Playing a provisional on a holed out shot?

[4x4GGG]

Reading another forum I visit, non golf related, I came across the following post: 

 

My buddy aced a 330 yard par 4 on Sunday. He was playing in a 4 ball match. It's a narrow hole that goes up and over a hill and slopes down to the green that is protected by many bunkers. He bombs his drive and the 4 in his group can't find it. They assumed it had gone into the creek right of the path near the green, so they drop and chip on to the green. The team they are playing makes about an 8 foot putt for what they think is winning the hole and discovers another ball in the hole. My buddies original ball! First time the hole had ever been aced since the course was opened. Pretty damn cool. They did win the match. It cost him an $1100 bar bill though.

 

My first thought that he played a provisional so thats the live ball, but in the end the first ball was holed thus nothing else matters except he continued to play after it was holed so is that a penalty since it isn't match, but even though he said it was a 4 ball it seems it may have been match? Also, was this the correct drop? 

 

It's exactly how I'd play it, but I figured you guys could pick it apart. 

[Sawgrass]

The guy with the ace scored a one for his team the minute the ball came to rest in the hole. No penalty for innocently playing the dropped ball. 

[ArtMBgolf]

The hole is over for the Acer.  Nothing after holing out counts. 
 
If it wasn't found in the hole, you can't assume it must be lost in the water, 
unless you saw it splash.  I believe he would have to play as if it's a lost ball. 

[Newby]

4 hours ago, 4x4GGG said:

Reading another forum I visit, non golf related, I came across the following post: 

 

My buddy aced a 330 yard par 4 on Sunday. He was playing in a 4 ball match. It's a narrow hole that goes up and over a hill and slopes down to the green that is protected by many bunkers. He bombs his drive and the 4 in his group can't find it. They assumed it had gone into the creek right of the path near the green, so they drop and chip on to the green. The team they are playing makes about an 8 foot putt for what they think is winning the hole and discovers another ball in the hole. My buddies original ball! First time the hole had ever been aced since the course was opened. Pretty damn cool. They did win the match. It cost him an $1100 bar bill though.

 

My first thought that he played a provisional so thats the live ball, but in the end the first ball was holed thus nothing else matters except he continued to play after it was holed so is that a penalty since it isn't match, but even though he said it was a 4 ball it seems it may have been match? Also, was this the correct drop? 

 

It's exactly how I'd play it, but I figured you guys could pick it apart. 

It doesn't matter in this case because the ball was holed with an ace.

But if it hadn't been, the question arises, where did he play his provisional from and what was this 'dropped' ball. Where did he drop it? Was it supposed to be the provisional?

[davep043]

9 hours ago, 4x4GGG said:

he continued to play after it was holed so is that a penalty since it isn't match,

Interpretation 6.5/1 is pretty clear on this, saying in part:

Quote

When a player has holed out, the play of that hole is completed and the player gets no penalty for playing another ball.

. . . . . . 

If the player did not know the hole was completed and attempts to complete play of the hole with another ball, the player’s further play is not considered practice (Rule 5.5a).

 

[LeoLeo99]

9 hours ago, ArtMBgolf said:

The hole is over for the Acer.  Nothing after holing out counts. 
 
If it wasn't found in the hole, you can't assume it must be lost in the water, 
unless you saw it splash.  I believe he would have to play as if it's a lost ball. 

 

Not exactly.  If you can't find your ball and there is a penalty area where you hit your ball you have to decide if the ball is lost outside the PA or if there is no other place the ball could be except in the PA.  You don't need a splash but you need to be sure there's no other place except in the PA.  

 

Then:  If you decide on lost ball, you can play the provisional.  If you decide it has to be in the PA, then you can't play the provisional and you take relief from the PA.  Even if you decide to take stroke and distance, you have to rehit the ball and can't use the provisional. 

[Shilgy]

Don’t know about all of this “provisional ball” talk when a provisional ball was never hit. 😡

[LeoLeo99]

5 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Don’t know about all of this “provisional ball” talk when a provisional ball was never hit. 😡

Guy took a drop from the PA and played that as provisional he didn't ace the hole off the tee.  😀

[Abh159]

I understand the player in the OP's post and the subsequent answers/rulings regarding the hole was over once his ball entered the hole. However, I have a related question on this subject....

 

Can you take a "provisional" ball when you assume your ball is in a penalty area? If you take a drop from a hazard does that ball not then become the ball in play regardless of whether you find the original or not?

 

I always thought a provisional was reserved for a ball assumed to be OB or lost. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Abh159

[rogolf]

15 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

I understand the player in the OP's post and the subsequent answers/rulings regarding the hole was over once his ball entered the hole. However, I have a related question on this subject....

 

Can you take a "provisional" ball when you assume your ball is in a penalty area? If you take a drop from a hazard does that ball not then become the ball in play regardless of whether you find the original or not?

 

I always thought a provisional was reserved for a ball assumed to be OB or lost. 

The definition of provisional ball is pretty clear,

Provisional Ball

Another ball played in case the ball just played by the player may be:

• out of bounds, or
• lost outside a penalty area.

A provisional ball is not the player's ball in play, unless it becomes the ball in play under Rule 18.3c.

[davep043]

11 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

I understand the player in the OP's post and the subsequent answers/rulings regarding the hole was over once his ball entered the hole. However, I have a related question on this subject....

 

Can you take a "provisional" ball when you assume your ball is in a penalty area? If you take a drop from a hazard does that ball not then become the ball in play regardless of whether you find the original or not?

 

I always thought a provisional was reserved for a ball assumed to be OB or lost. 

You can play a provisional "If a ball might be lost outside a penalty area or be out of bounds,".  If its Virtually Certain that the ball is in a Penalty Area, then you may not play a provisional. 

And yes, once you put a ball in play to take relief from a Penalty Area (assuming that its virtually certain the ball is in that PA), that ball is in play, you cannot play your original ball if found (Rule 17.1c).  If its not known of virtually certain, you MUST play stroke and distance for a lost ball.

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Abh159 said:

1) Can you take a "provisional" ball when you assume your ball is in a penalty area?

 

2) If you take a drop from a hazard does that ball not then become the ball in play regardless of whether you find the original or not?

 

3) I always thought a provisional was reserved for a ball assumed to be OB or lost. 

1) No. If you are 95%+ certain it is in a PA then you must take penalty relief from the PA (which includes the option of S&D)

 

2) Yes. That ball is not a provisional ball. If you do not know that the ball is in the PA and take a drop you will have played from a wrong place with a 2 stroke penalty and may possibly lead to a DQ.

 

3) A provisional is reserved for a ball known (95%+) to be OB or lost and has been declared to be a provisional before playing it.  It must be played under S&D.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Newby

[Sawgrass]

16 minutes ago, Newby said:

1) No. If you are 95%+ certain it is in a PA then you must take penalty relief from the PA (which includes the option of S&D)

 

2) Yes. That ball is not a provisional ball. If you do not know that the ball is in the PA and take a drop you will have played from a wrong place with a 2 stroke penalty and may possibly lead to a DQ.

 

3) A provisional is reserved for a ball known (95%+) to be OB or lost and has been declared to be a provisional before playing it.  It must be played under S&D.

I trust you didn’t mean to exclude balls that might be OB or lost in your #3 statement above.
 

As an additional note, local rule B-3 modifies all this, including the S&D requirement described in #3.

[Newby]

16 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

I trust you didn’t mean to exclude balls that might be OB or lost in your #3 statement above.
 

As an additional note, local rule B-3 modifies all this, including the S&D requirement described in #3.

Good points but I was working on the scenario posted by LeoLeo99