Funny Story....Rule disagreement on 9th hole...I wanted to quit Golf

[jimbo123]

5 hours ago, antip said:

Agree, unless this is that obscure creature in 21.4 Three Ball Match Play. Then you can get player 1 and player 2 to replay, you are playing against their second balls, but player 2 is playing against player 1's first ball - player 1 must keep two separate balls in play in the separate matches. 

Has anyone ever indulged in this creature? 

 

Wow, that is obscure.  21.4 seems to address playing out of turn, though it does seem like the logic would apply to playing from the wrong place as well; is that written down anywhere? 

[davep043]

4 hours ago, Augster said:

There is no requirement to drop in the fairway. It is only part of E-5 because, in most cases, it’s the most advantageous drop. You are allowed to drop anywhere on the arc between point of entry (for OB) and 2CL’s in the fairway, no closer. 
 

While almost all the time a player will drop in the fairway, some of the time it is better strategy to drop somewhere in the rough depending on hole design, angles, tree locations etc. 

I thought it might help to put the diagram here, for those who don't know where to look for it.  The descriptions of this in much of the thread seem like a weird game of "telephone", where "I heard from a friend that his pro said that....", and the entire rule is completely warped by the time it gets discussed in here.  

For those who actually want to read it all for themselves, its Local Rule E-5 , found in the Committee Procedures - Model Local Rules.

[Exactice808]

5 hours ago, davep043 said:

I thought it might help to put the diagram here, for those who don't know where to look for it.  The descriptions of this in much of the thread seem like a weird game of "telephone", where "I heard from a friend that his pro said that....", and the entire rule is completely warped by the time it gets discussed in here.  

For those who actually want to read it all for themselves, its Local Rule E-5 , found in the Committee Procedures - Model Local Rules.

HOLY Smokes this looks almost exactly what happened in diagram to the photo I posted.  So with that I seems I did drop in the correct spot.  And I counted the strokes right.

 

 

UGH..... what a crazy day..... of rules and golf.

[ChaosTheory]

If the green was deep enough, and the OB was close enough to the pin that the arc intersects the green, can you drop on the green?  I am assuming not, but hey, might as well clarify.

[rogolf]

3 minutes ago, Snowman9000 said:

If the green was deep enough, and the OB was close enough to the pin that the arc intersects the green, can you drop on the green?  I am assuming not, but hey, might as well clarify.

See the post above with the diagram from the Rule book, last column on the right, last bullet point says, "must be in the general area".  The putting green is not in the general area.

[antip]

11 hours ago, jimbo123 said:

 

Wow, that is obscure.  21.4 seems to address playing out of turn, though it does seem like the logic would apply to playing from the wrong place as well; is that written down anywhere? 

I'm not following your question - wrong place is not a voluntary recall by opponent situation.

[jimbo123]

28 minutes ago, antip said:

I'm not following your question - wrong place is not a voluntary recall by opponent situation.

Ah, gotcha, thanks.  In that case I’m confused why you raised 21.4 in a thread about wrong place?  Sorry if I’m missing something obvious. 

[ChaosTheory]

3 hours ago, rogolf said:

See the post above with the diagram from the Rule book, last column on the right, last bullet point says, "must be in the general area".  The putting green is not in the general area.

If the green extends to point B, then what?  This could easily be the case on a par 3.

[nsxguy]

On 5/17/2021 at 7:49 PM, Exactice808 said:

Thank you so much!  I have something stupid to say.... I never heard this way of counting strokes before, seriously.... That TOTALLY makes sense though! OMG.  Im going to use this going forward.

 

So now I didnt have to get into the weeds.  Holy smokes!!!! Light bulb. God I love these forums! 

 

If it makes it any easier to remember, when using E-5, you can just "make believe" you took your stroke and distance and hit the next shot where you just dropped it. 

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Snowman9000 said:

If the green extends to point B, then what?  This could easily be the case on a par 3.

 

Then Point B would NOT be where it is in the diagram.

 

It would be further left of where it shows on the USGA diagram.

[nsxguy]

So given the mock up by Exactice, I took the screen shot and attempted to diagram as per the USGA diagram.

 

Note "The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point."

 

While it's difficult, if not impossible to see exactly where the fairway is, in my mock up of our young friend's situation, it appears that Point B could be a little bit further away than Point C.

 

If that is the case, the arc between Point A (Ball Ref Pt) and Point C should be on the right (looking at the picture).

 

I am assuming here that the fairway ends where the green begins and does not encircle the green. Now since the rule states "cut to fairway height" I guess it depends on how the surface surrounding the green is cut.

 

If the grass around the green IS cut to fairway height the Fairway Ref Pt could be at D or E, no ?

 

 

 

[antip]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

So given the mock up by Exactice, I took the screen shot and attempted to diagram as per the USGA diagram.

 

Note "The point of fairway of the hole being played that is nearest to the ball reference point, but is not nearer the hole than the ball reference point."

 

While it's difficult, if not impossible to see exactly where the fairway is, in my mock up of our young friend's situation, it appears that Point B could be a little bit further away than Point C.

 

If that is the case, the arc between Point A (Ball Ref Pt) and Point C should be on the right (looking at the picture).

 

I am assuming here that the fairway ends where the green begins and does not encircle the green. Now since the rule states "cut to fairway height" I guess it depends on how the surface surrounding the green is cut.

 

If the grass around the green IS cut to fairway height the Fairway Ref Pt could be at D or E, no ?

 

 

 

My read of the picture is the edge of the fairway is the cut that goes very close to both bunkers and is just inside the trunk of those few palms behind the green. It appears to me that E is nearer the hole than A but D looks about right - and given the relief area extends two more club lengths past D on the arc, the dropped location looks legit. But you would really need to be on the spot to affirm all this detail.

[antip]

7 hours ago, jimbo123 said:

Ah, gotcha, thanks.  In that case I’m confused why you raised 21.4 in a thread about wrong place?  Sorry if I’m missing something obvious. 

I was following up Sawgrass' post reference to match play recall rights.

[jimbo123]

14 minutes ago, antip said:

I was following up Sawgrass' post reference to match play recall rights.

Does 21.4 extend to recalling shots played from outside the teeing area?  That’s what I should have asked originally; I confused playing outside the teeing area from playing from wrong place (learned something at least) 

[antip]

44 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

Does 21.4 extend to recalling shots played from outside the teeing area?  That’s what I should have asked originally; I confused playing outside the teeing area from playing from wrong place (learned something at least) 

Yes, it is a potential situation related to recall situations in match play, which includes hitting from outside the teeing area but also playing out of order. Under three ball match play if one person plays out of order re both of the opponents, each opponent has a discretion whether to recall and are under no obligation to agree with the other person - hence the possible need for a player to keep more than one ball live. Things could get truly ugly (read 'MGA quiz material') if it happened repeatedly on the play of the same hole. 

[jimbo123]

16 minutes ago, antip said:

Yes, it is a potential situation related to recall situations in match play, which includes hitting from outside the teeing area but also playing out of order. Under three ball match play if one person plays out of order re both of the opponents, each opponent has a discretion whether to recall and are under no obligation to agree with the other person - hence the possible need for a player to keep more than one ball live. Things could get truly ugly (read 'MGA quiz material') if it happened repeatedly on the play of the same hole. 

Right, that’s what it says about playing out of order. I’m wondering what the procedure is in other recall situations. If one opponent wants to recall a shot played from outside the teeing area and the other opponent doesn’t, what happens?  

[antip]

15 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:

Right, that’s what it says about playing out of order. I’m wondering what the procedure is in other recall situations. If one opponent wants to recall a shot played from outside the teeing area and the other opponent doesn’t, what happens?  

They are separate matches, both need to proceed according to the rules - result above is a player has two balls live until the hole is finished. 

This is all a dry discussion though, I know no-one who has ever played three ball match play in this country.

[jimbo123]

16 minutes ago, antip said:

They are separate matches, both need to proceed according to the rules - result above is a player has two balls live until the hole is finished. 

This is all a dry discussion though, I know no-one who has ever played three ball match play in this country.

Yeah, interesting way to reinforce some points on regular match play rules though, thanks for engaging 

[davep043]

20 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

HOLY Smokes this looks almost exactly what happened in diagram to the photo I posted.  So with that I seems I did drop in the correct spot.  And I counted the strokes right.

 

 

UGH..... what a crazy day..... of rules and golf.

This is why the most common suggestion concerning rules is "Look it up for yourself".  How strange, the Rules provide exact guidance on exactly the situation you were asking about!  In this case, you knew to utilize the Model Local Rule, now you've learned where to look within the Rules of Golf to find the actual Rule.  All Model Local Rules are in Section 8 of Committee Procedures.  Knowing that, you could have looked it up on your phone at the time (or in the clubhouse after playing, so as not to hold up play).  You could also have refuted @snowman, whose response from Monday wasn't quite correct, saying that you HAD to drop in the fairway.  @Augster had some really good advice, knowledge of the rules will help you to KNOW your correct score.  You can't learn the rules all at once, but you CAN learn how to use the RoG app to research the rules when a situation arises.

[nsxguy]

6 hours ago, antip said:

They are separate matches, both need to proceed according to the rules - result above is a player has two balls live until the hole is finished. 

This is all a dry discussion though, I know no-one who has ever played three ball match play in this country.

 

From prior posts of yours it seems match play doesn't happen much at all in Oz. At least not in organized comps.

 

So here in the USA you actually have (casual) 4-ball match play. I don't know how common it actually is but I've played in a 4-some where everybody had matches against everybody else.

 

As far as I can recall nobody ever recalled a shot. We simply played ready golf.

[Exactice808]

4 hours ago, davep043 said:

This is why the most common suggestion concerning rules is "Look it up for yourself".  How strange, the Rules provide exact guidance on exactly the situation you were asking about!  In this case, you knew to utilize the Model Local Rule, now you've learned where to look within the Rules of Golf to find the actual Rule.  All Model Local Rules are in Section 8 of Committee Procedures.  Knowing that, you could have looked it up on your phone at the time (or in the clubhouse after playing, so as not to hold up play).  You could also have refuted @snowman, whose response from Monday wasn't quite correct, saying that you HAD to drop in the fairway.  @Augster had some really good advice, knowledge of the rules will help you to KNOW your correct score.  You can't learn the rules all at once, but you CAN learn how to use the RoG app to research the rules when a situation arises.

I have to admit, either my buddy is starting to get old and I need to "Audit" (as prior mention he is our go to rules guy LOL) or I really need to read or have the App ready at a moments notice.  I admit after the 9th was complete, I was on my cell looking up the rules trying to make sense. BUT I admit, The mental damage was done,

 

I was playing bad to begin with, but the 9 was basically a concession, but arguing about the score for the next couple of holes.  I couldn't keep it together and collapsed the next 4 holes  

 

Again by the 12 hole I told my buddy I wanted chop my golf bag in half. After I accepted it was a 10 (just to get over it) , on the 14th hole I settled down and thankfully Pared the last 3 holes to swim out everything.  We finally settled it at the bar ultimately. But again. I admit the mental damage was done.  This is a great lesson for me, as I can see this as a weakness that I need to address....

 

I also admit this frustrates the game more. Its bad enough my game stinks but now I have to deal with rule ARRRGGHH LOL!

 

Thank you again though, I will be getting the app downloaded!

 

[Sawgrass]

1 hour ago, Exactice808 said:

I have to admit, either my buddy is starting to get old and I need to "Audit" (as prior mention he is our go to rules guy LOL) or I really need to read or have the App ready at a moments notice.  I admit after the 9th was complete, I was on my cell looking up the rules trying to make sense. BUT I admit, The mental damage was done,

 

I was playing bad to begin with, but the 9 was basically a concession, but arguing about the score for the next couple of holes.  I couldn't keep it together and collapsed the next 4 holes  

 

Again by the 12 hole I told my buddy I wanted chop my golf bag in half. After I accepted it was a 10 (just to get over it) , on the 14th hole I settled down and thankfully Pared the last 3 holes to swim out everything.  We finally settled it at the bar ultimately. But again. I admit the mental damage was done.  This is a great lesson for me, as I can see this as a weakness that I need to address....

 

I also admit this frustrates the game more. Its bad enough my game stinks but now I have to deal with rule ARRRGGHH LOL!

 

Thank you again though, I will be getting the app downloaded!

 

Next time you’re in a match and not sure of your score, instead of agreeing to the 10 (which thereafter becomes gospel) insist on the 9 and let your opponent make a claim.  If he doesn’t, your 9 stands.  If he does but you’re proved right, your 9 stands. You’ve got nothing to loose, and the “aggravation factor” might switch to your opponent.  

[Exactice808]

4 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

Next time you’re in a match and not sure of your score, instead of agreeing to the 10 (which thereafter becomes gospel) insist on the 9 and let your opponent make a claim.  If he doesn’t, your 9 stands.  If he does but you’re proved right, your 9 stands. You’ve got nothing to loose, and the “aggravation factor” might switch to your opponent.  

Fair point!  I think again the other thoughts that ran in my mind was from the prior week with the whole teeing ground fiasco.  IT was UGLY... So honestly it felt like divine payback LOL.

 

Honestly there is no malice in the group we have been friends for years. But just stupid people, doing stupid things, saying stupid stuff LOL! 

 

 

[Sawgrass]

10 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

Fair point!  I think again the other thoughts that ran in my mind was from the prior week with the whole teeing ground fiasco.  IT was UGLY... So honestly it felt like divine payback LOL.

 

Honestly there is no malice in the group we have been friends for years. But just stupid people, doing stupid things, saying stupid stuff LOL! 

 

 

Exactice, I humbly recommend a solution.  You’re all friends. Over a beer, come to a future agreement that each of you will gracefully accept whatever the rules prescribe for any conflict. Further agree not to be frustrated as the rule comes to light, but rather rejoice in having learned something that day. 
 

Put your biased egos aside, and be pleased to learn more and more about what the objective experts at the R&A and USGA have to say.  It’s actually quite rewarding. 

[antip]

10 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

From prior posts of yours it seems match play doesn't happen much at all in Oz. At least not in organized comps.

 

So here in the USA you actually have (casual) 4-ball match play. I don't know how common it actually is but I've played in a 4-some where everybody had matches against everybody else.

 

As far as I can recall nobody ever recalled a shot. We simply played ready golf.

Match play is uncommon within clubs, the number of match play tournaments are very few, generally no more than one or two events a year. But it is a common format for inter-club events, we call pennants, singles match play in teams of 5-8. Virtually every district (we are all grouped under District Golf Associations) has annual pennants competitions, often in a few different grades, competing for district bragging rights/flags on clubhouse walls etc. This is representative play, perhaps involving  up to 15-30 players from each club, ie not an 'everyone can join in' process.

[rogolf]

34 minutes ago, antip said:

Match play is uncommon within clubs, the number of match play tournaments are very few, generally no more than one or two events a year. But it is a common format for inter-club events, we call pennants, singles match play in teams of 5-8. Virtually every district (we are all grouped under District Golf Associations) has annual pennants competitions, often in a few different grades, competing for district bragging rights/flags on clubhouse walls etc. This is representative play, perhaps involving  up to 15-30 players from each club, ie not an 'everyone can join in' process.

I've heard of "pennants" and always thought they were significant events, particularly amongst the clubs and players.  "Bragging rights" are very important.

(I have a brass beer mug in my office called the "Bragging Rights Cup" which was four-ball matches played by the four of us, a home and home for our two city courses.  If there was a tie after the home and home, we had to go to a neutral venue for the final.  It was a lot of fun, and very serious competition.)

[antip]

4 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I've heard of "pennants" and always thought they were significant events, particularly amongst the clubs and players.  "Bragging rights" are very important.

(I have a brass beer mug in my office called the "Bragging Rights Cup" which was four-ball matches played by the four of us, a home and home for our two city courses.  If there was a tie after the home and home, we had to go to a neutral venue for the final.  It was a lot of fun, and very serious competition.)

Yes, they are locally significant. In many districts, it is just one or two divisions of the elite players from each club playing scratch (no hcp) match play, in some districts it extends to a handicap division. There are generally also divisions of junior (mostly u/21) and senior (>50); there is also a super senior (>65) in some districts. For some, those interclub rivalries are the most intense there are.

[Nels55]

7 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

Fair point!  I think again the other thoughts that ran in my mind was from the prior week with the whole teeing ground fiasco.  IT was UGLY... So honestly it felt like divine payback LOL.

 

Honestly there is no malice in the group we have been friends for years. But just stupid people, doing stupid things, saying stupid stuff LOL! 

 

 

Your buddy blaming you for his teeing off from the wrong tee is extremely weak!  I would be thinking about finding someone else to golf with.  At this point I would say that he owes you a couple of apologies... 

[Exactice808]

13 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Your buddy blaming you for his teeing off from the wrong tee is extremely weak!  I would be thinking about finding someone else to golf with.  At this point I would say that he owes you a couple of apologies... 

Oh You should have seen the texts and the jokes at the bar.  It was a heat of the moment situation. We all get excited time to time. 

 

Just to entertain.

So the guy accusing us, and my playing partner for they day were arguing.  Finally my playing partner said #$$% it no bet (Thats when it got awkward even more).  My other opponent, (not the one blaming us) looked at me and we just started laughing.  The other 2 guys were mad as hell at each other.  about 2 Holes later, I told him hey lets switch bags Ill ride with you and let the 2 girls fight in the same cart. (He and I were laughing)

  

We always get together at the end at a bar, I had company coming over that evening, so I was going to be late.  Later that night my playing partner texted me where I was, I said running late. I asked him hows it going ? (A little worried they would be arguing at the bar)   He said "I am making up with my girlfriend now" HAHA 😃 .  So all is right and normal, Again we have played together for years,  So we have these spats once in a great while. Its more humorous than anything but it gets pretty heated for a bit till the beer and wine start flowing. Then its 1 week of teasing text messages about being babies/children & cheaters (joking).

 

So honestly its a bunch of good friends being @$$holes because we are that close enough to be.  But again the honest thing that bothered me more, was if I was actually counting my score wrong since the new Local Rule change, then many of my scores would have been wrong.  I was not actually mad at my buddy for calling the violation I was mad at myself for not knowing the rules or having doubts of the rules. This affected my Psyche. 

 

As a prior post, I just need to really get my knowledge and confidence of the rules up as one day I may play a match with someone I DONT know. They call me out and I would be an absolute train wreck LOL.  

 

 

[MelloYello]