When to go into lag mode for putting?

[SNIPERBBB]

People three putt not because they were trying to make the first putt.

 

People three putt because they hit one or two crappy putts or the course forgot to put the windmills out that day.

 

Unless the ball goes over a cliff if you miss the putt, there's no such thing as risk/reward in putting.

[Luv2kruz]

6 hours ago, DShepley said:

You want to 3 putt less....stop trying to just get it close. React to the line you've chosen.  We all have a sense of feel that's pretty ingrained. If I stood 20 feet from you and asked you to toss a ball to me, you wouldn't miss by 10 feet. It's the same as throwing a wad of paper towards the trash can...you might miss the can, but not by a wild amount. Our brains are amazing at things like that until we get in their way with instructions or doubt.  Good putters are decisive and their close misses are a result, not an intent. It's easy pickings for pros to say, 'just lag it close and you'll three putt less' but everyone I know who tries to follow this advice is still a crappy putter. Learn to read a putt and react to the read and you'll improve.

You still refuse to answer the question of why lag putting is such a large topic in instruction. Until you can refute what they say with more than "I say it aint so", then you have no standing or credibility.

[Luv2kruz]

4 hours ago, Krt22 said:

You must not have read the putting parts in depth. This thread is about putting and Broadie has a lot of data on putting that goes against the conventional “wisdom”, like kaking out the break, get it well past the hole, an 8ft uphill putt is better than a 4ft downhill putt, etc.
 

Broadie’s work is about statistics, such that you can shape your practice around improving realistic outcomes on the course. If you simply practice “getting it inside a 3ft circle”, on the course it’s going to be a wider circle since green speed, slope, nerves, etc are far more variable from hole to hole than they are on the practice green. 
 

Accepting larger variance and aiming for larger variance are two very different things. If you really want to practice speed control, accepting such a large variance in practice isn’t helpful, at the very least the goal should be to get it to the hole. 
 

 

Ill certainly go back and reread those sections and compare what Broadie recommended vs the author of the article I posted. 

[Luv2kruz]

4 hours ago, Krt22 said:

You must not have read the putting parts in depth. This thread is about putting and Broadie has a lot of data on putting that goes against the conventional “wisdom”, like kaking out the break, get it well past the hole, an 8ft uphill putt is better than a 4ft downhill putt, etc.
 

Broadie’s work is about statistics, such that you can shape your practice around improving realistic outcomes on the course. If you simply practice “getting it inside a 3ft circle”, on the course it’s going to be a wider circle since green speed, slope, nerves, etc are far more variable from hole to hole than they are on the practice green. 
 

Accepting larger variance and aiming for larger variance are two very different things. If you really want to practice speed control, accepting such a large variance in practice isn’t helpful, at the very least the goal should be to get it to the hole. 
 

 

And in short order, i found the following article from Broadie himself. The key paragraph is as follows:

 

"All of this points to another important takeaway: From shorter distances, the goal is to one-putt without putting yourself at risk of three-putting. But as the distance increases, one-putting become less likely and the goal shifts to two-putting"

 

https://golf.com/instruction/putting/how-far-should-you-leave-lag-putts/

[DShepley]

3 hours ago, pinhigh27 said:

You have no idea what they are thinking about.

 

The 3 wood comparison is because at some point you mentally accept that you probably aren't making the shot. You still try to make it, again the goal is to shoot 18, but we accept that it's not possible. 

 

This is why words matter. I'm not sure what trying to make the putt means. Fawcett talks about simply hitting the right line with the right pace and accepting the results. That's what I also believe. 

 

To me, an overemphasis on making the putt is too much of an outcomes based approach rather than a systems based approach, where an outcome defines your outlook on the situation. You could hit the putt exactly how you want on the right line and pace and if you miss it because it hit a bump or it took a bad hop and in an outcome focused thinking model, that is a failure. I would say if you hit it on your line with the right speed that is all you can do and a positive outcome. Control the things you can control. 

 

I think everyone should attempt to hit every putt with the correct line and speed. Whether you perceive that as trying to make it is individual. 

 

I will focus on the outcome that is 5x more common at 50 feet for tour pros, ie not 3 putting, than the one that is 1/5th less common, making it. When I think about the correct line and correct pace, it more enables me to not 3 putt, making the putt is icing on top. People can have different outlooks. 

 

As I said in my experience, if you tell someone they need to try and make a long putt, the vast majority will hit it harder(too hard) because they want to absolutely eliminate leaving it short as a possible outcome. 

Trying to make the putt is a conscious decision, you read the proper line and break that would make the putt.  When you get over the ball, your thought is that you are making it (Intent).  Of course you accept the outcome when you miss, BUT, your intent wasn't to miss.  THIS is why words matter.  If you lose confidence and your intent is to not three putt, eventually that will creep into shorter and shorter putts and you will find that you are 'trying to get the ball close', rather of intending to make the putt.  The goal, is to get the ball in the hole.

[SNIPERBBB]

Most first putts aren't in makeable range outside chips off the green. Look at the proximity stats from 125-150yds, on tour that's 23 feet. 50-125 isn't much better at 18 and change. That's why "lag putting" is talked about more

 

There's nothing positively magical about a lag putting mode.  It's actually negatively magical in that it accepts defeat beforehand. So you don't care enough about that first putt so you don't do what you're supposed to give yourself the best chance to make the putt and a good result is more left to luck. 

 

 

[DShepley]

46 minutes ago, Luv2kruz said:

You still refuse to answer the question of why lag putting is such a large topic in instruction. Until you can refute what they say with more than "I say it aint so", then you have no standing or credibility.

Why do some pros still teach a restricted hip motion, why do some pros teach stack and tilt, why does Graves teach Moe's swing? A lot of teachers teach different things, you'll find a million concepts on putting.  The problem with looking at stats and assuming as the distance is longer you try to 'just get it close' is a good way to create timid putters, scared putters.  You are making an assumption, (like I am), that the outcome is attached to a particular mindset, that the pros make only a small portion of long putts, so they MUST be trying to lag.  There are scenarios where they might be, but I have spoken to a lot of good putters and asked them what there intent is over the ball and NONE of the good putters I play with are trying to lag a putt....it is a result of their ability to read a green and start the ball on their intended line...the lag is a result not an intent.  Putting is about confidence and until the ball leaves your putter blade, you should have all the confidence in the world that you are going to make it,...once it leaves the blade it is out of your control.  Your question of 'When to go into lag mode?' suggests that this varies by player and it will save them strokes....what if a player can't make a 10 footer, do they 'go into lag mode', or learn to be a better putter?  Answer that one....15 feet, should you try to lag it because your stats say you aren't likely to make it...NO?! Going into LAG MODE takes the emphasis off of the goal.  Focus more time on learning to read greens, picking a higher line on long putts and reacting and I promise you that you will putt better than if you try to focus on your stats.

[DShepley]

5 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Most first putts aren't in makeable range outside chips off the green. Look at the proximity stats from 125-150yds, on tour that's 23 feet. 50-125 isn't much better at 18 and change. That's why "lag putting" is talked about more

 

There's nothing positively magical about a lag putting mode.  It's actually negatively magical in that it accepts defeat beforehand. So you don't care enough about that first putt so you don't do what you're supposed to give yourself the best chance to make the putt and a good result is more left to luck. 

 

 

This exactly! Statistically I don't have a good chance of making my 12 footer....guess I better engage LAG MODE....so silly

[pinhigh27]

1 minute ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Most first putts aren't in makeable range outside chips off the green. Look at the proximity stats from 125-150yds, on tour that's 23 feet. 50-125 isn't much better at 18 and change. That's why "lag putting" is talked about more

 

There's nothing positively magical about a lag putting mode.  It's actually negatively magical in that it accepts defeat beforehand. So you don't care enough about that first putt so you don't do what you're supposed to give yourself the best chance to make the putt and a good result is more left to luck. 

 

 

The entire way to not 3 putt is to hit good first putts (excluding obviously hitting it closer). This is a strawman argument that is being made to spew this BS roundabout stuff about intent. 

 

Lagging a putt is not lazy or lacking caring. It's just accepting realistic implications for the situation. You don't think people ever make putts trying to lag them? Or that guys sometimes pull it or push it and it goes closer to the hole on an approach shot? 

 

2 minutes ago, DShepley said:

Why do some pros still teach a restricted hip motion, why do some pros teach stack and tilt, why does Graves teach Moe's swing? A lot of teachers teach different things, you'll find a million concepts on putting.  The problem with looking at stats and assuming as the distance is longer you try to 'just get it close' is a good way to create timid putters, scared putters.  You are making an assumption, (like I am), that the outcome is attached to a particular mindset, that the pros make only a small portion of long putts, so they MUST be trying to lag.  There are scenarios where they might be, but I have spoken to a lot of good putters and asked them what there intent is over the ball and NONE of the good putters I play with are trying to lag a putt....it is a result of their ability to read a green and start the ball on their intended line...the lag is a result not an intent.  Putting is about confidence and until the ball leaves your putter blade, you should have all the confidence in the world that you are going to make it,...once it leaves the blade it is out of your control.  Your question of 'When to go into lag mode?' suggests that this varies by player and it will save them strokes....what if a player can't make a 10 footer, do they 'go into lag mode', or learn to be a better putter?  Answer that one....15 feet, should you try to lag it because your stats say you aren't likely to make it...NO?! Going into LAG MODE takes the emphasis off of the goal.  Focus more time on learning to read greens, picking a higher line on long putts and reacting and I promise you that you will putt better than if you try to focus on your stats.

 

I think people should be more timid putters generally. See a ton of people who kill the ball past the hole on first putts and wonder why they 3 putt. In putting being short is almost universally considered bad but hitting it by is ok, it's just stupid. People would 3 putt less if they left more putts short. They might 1 putt less but statistically 3 putt avoidance is more important. Being short isn't as bad as people think it is. 

 

Go tell the PGA tour players or any other professional athlete to stop looking at metrics. If they only knew what joe wrx putting guru thought, they'd putt it better! 

 

[Luv2kruz]

2 minutes ago, DShepley said:

Why do some pros still teach a restricted hip motion, why do some pros teach stack and tilt, why does Graves teach Moe's swing? A lot of teachers teach different things, you'll find a million concepts on putting.  The problem with looking at stats and assuming as the distance is longer you try to 'just get it close' is a good way to create timid putters, scared putters.  You are making an assumption, (like I am), that the outcome is attached to a particular mindset, that the pros make only a small portion of long putts, so they MUST be trying to lag.  There are scenarios where they might be, but I have spoken to a lot of good putters and asked them what there intent is over the ball and NONE of the good putters I play with are trying to lag a putt....it is a result of their ability to read a green and start the ball on their intended line...the lag is a result not an intent.  Putting is about confidence and until the ball leaves your putter blade, you should have all the confidence in the world that you are going to make it,...once it leaves the blade it is out of your control.  Your question of 'When to go into lag mode?' suggests that this varies by player and it will save them strokes....what if a player can't make a 10 footer, do they 'go into lag mode', or learn to be a better putter?  Answer that one....15 feet, should you try to lag it because your stats say you aren't likely to make it...NO?! Going into LAG MODE takes the emphasis off of the goal.  Focus more time on learning to read greens, picking a higher line on long putts and reacting and I promise you that you will putt better than if you try to focus on your stats.

So you are refuting Broadie's and Stickney's analysis and conclusions with no evidence, data or backup of your own? Sorry, their arguements are far more compelling and credible than yours.

[DShepley]

2 minutes ago, pinhigh27 said:

The entire way to not 3 putt is to hit good first putts (excluding obviously hitting it closer). This is a strawman argument that is being made to spew this BS roundabout stuff about intent. 

 

Lagging a putt is not lazy or lacking caring. It's just accepting realistic implications for the situation. You don't think people ever make putts trying to lag them? Or that guys sometimes pull it or push it and it goes closer to the hole on an approach shot? 

 

 

I think people should be more timid putters generally. See a ton of people who kill the ball past the hole on first putts and wonder why they 3 putt. In putting being short is almost universally considered bad but hitting it by is ok, it's just stupid. People would 3 putt less if they left more putts short. They might 1 putt less but statistically 3 putt avoidance is more important. Being short isn't as bad as people think it is. 

 

Go tell the PGA tour players or any other professional athlete to stop looking at metrics. If they only knew what joe wrx putting guru thought, they'd putt it better! 

 

Look, you don't know that they are looking at metrics, you don't know ANY MORE than I do what they are thinking about on their putts.  They have great speed control and read greens very well, they do this by working backwards from a target.  Do you really think that target is a 6 foot circle or do you think it's the hole.....I bet it's the hole?  DOUBT KILLS CONFIDENCE.  You want to be better at putting, read greens better and develop a stroke that strikes the ball consistently in the same spot on the face, learn to pick the conservative line when you need to and hit it aggressively, read Rotella....or make decisions based on stats while you are on the green, (just memorize them ahead of time so you aren't too slow), and try to see if luck helps you get the ball in the hole....soon you'll find yourself two putting every green.

[SNIPERBBB]

@pinhigh27

 

That's is what the OP is insisting however.  As I said, three putting isn't from trying to make the first putt, it's from making one or two crappy putts. It's usually the second one they choke from three feet. That's where I see good putters make a three putt.

[Ty_Webb]

10 hours ago, Krt22 said:

Broadie's entire method revolves around hitting the shot that gives you the best possible outcome, based on the millions of shots of data he has collected. "Getting it within 3ft" implies leaving it short is OK or that 3ft past is also OK, neither of which are ideal for making a putt.  Even if a 30-40ft putt is improbable to make, leaving it short (any length) means your make chance goes to 0, so the goal should at the very least be to get it to the hole.  If your "make" mode results in 3ft (or more) past the hole, that also isn't the best option due to "capture size", basically the faster the putt, the smaller the hole effectively gets, thus the less likely the putt with drop. Die in speed also isn't great, because once the putt slows that much, it won't hold it's line. The ideal speed for any putt is roughly 12-18" past the hole.

 

So if you go to the putting green to practice long putts and you leave some 3ft short and 3ft past and tell yourself "good job, I got em all in a 3ft circle", you really aren't doing yourself any favors.  I agree with you that good lag putting is all about speed control, but when you practice and play, the intent should be to get the ball just past the hole. 

 

If you're putting from 50 feet and you're as good as the best players in the world, you can probably reasonably expect that you can get your speed down to within around 5-6 feet of your target. If you hit 100 putts, it will look like a bell curve around your target (distance wise). If you're aiming for 12-18" past the hole, then your putts are going to wind up between 18" short and 4'6" past. You're going to hole maybe 2-3% of them. All those putts that go more than 3 feet past are risked three putts. If you make your target the hole, then you'll wind up between 3 feet short and 3 feet past. You're not likely to make fewer of them, because the longer ones will have a larger capture size at the hole and that will offset the additional putts that wind up short. If you make it your goal to never be short, then the long end of the range is going to be 6 feet past. That's really bringing three putts into range. Also not wise. 

 

Ideally if you want to know what your target should be, you should figure out how big that range of the bell curve is from each distance. Then your target can be such that if the target is past the hole, then your long end shouldn't be more than about 3 feet long. So from 15 feet, where your range is probably around 2 feet long, it's fine to aim for 18" past the hole because you'll be between 0.5 and 2.5 feet past. But downhill putts spread out that range and uphill putts narrow it down. That's why on a fast downhill putt you should aim for dead weight, potentially even from 10 feet or so. On an uphill putt you can be more aggressive because it tightens up the range and now you can aim past the hole on a 25 foot putt.

 

4 minutes ago, DShepley said:

Trying to make the putt is a conscious decision, you read the proper line and break that would make the putt.  When you get over the ball, your thought is that you are making it (Intent).  Of course you accept the outcome when you miss, BUT, your intent wasn't to miss.  THIS is why words matter.  If you lose confidence and your intent is to not three putt, eventually that will creep into shorter and shorter putts and you will find that you are 'trying to get the ball close', rather of intending to make the putt.  The goal, is to get the ball in the hole.

 

I think most of this is semantics. For example, there is virtually never a putt that I don't *want* to hole. I always want them to go in. In my view, "trying to make it" is synonymous with "never leave it short". As I explained up there ^ never leave it short is a recipe for suboptimal outcomes. 

 

Let me ask you this - if you have a 40 foot putt and you hit it a foot away from the hole, are you upset that you failed? Or do you think that was pretty good (it's gaining strokes on the PGA tour)? If the answer is that you're upset you failed, then I guess you really were trying to make it. But that doesn't strike me as a good way to stay positive about your putting. If the answer is that you think it was pretty good, then I'd say you were hoping to make it, but not expecting to. 

 

I do agree that the target should never be short of the hole (except in the unusual situation where there is death just past the hole). But I think OP's question is more of a when should my target change from past the hole to at the hole. For me the answer to that question varies on the situation and how I'm playing that day. 

 

Last thing I'll say is I suspect that the people you cite who putt poorly because they're trying to lag it have a mindset that the end of their range is at the hole. They're afraid to hit it past. I think it has to do with looking at the putt as covering the ground between the ball and the hole. That's the "arena" in which the shot is going to be played, so it's going to stop in that arena. They wind up short the whole time as a result and it looks like they're never trying to hole it. I think they'd be better served by becoming aware that there is green past the hole and it's fine if the ball winds up there. If they understand that the ball can get past the hole, then they'll hit it a bit harder and putt better. 

[DShepley]

1 minute ago, Luv2kruz said:

So you are refuting Broadie's and Stickney's analysis and conclusions with no evidence, data or backup of your own? Sorry, their arguements are far more compelling and credible than yours.

Are you a good putter? Have you asked good putters what they think about.  Go around your club and ask the match play champion, club champion if they know their make percentage.....You save strokes by improving skills, if your metrics tell you that you three putt a lot from 30 feet, trying NOT to three putt isn't going to help you.  Trying to hit it close isn't going to have any measurable effect because you haven't FIXED the reason why you have poor speed control, (which is probably due to poor green reading or a poor stroke).

[DShepley]

4 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

If you're putting from 50 feet and you're as good as the best players in the world, you can probably reasonably expect that you can get your speed down to within around 5-6 feet of your target. If you hit 100 putts, it will look like a bell curve around your target (distance wise). If you're aiming for 12-18" past the hole, then your putts are going to wind up between 18" short and 4'6" past. You're going to hole maybe 2-3% of them. All those putts that go more than 3 feet past are risked three putts. If you make your target the hole, then you'll wind up between 3 feet short and 3 feet past. You're not likely to make fewer of them, because the longer ones will have a larger capture size at the hole and that will offset the additional putts that wind up short. If you make it your goal to never be short, then the long end of the range is going to be 6 feet past. That's really bringing three putts into range. Also not wise. 

 

Ideally if you want to know what your target should be, you should figure out how big that range of the bell curve is from each distance. Then your target can be such that if the target is past the hole, then your long end shouldn't be more than about 3 feet long. So from 15 feet, where your range is probably around 2 feet long, it's fine to aim for 18" past the hole because you'll be between 0.5 and 2.5 feet past. But downhill putts spread out that range and uphill putts narrow it down. That's why on a fast downhill putt you should aim for dead weight, potentially even from 10 feet or so. On an uphill putt you can be more aggressive because it tightens up the range and now you can aim past the hole on a 25 foot putt.

 

 

I think most of this is semantics. For example, there is virtually never a putt that I don't *want* to hole. I always want them to go in. In my view, "trying to make it" is synonymous with "never leave it short". As I explained up there ^ never leave it short is a recipe for suboptimal outcomes. 

 

Let me ask you this - if you have a 40 foot putt and you hit it a foot away from the hole, are you upset that you failed? Or do you think that was pretty good (it's gaining strokes on the PGA tour)? If the answer is that you're upset you failed, then I guess you really were trying to make it. But that doesn't strike me as a good way to stay positive about your putting. If the answer is that you think it was pretty good, then I'd say you were hoping to make it, but not expecting to. 

 

I do agree that the target should never be short of the hole (except in the unusual situation where there is death just past the hole). But I think OP's question is more of a when should my target change from past the hole to at the hole. For me the answer to that question varies on the situation and how I'm playing that day. 

 

Last thing I'll say is I suspect that the people you cite who putt poorly because they're trying to lag it have a mindset that the end of their range is at the hole. They're afraid to hit it past. I think it has to do with looking at the putt as covering the ground between the ball and the hole. That's the "arena" in which the shot is going to be played, so it's going to stop in that arena. They wind up short the whole time as a result and it looks like they're never trying to hole it. I think they'd be better served by becoming aware that there is green past the hole and it's fine if the ball winds up there. If they understand that the ball can get past the hole, then they'll hit it a bit harder and putt better. 

I think people putt poorly when they are simply 'trying to get it close' because their focus isn't narrow enough, the goal shifts to a larger area which creates a larger potential miss.  The accepting to 'get it close' as a result creeps into shorter and shorter putts until they are trying to lag putts from distances that they have a reasonable chance of making them from.  I feel that the pros and best putters we know are choosing a line and associated speed that will give the putt the best chance to go in, they intend to make the putt and accept the outcome.  Their skill and preparation results in the short next putt if they miss.  I don't think they have a lag mode, (except in rare scenarios where long is dead).  I'm not saying that make mode requires a stroke that hits it well past the hole, hitting it harder trying to make it is a fast way to become / stay a bad putter, fearing long putts because of stats and introducing a 'lag mode' mentality is also a quick way to undermine confidence and become a poor putter.  Pick a line and be confident...that's what I'm saying.

[pinhigh27]

8 minutes ago, DShepley said:

Are you a good putter? Have you asked good putters what they think about.  Go around your club and ask the match play champion, club champion if they know their make percentage.....You save strokes by improving skills, if your metrics tell you that you three putt a lot from 30 feet, trying NOT to three putt isn't going to help you.  Trying to hit it close isn't going to have any measurable effect because you haven't FIXED the reason why you have poor speed control, (which is probably due to poor green reading or a poor stroke).

Just because good players at your course don't know about something doesn't mean it's not beneficial...

 

Perhaps someone could become the best player at their club turning over rocks that other people aren't willing to.

 

You can improve your putting skill by having reasonable expectations from understanding stats. 

 

I don't get the stat hate. No one says you should stand over the ball and say " This putt is 48.2 feet and the slope is 1.5 % so I have a 1.3 % chance of making it" 

 

Yes if the metrics tell you that you 3 putt a lot from 30 feet, I would think the goal would be to not 3 putt and figure out how to do that. Seems pretty simple. 

[SNIPERBBB]

20 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

If you're putting from 50 feet and you're as good as the best players in the world, you can probably reasonably expect that you can get your speed down to within around 5-6 feet of your target. If you hit 100 putts, it will look like a bell curve around your target (distance wise). If you're aiming for 12-18" past the hole, then your putts are going to wind up between 18" short and 4'6" past. You're going to hole maybe 2-3% of them. All those putts that go more than 3 feet past are risked three putts. If you make your target the hole, then you'll wind up between 3 feet short and 3 feet past. You're not likely to make fewer of them, because the longer ones will have a larger capture size at the hole and that will offset the additional putts that wind up short. If you make it your goal to never be short, then the long end of the range is going to be 6 feet past. That's really bringing three putts into range. Also not wise. 

 

Ideally if you want to know what your target should be, you should figure out how big that range of the bell curve is from each distance. Then your target can be such that if the target is past the hole, then your long end shouldn't be more than about 3 feet long. So from 15 feet, where your range is probably around 2 feet long, it's fine to aim for 18" past the hole because you'll be between 0.5 and 2.5 feet past. But downhill putts spread out that range and uphill putts narrow it down. That's why on a fast downhill putt you should aim for dead weight, potentially even from 10 feet or so. On an uphill putt you can be more aggressive because it tightens up the range and now you can aim past the hole on a 25 foot putt.

 

 

I think most of this is semantics. For example, there is virtually never a putt that I don't *want* to hole. I always want them to go in. In my view, "trying to make it" is synonymous with "never leave it short". As I explained up there ^ never leave it short is a recipe for suboptimal outcomes. 

 

Let me ask you this - if you have a 40 foot putt and you hit it a foot away from the hole, are you upset that you failed? Or do you think that was pretty good (it's gaining strokes on the PGA tour)? If the answer is that you're upset you failed, then I guess you really were trying to make it. But that doesn't strike me as a good way to stay positive about your putting. If the answer is that you think it was pretty good, then I'd say you were hoping to make it, but not expecting to. 

 

I do agree that the target should never be short of the hole (except in the unusual situation where there is death just past the hole). But I think OP's question is more of a when should my target change from past the hole to at the hole. For me the answer to that question varies on the situation and how I'm playing that day. 

 

Last thing I'll say is I suspect that the people you cite who putt poorly because they're trying to lag it have a mindset that the end of their range is at the hole. They're afraid to hit it past. I think it has to do with looking at the putt as covering the ground between the ball and the hole. That's the "arena" in which the shot is going to be played, so it's going to stop in that arena. They wind up short the whole time as a result and it looks like they're never trying to hole it. I think they'd be better served by becoming aware that there is green past the hole and it's fine if the ball winds up there. If they understand that the ball can get past the hole, then they'll hit it a bit harder and putt better. 

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by SNIPERBBB

[Luv2kruz]

7 minutes ago, DShepley said:

Are you a good putter? Have you asked good putters what they think about.  Go around your club and ask the match play champion, club champion if they know their make percentage.....You save strokes by improving skills, if your metrics tell you that you three putt a lot from 30 feet, trying NOT to three putt isn't going to help you.  Trying to hit it close isn't going to have any measurable effect because you haven't FIXED the reason why you have poor speed control, (which is probably due to poor green reading or a poor stroke).

Firstly, I am the club champion (more than once) at my club. I keep detailed stats and know all my make percentages from each distance range. My index fluctuates between below and above scratch, depending on how much i play and practice. At my level, I know what makes me succesful, especially when it comes to lag putting.

 

But my credibility and skill level is not the issue here. I am reviewing and intepretting the work of others who I believe have raised an interesting observation. I instruct others and those ideas might help some of my higher handicappers. Thats why Im asking if ive interpretted the original data correctly. Im seeking understanding. But i will take the advice of an 8 time major winner and data scientists like Broadie before i will someone on here that can't back up their opinions with equally qualified people who think otherwise.

 

 

[north_east_pro]

I'll lag a 30+ foot putt when I can't read the line. 

[DShepley]

18 minutes ago, Luv2kruz said:

Firstly, I am the club champion (more than once) at my club. I keep detailed stats and know all my make percentages from each distance range. My index fluctuates between below and above scratch, depending on how much i play and practice. At my level, I know what makes me succesful, especially when it comes to lag putting.

 

But my credibility and skill level is not the issue here. I am reviewing and intepretting the work of others who I believe have raised an interesting observation. I instruct others and those ideas might help some of my higher handicappers. Thats why Im asking if ive interpretted the original data correctly. Im seeking understanding. But i will take the advice of an 8 time major winner and data scientists like Broadie before i will someone on here that can't back up their opinions with equally qualified people who think otherwise.

 

 

But you asked people here so.....  Looking at your initial post, you said that the stats show that the Mid Handicap players should go into 'Lag Mode' on putts starting at 15 feet, and that High Handicappers should go into 'Lag Mode' on putts starting at 6 feet.  Now.....as a club champion, do you think this is a correct approach to help these players improve?  If you are instructing others and this is the advice you are giving because 'STATS', I would suggest the players run as far from you as possible and learn that lag putting is a result and not an intent.  Learn to work to the smallest possible target.  Poor putters and high handicap players putt poorly because they lack the fundamentals that create speed control.  They typically don't read enough break and don't have strokes that strike the ball in a consistent spot on the face.  Engaging Lag Mode and accepting that getting it close is the goal isn't going to fix this.  They will continue to be just as crappy trying to putt a 40 footer to 3 feet as they were trying to make it and the larger target possibly creates a bigger miss (these players aren't trying to hit it 6 feet past).  In what world would you EVER suggest that a player is better off lagging a putt from 15 feet or worse yet 6 feet because stats say it will make them better (there is a ceiling to that improvement)?

Edited May 18, 2021 by DShepley

[SNIPERBBB]

The problem is you're talking about just the philosophy/strategy rather than how you get the result.  Most people that are serious are more interested in the method.  I haven't invested time and money in working on my stroke and reading greens just to face a 40+ ft and go  welp I guess I'll just try to hit the ball X distance and hope it's less than Y from the hole. It's rediculous. And that's exactly what most ams that don't go to instructors or read this forum think lag putting is.  And that's why I oppose it. 

 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

12 hours ago, Krt22 said:

Broadie's entire method revolves around hitting the shot that gives you the best possible outcome, based on the millions of shots of data he has collected. "Getting it within 3ft" implies leaving it short is OK or that 3ft past is also OK, neither of which are ideal for making a putt.  Even if a 30-40ft putt is improbable to make, leaving it short (any length) means your make chance goes to 0, so the goal should at the very least be to get it to the hole.  If your "make" mode results in 3ft (or more) past the hole, that also isn't the best option due to "capture size", basically the faster the putt, the smaller the hole effectively gets, thus the less likely the putt with drop. Die in speed also isn't great, because once the putt slows that much, it won't hold it's line. The ideal speed for any putt is roughly 12-18" past the hole.

 

So if you go to the putting green to practice long putts and you leave some 3ft short and 3ft past and tell yourself "good job, I got em all in a 3ft circle", you really aren't doing yourself any favors.  I agree with you that good lag putting is all about speed control, but when you practice and play, the intent should be to get the ball just past the hole. 

 

7 hours ago, Krt22 said:

You must not have read the putting parts in depth. This thread is about putting and Broadie has a lot of data on putting that goes against the conventional “wisdom”, like kaking out the break, get it well past the hole, an 8ft uphill putt is better than a 4ft downhill putt, etc.
 

Broadie’s work is about statistics, such that you can shape your practice around improving realistic outcomes on the course. If you simply practice “getting it inside a 3ft circle”, on the course it’s going to be a wider circle since green speed, slope, nerves, etc are far more variable from hole to hole than they are on the practice green. 
 

Accepting larger variance and aiming for larger variance are two very different things. If you really want to practice speed control, accepting such a large variance in practice isn’t helpful, at the very least the goal should be to get it to the hole. 
 

 

 

I haven't read Broadie, so I'm going to have to ask for your read on what he says. I can take your stated interpretation two ways:

1. Broadie says that your intent should always be to reach the hole and then some. Therefore if you look at your dispersion on long putts and it's 33% short of the hole and 66% past the hole, you should be hitting the ball harder until you are almost 0% short of the hole, because those 33% have zero chance to go in.
2. Broadie says that your aim point on all putts should be distance control where your target is 12-18" beyond the hole, and that's true whether it's a 3-footer or a 38-footer. Due to dispersion, that means you'll never leave a 3-footer short, but you may leave some percentage of 38-footers short, and that's an acceptable miss, but you should be biased to leaving them long rather than short. 

If he's saying #2, I think that's fair. You're slightly shifting your dispersion center point to bias yourself to make a few more putts, without shifting it so much that you never leave a long putt short. 

 

If he's saying #1, I'd be inclined to disagree. 

[DShepley]

2 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

The problem is you're talking about just the philosophy/strategy rather than how you get the result.  Most people that are serious are more interested in the method.  I haven't invested time and money in working on my stroke and reading greens just to face a 40+ ft and go  welp I guess I'll just try to hit the ball X distance and hope it's less than Y from the hole. It's rediculous. And that's exactly what most ams that don't go to instructors or read this forum think lag putting is.  And that's why I oppose it. 

 

 

Ding ding ding....winner! (I don't have a prize for you though)

[Luv2kruz]

 

10 minutes ago, DShepley said:

But you asked people here so.....  Looking at your initial post, you said that the stats show that the Mid Handicap players should go into 'Lag Mode' on putts starting at 15 feet, and that High Handicappers should go into 'Lag Mode' on putts starting at 6 feet.  Now.....as a club champion, do you think this is a correct approach to help these players improve?  If you are instructing others and this is the advice you are giving because 'STATS', I would suggest the players run as far from you as possible and learn that lag putting is a result and not an intent.  Learn to work to the smallest possible target.  Poor putters and high handicap players putt poorly because they lack the fundamentals that create speed control.  They typically don't read enough break and don't have strokes that strike the ball in a consistent spot on the face.  Engaging Lag Mode and accepting that getting it close is the goal isn't going to fix this.  They will continue to be just as crappy trying to putt a 40 footer to 3 feet as they were trying to make it and the larger target possibly creates a bigger miss (these players aren't trying to hit it 6 feet past).  In what world would you EVER suggest that a player is better off lagging a putt from 15 feet or worse yet 6 feet because stats say it will make them better (there is a ceiling to that improvement)?

 

I have never given the advice to lag putt inside 20 ft, that's why I found the data and suggestion surprising. But I am open minded to reevaluate my knowledge and beliefs. I asked people here whether I'm interpreting the data correctly with assumption that they would back up their opinions with credible evidence to the contrary (either articles or expert corroboration). You haven't done that or sufficiently explained why the interpretation is incorrect. You further detract from your credibility by saying outrageous things like Tom Watson 'gives crap advice' and dismissing Broadie's clear cut statement that 'the goal is two putting from long range'. So when it comes to assessing the more provocative idea of lag putting from closer than 20ft, it very hard to take anything you say seriously.

 

 

[DShepley]

6 minutes ago, Luv2kruz said:

 

 

I have never given the advice to lag putt inside 20 ft, that's why I found the data and suggestion surprising. But I am open minded to reevaluate my knowledge and beliefs. I asked people here whether I'm interpreting the data correctly with assumption that they would back up their opinions with credible evidence to the contrary (either articles or expert corroboration). You haven't done that or sufficiently explained why the interpretation is incorrect. You further detract from your credibility by saying outrageous things like Tom Watson 'gives crap advice' and dismissing Broadie's clear cut statement that 'the goal is two putting from long range'. So when it comes to assessing the more provocative idea of lag putting from closer than 20ft, it very hard to take anything you say seriously.

 

 

Lag from 6 feet for a high handicapper and 15 feet for a mid handicapper and it's hard to take me seriously.......I would say you are interpreting the stats incorrectly for sure.  Fix the problem that creates the poor speed control, that doesn't happen on it's own by accepting a 'lag mentality'.  You are a club champion, (I have also won multiple), do you putt that way? Would you have become a club champion or scratch golfer if you did?  If you are a club champion and carry an index that floats around scratch, you are at least a pretty good putter.  You shouldn't need to ask a web forum if an outlandish idea like lagging from 6 feet is a good idea!

Edited May 18, 2021 by DShepley

[Ty_Webb]

8 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

 

I haven't read Broadie, so I'm going to have to ask for your read on what he says. I can take your stated interpretation two ways:

1. Broadie says that your intent should always be to reach the hole and then some. Therefore if you look at your dispersion on long putts and it's 33% short of the hole and 66% past the hole, you should be hitting the ball harder until you are almost 0% short of the hole, because those 33% have zero chance to go in.
2. Broadie says that your aim point on all putts should be distance control where your target is 12-18" beyond the hole, and that's true whether it's a 3-footer or a 38-footer. Due to dispersion, that means you'll never leave a 3-footer short, but you may leave some percentage of 38-footers short, and that's an acceptable miss, but you should be biased to leaving them long rather than short. 

If he's saying #2, I think that's fair. You're slightly shifting your dispersion center point to bias yourself to make a few more putts, without shifting it so much that you never leave a long putt short. 

 

If he's saying #1, I'd be inclined to disagree. 

 

From outside 30 feet I'd expect he'd say you should leave as many short as you get past the hole. Maybe a handful more. The problem is that a putt that's going 5-6 feet past the hole probably isn't going in either because the capture size of the hole at that speed is really small. You should center your shot pattern on the hole from that distance. You'll hole probably about the same number of putts as if you aim for 18" past the hole and you'll three putt less often. 33 feet I think is where tour players on average 3 putt more than 1 putt. It's much easier to reduce the number of three putts than it is to increase the number of one putts. So that's what you should focus on.

 

I'd also say you should keep your own stats and pay attention. If you three putt 15% of your 30-40 foot putts, that's not good. So look at why. Are you leaving them 5 feet short a lot and missing the next? Hit it harder. Are you hitting them five feet past a lot and missing the next? Hit is softer. Are you missing both short and long by 5 feet? Work on your speed control. Are you missing wide? Work on your green reading. Are you missing 2-3 footers a lot? Work on those. Trying to bake this all into a one size fits all is a mistake.

[Luv2kruz]

 

1 minute ago, DShepley said:

Lag from 6 feet for a high handicapper and 15 feet for a mid handicapper and it's hard to take me seriously.......I would say you are interpreting the stats incorrectly for sure.  Fix the problem that creates the poor speed control, that doesn't happen on it's own by accepting a 'lag mentality'.  You are a club champion, (I have also won multiple), do you putt that way.  If you are a club champion and carry an index that floats around scratch, you are at least a pretty good putter.  You shouldn't need to ask a web forum if an outlandish idea like lagging from 6 feet is a good idea!

 

Yes, I'm clearly learning why I shouldn't ask a web forum about such ideas. 

[DShepley]

3 minutes ago, Luv2kruz said:

 

 

Yes, I'm clearly learning why I shouldn't ask a web forum about such ideas. 

You didn't get to scratch by ever lagging from 6 feet, no one did, Tom Watson included

[SNIPERBBB]

12 minutes ago, Luv2kruz said:

 

 

I have never given the advice to lag putt inside 20 ft, that's why I found the data and suggestion surprising. But I am open minded to reevaluate my knowledge and beliefs. I asked people here whether I'm interpreting the data correctly with assumption that they would back up their opinions with credible evidence to the contrary (either articles or expert corroboration). You haven't done that or sufficiently explained why the interpretation is incorrect. You further detract from your credibility by saying outrageous things like Tom Watson 'gives crap advice' and dismissing Broadie's clear cut statement that 'the goal is two putting from long range'. So when it comes to assessing the more provocative idea of lag putting from closer than 20ft, it very hard to take anything you say seriously.

 

 

Goals are not methods. They're not even strategy. It's like the common thing here to say is "no three putts". Duh. How do you stop the three outrage? That's a bit more useful.

 

[Luv2kruz]

21 minutes ago, DShepley said:

You didn't get to scratch by ever lagging from 6 feet, no one did, Tom Watson included

This isn't about getting to scratch. This is about enabling high handicappers to be better than they were yesterday. They can change technical skill, mindset, strategy and other variables. The question is at what point does each of those factors play a bigger role in improvement.