How good could wooden drivers become with modern technology?

[Daeldalus]

Let's say that the USGA decided to require woods to be mainly made of wood. 

 

How good could modern tech make them? How big would they be? Hollow? Thin steel face inserts? Adjustable head? 

 

[JeffreySpicoli]

It’d be much more interesting to ask a different question . . .

 

What if the USGA  decided to require that golf balls were made of solid steel?

[Daeldalus]

18 minutes ago, JeffreySpicoli said:

It’d be much more interesting to ask a different question . . .

 

What if the USGA  decided to require that golf balls were made of solid steel?

What? How is that at all relevant?  Wooden woods were the standard in golf for around 500 years. The material is the where the name for the clubs come from. 

I know it wont happen but I think way too many people overestimate what the real difference between a well designed wooden driver and a current design driver is. 

 

There are tests that show 70 year old drivers very nearly keeping up with modern ones. 

 

I was just wondering what kinds of tech people here thought would make it into a new wooden driver design. And how well it could do against modern stuff.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Daeldalus

[JeffreySpicoli]

I’m sorry that you don’t find balls of steel to be more interesting than heads of wood. 
 

😪

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

1 hour ago, Daeldalus said:

Let's say that the USGA decided to require woods to be mainly made of wood. 

 

How good could modern tech make them? How big would they be? Hollow? Thin steel face inserts? Adjustable head? 

 

 

To bring this thread back on track, Wood Bros brought out a couple of cork-filled drivers in the Nineties to counter metal woods. I have one, called The Corker, and the head is a little bigger than other persimmon woods I own. 

The thing I have noticed about it is that on certain strikes, the ball seems to float and goes for miles, but it's hard to reproduce that effect consistently (because I'm not good enough).

 

So that's one direction woods might go.

 

 

"Mainly of wood" is open to interpretation. I would guess that it is possible to create a somewhat hollowed out body with a steel face to get that trampolining effect that modern drivers have, though I suspect it would place great stress on the neck of the driver. 

[Valtiel]

Weight would be the biggest problem. Fast, forgiving drivers rely on thin, strong faces and the ability to free up discretionary weight to move towards the rear, which increases MOI. A head made primarily out of wood could only ever get so big, and thus make it extremely difficult to move weight around to increase forgiveness. Companies would then likely start stretching what is considered "wood" by reinforcing it with other materials to make larger, hollow heads like the aforementioned "Corker". 

[mocokid]

there's a video on this website of DJohnson hitting Jack's persimmon wood about 300 yds, however, he's hitting modern ball.  Ball makes a big impact, maybe more than the clubhead. 

[mocokid]

19 minutes ago, mocokid said:

there's a video on this website of DJohnson hitting Jack's persimmon wood about 300 yds, however, he's hitting modern ball.  Ball makes a big impact, maybe more than the clubhead. 

i've seen a youtube of a Euro player I believe, hitting persimmon with wound titleists and on off center hits the results are not good.  I think if you made tour pros use persimmon and wound balls they could hit it 300 BUT would have to dial back to keep it in play. So distance would go down. 

[Daeldalus]

10 hours ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

 

 

"Mainly of wood" is open to interpretation. I would guess that it is possible to create a somewhat hollowed out body with a steel face to get that trampolining effect that modern drivers have, though I suspect it would place great stress on the neck of the driver. 

Yeah I added mainly of wood because even in the 1800s they had inserts of different materials. It would be quite the loophole for manufacturers to exploit.

 

As for the neck I was thinking that they could connect the shaft directly to the soleplate by extending a metal sleeve up into the neck.

[Daeldalus]

41 minutes ago, mocokid said:

there's a video on this website of DJohnson hitting Jack's persimmon wood about 300 yds, however, he's hitting modern ball.  Ball makes a big impact, maybe more than the clubhead. 

Absolutely the ball makes a huge difference. Txg has a video where Matt is hitting and old wilson 4300 stratabloc trying to get as much distance as possible. The old wound ball he could only get 270ish yards but as soon as he switched to a modern ball he was able to hit one nearly 320 yards.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

16 minutes ago, Daeldalus said:

Yeah I added mainly of wood because even in the 1800s they had inserts of different materials. It would be quite the loophole for manufacturers to exploit.

 

As for the neck I was thinking that they could connect the shaft directly to the soleplate by extending a metal sleeve up into the neck.

 

Ah, the insert. I was actually thinking more along the lines @Valtiel was, such as manufacturers using other materials to strengthen the wood. 

 

It'd be interesting to see how creative manufacturers would get.

[Daeldalus]

17 minutes ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

 

Ah, the insert. I was actually thinking more along the lines @Valtiel was, such as manufacturers using other materials to strengthen the wood. 

 

It'd be interesting to see how creative manufacturers would get.

"This is still technically wood because the carbon that we made the carbon fiber from was made by burning white pine lumber." -Taylormade rep

[PostandGhost]

If the construction industry is any indication, club manufacturers would still be able to do a lot with wood, especially if it didn't have to be a solid piece of wood.  Resins that are put into LVLs and OSB can make wood products very strong.  

 

I think the biggest difference in club making if wood was still used for club heads would be that the manufacturing process would take place completely domestically instead of overseas.  

 

However, if you think cost of clubs are bad now, as well as back ordered products, wood is not the answer!

[Foozle]

59 minutes ago, mocokid said:

i've seen a youtube of a Euro player I believe, hitting persimmon with wound titleists and on off center hits the results are not good.  I think if you made tour pros use persimmon and wound balls they could hit it 300 BUT would have to dial back to keep it in play. So distance would go down. 

This was the case. The convention of the day was to hit at 80% of power to try and ensure centre strikes and avoid the significant fall of from off centre strikes.

Modern large headed drivers don't suffer that fall off - anywhere on the face will do and that in itself is a big target area! Therefore modern clubs allow the player to " go after it" at close to 100% of power. Lighter heads also allow longer shafts - that extra 3" or 4" shaft length generates additional club head speed.

What modern technology does not do is change the basic laws of physics and under controlled test conditions (iron Byron) there is almost no distance difference between centre struck wood and modern metal at the same clubhead speed.

All "technology" has done is make clubs easier to hit at closer to full throttle. 

The "wood" game was (and is) in my opinion a purer, more subtle, more skillful, more frustrating, more enjoyable and ultimately more satisfying game which I would dearly but forelornly love see return!

[dab]

I had a Honma Super Big Lb persimmon driver that had a graphite insert and partially hollowed out resin impregnated center for more perimeter weighting - very playable. I would imagine an up to date version of these ideas would be very effective.

[Shilgy]

13 hours ago, JeffreySpicoli said:

I’m sorry that you don’t find balls of steel to be more interesting than heads of wood. 
 

😪

Some have a difficulty with deciphering sarcasm in print.🧐

[Shilgy]

53 minutes ago, Foozle said:

This was the case. The convention of the day was to hit at 80% of power to try and ensure centre strikes and avoid the significant fall of from off centre strikes.

Modern large headed drivers don't suffer that fall off - anywhere on the face will do and that in itself is a big target area! Therefore modern clubs allow the player to " go after it" at close to 100% of power. Lighter heads also allow longer shafts - that extra 3" or 4" shaft length generates additional club head speed.

What modern technology does not do is change the basic laws of physics and under controlled test conditions (iron Byron) there is almost no distance difference between centre struck wood and modern metal at the same clubhead speed.

All "technology" has done is make clubs easier to hit at closer to full throttle. 

The "wood" game was (and is) in my opinion a purer, more subtle, more skillful, more frustrating, more enjoyable and ultimately more satisfying game which I would dearly but forelornly love see return!

Watch some old videos of guys like a  young Jack and Johnny

 Miller.  That 80% thing was a myth.

[Foozle]

21 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Watch some old videos of guys like a  young Jack and Johnny

 Miller.  That 80% thing was a myth.

There are exceptions to every rule! Point well made and taken!

Distance has always been an advantage and throughout time players have pursued it. Jack, Arnie, Johnny and other big hitters of the era were a magnificent sight at full bore but I am confident even they reserved 100% for particular risk / reward situations.

I think my point is that the "wood" game was/is a more measured game than the one played today and in my opinion all the better for it.

[mocokid]

21 minutes ago, Foozle said:

There are exceptions to every rule! Point well made and taken!

Distance has always been an advantage and throughout time players have pursued it. Jack, Arnie, Johnny and other big hitters of the era were a magnificent sight at full bore but I am confident even they reserved 100% for particular risk / reward situations.

I think my point is that the "wood" game was/is a more measured game than the one played today and in my opinion all the better for it.

I've watched the USGA channel on Roku, US open final rounds 1963-81 so far.  There is a difference between 80% and 100%, that you can see. 

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, mocokid said:

I've watched the USGA channel on Roku, US open final rounds 1963-81 so far.  There is a difference between 80% and 100%, that you can see. 

IMO, face control is face control. I played the first 25 years of so of my golf with wooden headed woods. They weren’t that much more difficult to hit than today’s.  In fact I would argue the drivers were easier to hit as essentially they were hitting a modern 3 wood in siz nd play length. There were just as many players that really went at it then as there are today AND there were really no more massive misfits then than there are today. 
  Yes, it went shorter, largely because of the heavier steel shaft and the balata ball but it was not more difficult to hit well.

[mocokid]

4 hours ago, Shilgy said:

IMO, face control is face control. I played the first 25 years of so of my golf with wooden headed woods. They weren’t that much more difficult to hit than today’s.  In fact I would argue the drivers were easier to hit as essentially they were hitting a modern 3 wood in siz nd play length. There were just as many players that really went at it then as there are today AND there were really no more massive misfits then than there are today. 
  Yes, it went shorter, largely because of the heavier steel shaft and the balata ball but it was not more difficult to hit well.

agreed, but a persimmon driver is about the size of a 3 hybrid, LOL, it's smaller than today's 3 wood.  LOL

[Shilgy]

17 minutes ago, mocokid said:

agreed, but a persimmon driver is about the size of a 3 hybrid, LOL, it's smaller than today's 3 wood.  LOL

Incorrect. A persimmon driver was typically 190cc the typical 3 wood is 175cc today.

 

See links to Louisville Golfs 50’s recreation driver and Titleist fairway.

https://louisvillegolf.com/collections/drivers/products/classic-50s-persimmon-driver

 

https://www.titleist.com/product/tsi3-fairway/650C.html#start=2

 

Yes, the modern goes further but this whole myth about the old being so hard to hit solidly and straight with a hard swing is imo ridiculous.  Proof isit’s not difficult to swing hard at a 3 wood today.

 

YMMV

 

[RickK]

The environmentalist would be all over golf it that happened.  "Killing more trees" to make golf clubs.  

[Fairway14]

In 1963, Jack Nicklaus won the annual PGA Long Drive Competition with a 341-yard drive at Dallas Athletic Club with a persimmon driver and wound golf ball. 

[miamistomp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THr8GfZjl-o

 

Mr 515

Edited May 20, 2021 by miamistomp

[NRJyzr]

On 5/19/2021 at 7:05 AM, mocokid said:

there's a video on this website of DJohnson hitting Jack's persimmon wood about 300 yds, however, he's hitting modern ball.  Ball makes a big impact, maybe more than the clubhead. 

 

No, not really.  When the multilayer balls were just hitting the scene, therefore launch monitor ball tests comparing wound and solid core golfballs.  The differences were much less than you'd think.

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by NRJyzr

[NRJyzr]

On 5/19/2021 at 7:49 AM, Daeldalus said:

Absolutely the ball makes a huge difference. Txg has a video where Matt is hitting and old wilson 4300 stratabloc trying to get as much distance as possible. The old wound ball he could only get 270ish yards but as soon as he switched to a modern ball he was able to hit one nearly 320 yards.

 

Wound balls lose *significant* performance after just a few years.  Five at the most, possibly as little as three.

 

Such comparisons are pointless.

 

[Swingingk]

1 hour ago, NRJyzr said:

 

Wound balls lose *significant* performance after just a few years.  Five at the most, possibly as little as three.

 

Such comparisons are pointless.

 

Agreed.  Wound balls degrade relatively quickly.  The differences between old and new show less in performance than in durability - which is also significant.  In my opinion of course.  ☺

Edited May 22, 2021 by Swingingk

[RobotDoctor]

The problem with a persimmon wood is the sweet spot is fairly small, about dime sized or maybe just under a nickel, in the center of the insert.  Any balls struck there will carry very well compared to most drivers today.  Close but not as far.  The problem is the more a ball is struck away from the sweet spot the loss of distance is magnified.  A ball 1/2" or so towards the toe or heal may result in a 30-40 yard loss.  Strike a ball farther away and one might see a 50-70 yard loss, and the beginning of the destruction of the wood itself (with continual and consistent hitting on the wood itself).  While a tour pro might not suffer too much with a persimmon wood because they can consistently hit the ball in the same spot time and time again, most of the golf community would experience significant distance loss with inaccurate ball striking.  I have gamed both steel and graphite shafts in persimmon woods (although the graphite shafts were from the 90s) and I prefer steel shafts for the heavier blocks.

One thing for certain, there are few things in golf like the feeling of striking a balata ball on the screws, or between them.  How about this driver in the modern game?