What’s the beef with low scores?

[2bGood]

3 hours ago, Z1ggy16 said:

People are obsessed with par and sometimes forget the lowest total number of shots is what wins. If you turn a par 72 into 70 by converting 2 of the shortest par 5's into 4's... suddenly your score to par is lower.. yet... total shots taken is no different. Also, a lot of that rough looked like half the muni courses fairways around here. Not a very punishing course with soft greens with the best in the world playing it... what do you expect?

 

I feel there are bigger fish to fry here.

 

I watch golf rather than read about the score. So -20 or -2 is not really what I care about I am following shot by shot. I want to see interesting shots from interesting players.

[JaNelson38]

18 hours ago, Hattie Pants said:

With the Byron recently at -25, lots of beef about the scoring and being a terrible venue. For those of you that don’t like it, fill me in, what’s your issue with it? If they played it as a par 71 or 70 and the same golfers hit the same shots on the same holes but the winning score was 10-12 under do we still have an issue? Is it some sort of complex where people want to see pros struggling instead of making birdies? 

 

A lot of people are simply jealous as to how good these guys are.  As if shooting 20-under at a 4-day tournament is easy, no matter the course you're playing.

 

That's all it is, really.

[gvogel]

15 hours ago, goaliedad30 said:

I don't get it either. Low score wins.

Then you probably would have no problem with tour events played on executive courses, or par 3 courses.

 

Some of us like to see the best players in the world sufficiently tested through the bag.  I think that we will see that at Kiawah.

[Ferguson]

-25 reminds me of Macho Grande

 

 

 

 

[smashdn]

21 hours ago, Hattie Pants said:

 

With the Byron recently at -25, lots of beef about the scoring and being a terrible venue. For those of you that don’t like it, fill me in, what’s your issue with it?

 

My take was the set-up was not very challenging.  Couple that with no wind and a soft course and you get extreme target golf.  I like to see the best, being the best, because they are being tested.  If you don't have to really think out a shot and are only concerned with carry distance for the most part, the game devolves to TopGolf or a driving range contest.

 

If they played it as a par 71 or 70 and the same golfers hit the same shots on the same holes but the winning score was 10-12 under do we still have an issue?

 

I would still.  Maybe have more of an issue.  An almost 7500 yard course having to play at par 70 is a problem.  Not sure if it is a USGA/R&A problem, a PGA Tour problem or a golf problem.  But it is a problem imo.  You had a soaking wet course with sticky zoysia and the driving average was 291.8 for that tournament.  Driving distance leader was 323.1.  It isn't all about driving either but that is the easiest stat to pull out for me.

 

Is it some sort of complex where people want to see pros struggling instead of making birdies? 

 

I watch professional golf to A) see great golf venues that I will likely never set foot upon and even less likely play B) see amazingly talented golfers interact with that course.  Birdies should come as a result of extraordinary play.  When virtually the whole field is making birdie on the bulk of the holes by definition it is not extraordinary.

 

It ceases to be entertaining for me when it is not a challenge for them.  Akin to NBA players having a dunk contest on an 8 foot rim.

 

I want to see it take a player playing outstanding golf to win.  I almost felt that at the Byron Nelson, "someone has to win this thing I guess."

 

Would you rank any of KH Lee's rounds of golf in the top ten rounds of professional golf ever played?  Top 50?  Top 100?  Top 1000?

Edited May 19, 2021 by smashdn

[bscinstnct]

Change the title of this thread please!

 

Every time I see I like Pavlov dog like

 

 

[2bGood]

4 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

Change the title of this thread please!

 

Every time I see I like Pavlov dog like

 

 

This is more like a nothing burger

[smturner1203]

You'll notice that the best players in the world tend to gravitate to the tougher courses. They require all facets of the game to win on where easier courses turn into pitch and putt for these guys. Look at the KF or the European Tour. The guy with the hot putter wins more often than not. McIlroy has even criticized the Euro Tour for setting their courses up too easily and cited it as a reason for their weak fields compared to the PGA Tour. 

 

For me it's just an entertainment factor. It's fun to see these guys pull off crazy shots in tough conditions to small sections of severely undulating greens. 

[Dr. Block]

Easy set-ups and low scores seems like a marketing decision. The PGA Tour thrives on TV Ratings. That means they need to constantly pull in new viewers. New viewers want to see bombed drives and easy birdies, just the same as they want to see home runs, alley oop dunks, kick out threes, and long touchdown passes.  It's sad, and has made the product pretty boring to real golf fans (in my opinion), but I understand it. Welcome to the age of enlightened mediocrity - short attention spans and narrow intellect must be served.  

Edited May 19, 2021 by Dr. Block

[Pepperturbo]

When courses are prepared for the tour, fairways become faster as well as greens.  Added weather provided softer conditions.  Guys can tackle shots and pin positions that under normal circumstances, they are less likely to attempt. 

 

That course "design" was just too damn easy, weather conditions, made it even easier to reach ridiculous -25.  One thing is sure, that level of scoring supports the baloney line "these guys are good", and sponsors love it.   I don't care how good someone is at golf, I want to see them challenged.  Unlike many on Golfwrx that want golf easy, this ole man likes to be tested when I tee it up. 

 

Next question, how many idiots ran out and bought equipment just because said equipment was used by some player during a low-scoring tournament.  Another topic for another time. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[MUNIGRIT]

I could shave 8 strokes off of par this week with doing nothing but making it a par 70. 99 percent of the way under par haters wouldn't even notice.

[Christosterone]

3 hours ago, Ferguson said:

-25 reminds me of Macho Grande

 

 

 

 

I’ll never get over macho grande…

 

 

[2bGood]

35 minutes ago, MUNIGRIT said:

I could shave 8 strokes off of par this week with doing nothing but making it a par 70. 99 percent of the way under par haters wouldn't even notice.

I agree, most golf fans are pretty casual and won't notice either way. I tend to think this is an internet only problem. 

 

Hardcover fans are watching shot to shot, a course set up to easy - is not as interesting regardless of the score. A course set up too hard is annoying to watch no matter the score. 

 

 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Pepperturbo said:

When courses are prepared for the tour, fairways become faster as well as greens.  Added weather provided softer conditions.  Guys can tackle shots and pin positions that under normal circumstances, they are less likely to attempt. 

 

That course "design" was just too damn easy, weather conditions, made it even easier to reach ridiculous -25.  One thing is sure, that level of scoring supports the baloney line "these guys are good", and sponsors love it.   I don't care how good someone is at golf, I want to see them challenged.  Unlike many on Golfwrx that want golf easy, this ole man likes to be tested when I tee it up. 

 

Next question, how many idiots ran out and bought equipment just because said equipment was used by some player during a low-scoring tournament.  Another topic for another time. 

76.5 149. Go play TPC Craig Ranch from those tees and tell me just how too damn easy it was.   I do believe even you would tested.  Yes, it rained necessitating LCP the final round if they wanted to finish Sunday.  And yes it was soft and not very windy.  How exactly would you control that?

 

Not every week needs the course tricked up like the US Open at Merion.  Sometimes in an effort to “challenge” the players the course gets absurd.  I swear some would prefer the greens were slow and bumpy to prevent low scores.
 

 Gee, that’ll show ‘em. 

 

Some don’t like just how much better the pros are so they bastardize the game to make them suffer.

[2bGood]

2 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

76.5 149. Go play TPC Craig Ranch from those tees and tell me just how too damn easy it was.   I do believe even you would tested.  Yes, it rained necessitating LCP the final round if they wanted to finish Sunday.  And yes it was soft and not very windy.  How exactly would you control that?

 

Not every week needs the course tricked up like the US Open at Merion.  Sometimes in an effort to “challenge” the players the course gets absurd.  I swear some would prefer the greens were slow and bumpy to prevent low scores.
 

 Gee, that’ll show ‘em. 

 

Some don’t like just how much better the pros are so they bastardize the game to make them suffer.

It is pretty rare the courses get too tricked up. US Open has had some major gaffs, I even think Thursday this year at ANGC was not set right, but it is really rare. 

[Shilgy]

Just now, 2bGood said:

It is pretty rare the courses get too tricked up. US Open has had some major gaffs, I even think Thursday this year at ANGC was not set right, but it is really rare. 

Fortunately yes.  But for the folks that want to make them “suffer where a great round is over par……

 

How do you accomplish that without extreme weather conditions?
 

 

[Blonde Line Lizard]

1 hour ago, Dr. Block said:

Easy set-ups and low scores seems like a marketing decision. The PGA Tour thrives on TV Ratings. That means they need to constantly pull in new viewers. New viewers want to see bombed drives and easy birdies, just the same as they want to see home runs, alley oop dunks, kick out threes, and long touchdown passes.  It's sad, and has made the product pretty boring to real golf fans (in my opinion), but I understand it. Welcome to the age of enlightened mediocrity - short attention spans and narrow intellect must be served.  

Well said.

[Pepperturbo]

5 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

76.5 149. Go play TPC Craig Ranch from those tees and tell me just how too damn easy it was.   I do believe even you would tested.  Yes, it rained necessitating LCP the final round if they wanted to finish Sunday.  And yes it was soft and not very windy.  How exactly would you control that?

 

Not every week needs the course tricked up like the US Open at Merion.  Sometimes in an effort to “challenge” the players the course gets absurd.  I swear some would prefer the greens were slow and bumpy to prevent low scores.
 

 Gee, that’ll show ‘em. 

 

Some don’t like just how much better the pros are so they bastardize the game to make them suffer.

I am not going to argue with you or anyone about this.  I have spent a good portion of my golf life holding a membership at two seriously challenging clubs, which is what my index was built on.  Challenge has been part of my life, so a strong rating doesn't affect me, not even at my age.  If I could tee it up there, I wouldn't score like them, but I'd score better than most amateurs that are not used to difficult courses.  

 

People want to play what they are used to.  I am used to difficult including PGA West Stadium blue tees 6700+ 73.1/140 and a 76.

 

If you think that course was difficult enough, fine, think that.  But don't think your statement is going to change my mind.  I watched the whole event, it was too damn easy, and I would say the same at any event where scoring is similar.  The only reason tour guys reach over -20 is its easy for them.

[Shilgy]

8 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

I am not going to argue with you or anyone about this.  I have spent a good portion of my golf life holding a membership at two seriously challenging clubs, which is what my index was built on.  Challenge has been part of my life, so a strong rating doesn't affect me, not even at my age.  If I could tee it up there, I wouldn't score like them, but I'd score better than most amateurs that are not used to difficult courses.  

 

People want to play what they are used to.  I am used to difficult including PGA West Stadium blue tees 6700+ 73.1/140 and a 76.

 

If you think that course was difficult enough, fine, think that.  But don't think your statement is going to change my mind.  I watched the whole event, it was too damn easy, and I would say the same at any event where scoring is similar.  The only reason tour guys reach over -20 is its easy for them.

Yes it was relatively easy…..because of the weather and resulting course conditions.

 

Curios though….let’s say for the case of argument that when playing well most would have handicaps in the +7-+8 range. Certainly some would be as high as +5 but then some are better as well.  
 

How would you prevent the occasional score where -20 or better is necessary to win?

 

Edited to add….was the 76 your average there?  Well done! Especially at 70!!

Edited May 19, 2021 by Shilgy

[Pepperturbo]

1 minute ago, Shilgy said:

Yes it was relatively easy…..because of the weather and resulting course conditions.

 

Curios though….let’s say for the case of argument that when playing well most would have handicaps in the +7-+8 range. Certainly some would be as high as +5 but then some are better as well.  
 

How would you prevent the occasional score where -20 or better is necessary to win?

I don't care what their index is... I've played with tour guys.  The course needs to be setup to be challenging to every one in the field.  The reason some tour guys don't play Harbour Town is its short and tight, demanding good ball striking, straight and course mgt.  Too many alleged professionals hate it when a course dictating to them. 

 

They can tweak courses.  Some guys were banging it huge and don't care where it lands.  They know how the rough will play.  They needed to tighten fairways and lengthen the rough.  If someone lands in the trees, it's got to cost a punch out stroke and yardage.  A few of the courses I play have 4"+ rough and very tight fairways.  One Par 5 I play I hit 2 iron off the tee cause rough is penalizing requiring a short mid-iron only for missed fairway.  In other words, I miss the fairway off the tee, it's a stroke to get back in position.

 

Nobody's hitting a hard fade or swooping mid-long iron hook to advance the ball reaching short of the green or wedge distance.  I watched a guy do that.  The rough was so weak he was able to advance the ball using  4-5 iron though trees to a yardage where he hit a wedge pin high and made birdie putt.  The camera was behind him; I could hit the same 2nd shot he did though the trees, maybe not as far but nonetheless, though the trees because the rough was weak. 

[oughtaquit]

Claiming you don't watch golf for the disasters is like claiming you don't watch NASCAR for the wrecks.  

[Tasals]

On 5/18/2021 at 2:58 PM, bscinstnct said:

Cause you don’t always want to see an 56-47 TD fest.

 

Good to see a little Defense too!

 

 

The Rams-Cheifs on monday night 2 years ago was a TD fest with multiple defensive turn overs from both sides. That game was massively popular and got obscene coverage for a few weeks. Then you got the Super Bowl that year, Pats vs Rams and that was a defensive slog and turned off a lot of football fans and nearly all of the non-football fans. I dont mind guys going really low if they are playing great golf but the opportunity for a big number existed.

[shanx]

I watch golf to see these guys score, get themselves into bad spots and see how they get out, see the same lame commercials being overplayed and Amanda Balionis.

 

Sometimes they shoot really low, sometimes they are clinging to par. Sometimes mother nature wrecks things, sometimes someone is insanely hot/cold and shoots crazy low/high numbers.

 

I think the worse is when the leader is 10 strokes ahead of the next guy, and we need to watch "the fight for second place".

 

 

[smashdn]

3 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

When courses are prepared for the tour, fairways become faster as well as greens.  Added weather provided softer conditions.  Guys can tackle shots and pin positions that under normal circumstances, they are less likely to attempt. 

 

That course "design" was just too damn easy, weather conditions, made it even easier to reach ridiculous -25.  One thing is sure, that level of scoring supports the baloney line "these guys are good", and sponsors love it.   I don't care how good someone is at golf, I want to see them challenged.  Unlike many on Golfwrx that want golf easy, this ole man likes to be tested when I tee it up. 

 

Next question, how many idiots ran out and bought equipment just because said equipment was used by some player during a low-scoring tournament.  Another topic for another time. 

 

These are set-up issues not design.  In this case the PGA Tour could have looked at the forecast the same as any of us and had a fair idea that there would be little to no wind and soft conditions through the week.  They could have kept up the optics by lowering par if they were inclined and avoided some criticism because the paid talking heads would have been talking about how hard a track it was due to the weather and the winning score to par would have been 17 instead of 25 all else being equal.

 

Instead, according to a TPC CR member here, cut the rough down from normal height and used benign hole locations.  They presented the course in an easier than normal set up and the weather played to further exacerbate it.

 

You don't push a course to the edge of difficulty because weather (wind mostly) can cause it to become unplayable.  They pushed the opposite direction in this instance and weather kept pushing.

 

It became a dart competition that KH Lee won.  He was second in SG Approach and one putted almost 50% of the greens.

 

YTD tour driving accuracy is about 60%.  Byron Nelson it was almost 67%.

 

YTD date right rough you lose .056 of a stroke.  Left rough YTD you lose .084.  BN is -.165 and -.050 respectively.  So despite driving the ball in the rough the field still averaged scoring under par from the rough.

 

It was easier to hit and hold the fairway and if you did miss you were still likely to score under par from the rough.

[Shilgy]

4 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

These are set-up issues not design.  In this case the PGA Tour could have looked at the forecast the same as any of us and had a fair idea that there would be little to no wind and soft conditions through the week.  They could have kept up the optics by lowering par if they were inclined and avoided some criticism because the paid talking heads would have been talking about how hard a track it was due to the weather and the winning score to par would have been 17 instead of 25 all else being equal.

 

Instead, according to a TPC CR member here, cut the rough down from normal height and used benign hole locations.  They presented the course in an easier than normal set up and the weather played to further exacerbate it.

 

You don't push a course to the edge of difficulty because weather (wind mostly) can cause it to become unplayable.  They pushed the opposite direction in this instance and weather kept pushing.

 

It became a dart competition that KH Lee won.  He was second in SG Approach and one putted almost 50% of the greens.

 

YTD tour driving accuracy is about 60%.  Byron Nelson it was almost 67%.

 

YTD date right rough you lose .056 of a stroke.  Left rough YTD you lose .084.  BN is -.165 and -.050 respectively.  So despite driving the ball in the rough the field still averaged scoring under par from the rough.

 

It was easier to hit and hold the fairway and if you did miss you were still likely to score under par from the rough.

All true…..one thing to remember for some is that the rough, for instance, at Winged  Foot in the US Open was brutal. And they narrowed the fairways as so many here are suggesting.  Remember though….all that did is play into the long hitters game especially Bryson and Wolff.   That thick rough @Pepperturbomentioned? They had it at the US Open and the long hitters could still play out of it unlike some of us older and shorter players that are wedging out sideways.  And the narrow fairways meant everyone was missing fairways so again that helps the long players.  
   The suggestion Pepper had about Harbor Town was valid, except for the reason.   I agree one good way to challenge these guys is to have a course like that with smaller greens and more doglegs(preferably those they cannot just drive over the corner).  The reason so many guys skip that event is not though because it’s too hard….or they cannot play their game.  It’s the week after the Masters!  Most top players skip the week after a major.  It’s about scheduling for the big events not being afraid to play a course.

[LeoLeo99]

You don't want the course so easy that it just turns into a putting contest.  

[Soloman1]

I think to really challenge them, they should have big six foot deep holes in some of the fairways that are covered so no one can see them. That way they can fall into them to add some entertainment. Or maybe a scorpion in the bottom of the cup? Or how about a bunker is actually quicksand? Or a few random balls in everyone's bag are duds. They don't carry more than 50 yards, no matter how hard you hit them?

 

Just think of the great reactions and the fans would feel better that the course is now playing harder. The scores could go up, and we all get some laughs.

[m d g]

The only thing that I can tell is that super low scores mean the course isn't challenging the players very much.

 

Sure, one guy beat up the course more than the others, but it just wasn't a tough test.

 

We want to see great players do amazing things. Not great players do easy things.

[oikos1]

Here's a question:

 

How may golf wrx posters wouldn't want to shoot -25 over four consecutive days on any 18 hole course, let alone a 7500 yard course, and in any tournament or non-tournament for that matter?

 

Can't wait to see who says "Not me, I like to be tested with every club in the bag".

[bscinstnct]

42 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Here's a question:

 

How may golf wrx posters wouldn't want to shoot -25 over four consecutive days on any 18 hole course, let alone a 7500 yard course, and in any tournament or non-tournament for that matter?

 

Can't wait to see who says "Not me, I like to be tested with every club in the bag".

 

It is cool to just sit back and realize how insanely good these guys are, true.

 

But, for the most part, it gets boring watching too much scoring. The same way in baseball you like to see home runs but it’s far more exciting if there’s some balance between pitching and hitting in a game.

 

US Opens can be too extreme with protecting par. But Augusta has this great balance of exciting scoring opportunities and a course that can be as challenging to the best as any.