and birthed the greats and has faded away?  I suppose so but I doubt it. With years of instruction and most playing the game from a very early age has the skill level has dropped over the years? 
  The problem is the hall would be an old dusty place as the list of greats becomes entrenched and irreplaceable. And their stories and careers are embellished. Like the post above claiming 63 wins for Floyd. While technically true “just” 22 of them were on the PGA Tour. The 63 includes the Skins Game and he Father Son challenge!  A nice career and Hall of Fame worthy in my book. But not exponentially better than Love. And not worthy iif we are doing a Hall of Fame of the Very Best.

 

 

Rant over, for now.  
 

 

I agree with your point that wins on the PGA Tour are much harder to come by today than in previous generations and should be more highly valued. So 20 PGA Tour wins is a reasonable standard. But the 2 majors standard sets the bar too low when you count the Players and the PGA. I think to make the Hall of Fame you have to have at least one win in the US Open, Masters, or Open Championship on your resume, in addition to Tour wins, Players and PGA’s.

[Shilgy]

11 minutes ago, dalehead said:

I agree with your point that wins on the PGA Tour are much harder to come by today than in previous generations and should be more highly valued. So 20 PGA Tour wins is a reasonable standard. But the 2 majors standard sets the bar too low when you count the Players and the PGA. I think to make the Hall of Fame you have to have at least one win in the US Open, Masters, or Open Championship on your resume, in addition to Tour wins, Players and PGA’s.

If you want equitable…..which really is impossible as the bar should shift with more great, or even very good, players then you need an LPGA type of points system.

 

But yes, the bar should move. Just as in MLB is 300 wins for the starting pitchers is the bar then close up shop because five man rotations have virtually ended that.

 

PS the PGA has a better field every year than the others…even with the club pros. So I wouldn’t think your suggestion would fly. I get the prestige of the others is greater but there are fewer players to beat.

[ChxDigLongBall]

On 5/14/2021 at 3:59 PM, SwooshLT said:

Furyk fo sho.....17 tour wins and a major? 

He also shot 58 in a tournament, albeit a par 70, and won a Fedex Cup. 

[Shilgy]

41 minutes ago, Simmer7 said:

I think your example of these three players is a very good one as Curtis won 1 more major but did not win a Players. So these guys are very close.  The "deserving" part is debatable for all 3. The reality is in all sports players are better than yesteryear, therefore the playing fields become more equal and we have less dominating players and then the HOF bars have to move. 

 

If I ran the HOF, I don't know if any of them would qualify.

 

 

 

 

This is the World Golf Hall of Fame so something would need to be added to this for the rest of the world but in my mind the PGA Tour drew the line with 20 wins getting lifetime membership.

 

Using that my line wold be 20 wins plus credit for one for each Major.  So if you have 19 wins you need a major. Want to get in with 15 wins you’ll need 5. Or maybe get extra credit for multiple major wins where 2 majors gets 3 bonus or whatever. 
 

And that is all a reaction to the other posts in this thread.

 

Personally in my mind the best group from every era get in. Using a hard line on win totals gives too little credit to how much more difficult it is to win today.

 

[smashdn]

On 5/14/2021 at 3:30 PM, Enjoi said:

Just wondering what you all think on

Jason Day

Jim Furyk

Sergio Garcia

 

Hall of famers??

 

 

Keeping in mind that I did not look up the official criteria for the WGHOF.

 

Day - No (not at this time anyway)

 

Furyk - yes, he has a major?  Also, tour wins and Ryder/President cups.

 

Garcia - Yes, same criteria as Furyk plus a Players if I am not mistaken.  Ryder Cup and Euro Tour wins.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

My gut says Sergio and Furyk yes, Day no. But I think Day could still get there. 

[johnseg]

On 5/15/2021 at 9:39 AM, Shilgy said:

The original covered the first 70 years or so of golf. Seems like you should have the best class first. Like the first baseball class was Ruth, Cobb, Honus Wagner, Crristy Mathewson and Walter Johnson.. 

 

And how did Ouimet get in??😏 One major and nothing else? Geez…

Ouimet does have two US Amateur Championships as well as 8 Walker Cup teams. That was back when the grand slam was the 2 opens and the 2 amateurs.

[Forged4ever]

Hell No, No and meh😜😝!!

 

I love Jim and he's one of the nicest guys you'd ever wanna meet, professional athlete or not, and while he's the closest to meeting the bar, I'm sorry, 17 and 1 doesn't get it done(did ya see what I did there🤪?)

 

As @golfandfishing stated, to keep using The Entitled One as the bar is asinine, though I'm sure that his is the "bottom bar" for entry in many of the voters' minds, so Jim will probably get in, and that is fine, as I said, he is as Classy as they come, though unfortunately that's not a prereq for HoF admission. 
 

That said, Sergio is barely half way home to the 20 Tour Victories, however he does have 16 Euro wins, so if they count as half of a Tour victory, that gives him 19 wins, which is still short of the 20, plus, he was a real dick through most of his career, so I'd take away 2 Victories, leaving him at 17, tied with Jimbo, who, if only one gets in cuz no friggin way that ya can have two Couples in one class, gets the nod cuz he's a great guy. 
 

Jason, though he's actually probably nicer than Jim, at least Maddie thinks so, isn't even close on qualifications.

 

I have always looked at THE best of the best as being HoF worthy, regardless of the sport. That being said, I don't look at any one of these three Players as being THE best of the best🤷🏻‍♂️

 

Stay Well My Friends👊
RP

 

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Forged4ever

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, johnseg said:

Ouimet does have two US Amateur Championships as well as 8 Walker Cup teams. That was back when the grand slam was the 2 opens and the 2 amateurs.

That was the ever present sarcasm in print.  And why I added the smiley and “geez”.

[Chip Out Sideways]

On 5/15/2021 at 5:34 AM, dalehead said:

The World Golf Hall of Fame got off to an auspicious start. Here is the list of the first inductees in 1974.

 

Walter Hagen
Ben Hogan
Bobby Jones
Byron Nelson
Jack Nicklaus
Francis Ouimet
Arnold Palmer
Gary Player
Gene Sarazen
Sam Snead
Harry Vardon

 

IMHO standards have slipped considerably since then. Fred Couples? DLIII? They belong in that company? And I’m not just picking on them, there are other members with records similar to theirs.The current standard of 15 total wins on the major world tours, including The Japan, Sunshine, Asian, and Australian tours, plus 2 wins in the majors or Players should be the minimum for consideration, not an automatic entry. Any if no one gets the required 65% of the votes there are no inductees that year.

 

As for Jason Day, Furyk, and Sergio, compare them to the original inductees and tell me what you think.

See even that original list is a bit of a joke. Why is Sir Henry Cotton missing? Why is JH Taylor missing? Why is James Braid missing? Why is Booby Locke missing? It is a list of American golfers with a nod elsewhere. No-one who knows anything about golf history surely think Oumet more deserving than those I list above, and there are many others missing.

[Chip Out Sideways]

48 minutes ago, Forged4ever said:

Hell No, No and meh😜😝!!

 

I love Jim and he's one of the nicest guys you'd ever wanna meet, professional athlete or not, and while he's the closest to meeting the bar, I'm sorry, 17 and 1 doesn't get it done(did ya see what I did there🤪?)

 

As @golfandfishing stated, to keep using The Entitled One as the bar is asinine, though I'm sure that his is the "bottom bar" for entry in many of the voters' minds, so Jim will probably get in, and that is fine, as I said, he is as Classy as they come, though unfortunately that's not a prereq for HoF admission. 
 

That said, Sergio is barely half way home to the 20 Tour Victories, however he does have 16 Euro wins, so if they count as half of a Tour victory, that gives him 19 wins, which is still short of the 20, plus, he was a real dick through most of his career, so I'd take away 2 Victories, leaving him at 17, tied with Jimbo, who, if only one gets in cuz no friggin way that ya can have two Couples in one class, gets the nod cuz he's a great guy. 
 

Jason, though he's actually probably nicer than Jim, at least Maddie thinks so, isn't even close on qualifications.

 

I have always looked at THE best of the best as being HoF worthy, regardless of the sport. That being said, I don't look at any one of these three Players as being THE best of the best🤷🏻‍♂️

 

Stay Well My Friends👊
RP

 

 

I don't often disagree with Richard's posts but I do hope the idea of counting a Euro Tour win as a half a PGA Tour win was sarcasm. If not I violently disagree! Where I do agree is that Garcia has not helped himself along the way. That said there are already members who follow pros and those in the know would not vote into the hall of even almost nice people....

[fowlerscousin]

Some yall forgot about Jim furyk 58 and 59

[Forged4ever]

1 hour ago, Chip Out Sideways said:

I don't often disagree with Richard's posts but I do hope the idea of counting a Euro Tour win as a half a PGA Tour win was sarcasm. If not I violently disagree! Where I do agree is that Garcia has not helped himself along the way. That said there are already members who follow pros and those in the know would not vote into the hall of even almost nice people....

It was said in jest as was behavior being factored into the equation for selection🤙
 

That said, I do not believe that any are HoF candidates, though if I was told to pick one of the three, it would be Jim

 

Stay Well Brotha👊

RP

Edited May 17, 2021 by Forged4ever

[BNGL]

The 😀😅😊 golf 😉😃 hall 😝of🤗 fame is a total joke. If Fred Couples can get in then Sergio and Jim are locks. Also who enshrines players while they are still active? 🤣🤑🙃😘🤓🧐😓🤬🧑‍🦲🧑‍💻🧑‍✈️

[bscinstnct]

4 hours ago, Forged4ever said:

Hell No, No and meh😜😝!!

 

I love Jim and he's one of the nicest guys you'd ever wanna meet, professional athlete or not, and while he's the closest to meeting the bar, I'm sorry, 17 and 1 doesn't get it done(did ya see what I did there🤪?)

 

As @golfandfishing stated, to keep using The Entitled One as the bar is asinine, though I'm sure that his is the "bottom bar" for entry in many of the voters' minds, so Jim will probably get in, and that is fine, as I said, he is as Classy as they come, though unfortunately that's not a prereq for HoF admission. 
 

That said, Sergio is barely half way home to the 20 Tour Victories, however he does have 16 Euro wins, so if they count as half of a Tour victory, that gives him 19 wins, which is still short of the 20, plus, he was a real dick through most of his career, so I'd take away 2 Victories, leaving him at 17, tied with Jimbo, who, if only one gets in cuz no friggin way that ya can have two Couples in one class, gets the nod cuz he's a great guy. 
 

Jason, though he's actually probably nicer than Jim, at least Maddie thinks so, isn't even close on qualifications.

 

I have always looked at THE best of the best as being HoF worthy, regardless of the sport. That being said, I don't look at any one of these three Players as being THE best of the best🤷🏻‍♂️

 

Stay Well My Friends👊
RP

 

 

 

Richarrrrrrrd!

 

My best to you and yours.

 

I made the point about FC being the low bar. I guess somebody has to be! 🤣

 

Overall, I suppose it’s not too bad. I mean, in the baseball hof it seems the bar is higher but I suppose that there are so many other stats besides “wins” to look at in baseball. A guy can be an all time great across all the offensive and defensive aspects like Mickey Mantle. Or, you can take a guy with very good offense, steals bases and plays some excellent defense. Or even a guy like the Wizard of Oz with anemic offense but brilliant defense can deserve to get in. 
 

 

But in golf, the “w” is really the bottom line. Especially majors. You can have stronger areas than others but you can’t be too weak in any or you can’t win. 
 

So, you recognize a guy with a major and 15 wins cause I suppose, considering all the thousands who have played on tour, so few have attained that much success. 
 

“It’s hard to win out here”

 

Thats sure the truth of it ; )
 

 

 

[DLBTide7]

On 5/14/2021 at 3:30 PM, Enjoi said:

Just wondering what you all think on

Jason Day

Jim Furyk

Sergio Garcia

 

Hall of famers??

By the current standards applied to admission, yes. 

[dalehead]

6 hours ago, Chip Out Sideways said:

See even that original list is a bit of a joke. Why is Sir Henry Cotton missing? Why is JH Taylor missing? Why is James Braid missing? Why is Booby Locke missing? It is a list of American golfers with a nod elsewhere. No-one who knows anything about golf history surely think Oumet more deserving than those I list above, and there are many others missing.

Actually all 4 players you mentioned are in the WGHOF. That they were not in the inaugural class seems appropriate as their records did not match up with those players. You can argue Ouimet but the historic nature of his win and its effect on golf in America carries a lot of weight.

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, DLBTide7 said:

By the current standards applied to admission, yes. 

Lol at the “current standards”.   Chi Chi is in in the same category as Jack. Love has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread but has a much better record than Lanny Wadkins.

 

Someone that met the so called bare standards of admission is just as worthy as the top dogs. Otherwise just do what I posted earlier that would stop some of this nonsense and just say there is a 50 person maximum and when someone is voted in they also vote the bottom guy out. ***

 

Does that seem more fair?

 

 

 

 

*** yes, that is a sarcastic suggestion but no worse than many of the comments on this thread. 

[grm24]

18 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Love has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread but has a much better record than Lanny Wadkins. 

Love doesn't have a "much" better career record than Lanny. 

 

DLIII - 21 PGA Tour wins. 1 major, 2 Players championships.

Lanny - 21 PGA Tour wins. 1 major, 1 Players championship.