Penalty area and cart path questions

[Nels55]

At my course there are a number of places where there is a lateral penalty area with a cart path running somewhere within two club lengths parallel to the penalty area.  The cart path is on the left side of the fairway and I am playing right handed.  I have a couple of questions regarding taking two club lengths under penalty from the red markers:

 

1)  If the point two club lengths from the penalty area is on the cart path and when marked is close enough to the right side of the path that I could get relief from the cart path in the fairway from that spot can I take relief from the cart path without first dropping the ball?

2)  If I drop the ball and it rolls back towards the penalty area and stops within the two club lengths from the point of entry in a spot where I would have to stand in the penalty area to hit the ball do I have to play the ball or can I re-drop it?

 

Thanks!

[Abh159]

1) No. You cannot "skip steps". You'd first have to take relief from the hazard. If the resulting drop ends up on the path you then would take relief from the path.

 

2) If the ball comes to rest outside of the penalty area, within the two clubs lengths, and no closer to the hole the ball is now in play. You don't get relief if you are simply standing in a penalty area. 

[davep043]

Just now, Abh159 said:

2) If the ball comes to rest outside of the penalty area, within the two clubs lengths, and no closer to the hole the ball is now in play. You don't get relief if you are simply standing in a penalty area. 

To add to this, once you have taken relief from the Penalty Area, the dropped ball has come to rest within the appropriate Relief Area, its a brand new situation.  So you've dropped, and the ball is on the cart path.   If the Nearest Pont of Complete Relief from the cart path is in the grass between the Penalty Area and the path, that's where you must take relief (if you choose to take relief).  If you need to stand in the penalty area to take relief, that's life.  Sometimes the best choice is to play it as it lies on the path, free relief isn't always a good choice.

 

However, once you've taken relief from the cart path, and depending on the terrain (and presence of water) in the area of a right-handed stance, it could be quite reasonable to play your next stroke left-handed, requiring you to stand on the path again.  So you could again take relief, and its possible that the NPCR for that left-handed swing could be to the fairway side of the path.  Please notice that I'm using a lot of qualifiers, what you might be allowed to do in any specific situation will depend entirely on the specific circumstances.  

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, davep043 said:

However, once you've taken relief from the cart path, and depending on the terrain (and presence of water) in the area of a right-handed stance, it could be quite reasonable to play your next stroke left-handed, requiring you to stand on the path again.  So you could again take relief, and its possible that the NPCR for that left-handed swing could be to the fairway side of the path.  Please notice that I'm using a lot of qualifiers, what you might be allowed to do in any specific situation will depend entirely on the specific circumstances.  

 

Dave, you're stretching it... 😄 but you are not wrong, not at all.

[davep043]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Dave, you're stretching it... 😄 but you are not wrong, not at all.

I realized that.  I've also tried this plan a couple of times, and found that more often than not the ball when dropped doesn't do as I planned, so I end up worse off than I needed to be.  In my experience, simpler is usually better, now I'll take my lumps and try to pick one off the cart path.

[Krt22]

21 minutes ago, davep043 said:

To add to this, once you have taken relief from the Penalty Area, the dropped ball has come to rest within the appropriate Relief Area, its a brand new situation.  So you've dropped, and the ball is on the cart path.   If the Nearest Pont of Complete Relief from the cart path is in the grass between the Penalty Area and the path, that's where you must take relief (if you choose to take relief).  If you need to stand in the penalty area to take relief, that's life.  Sometimes the best choice is to play it as it lies on the path, free relief isn't always a good choice.

 

However, once you've taken relief from the cart path, and depending on the terrain (and presence of water) in the area of a right-handed stance, it could be quite reasonable to play your next stroke left-handed, requiring you to stand on the path again.  So you could again take relief, and its possible that the NPCR for that left-handed swing could be to the fairway side of the path.  Please notice that I'm using a lot of qualifiers, what you might be allowed to do in any specific situation will depend entirely on the specific circumstances.  

Interesting. What if the ball is on the left side of the path so the NPCR is left of the path, but there isn't enough room to drop outside of the PA. In that case does the NPCR shift to the right side of the path? 

[davep043]

1 minute ago, Krt22 said:

Interesting. What if the ball is on the left side of the path so the NPCR is left of the path, but there isn't enough room to drop outside of the PA. In that case does the NPCR shift to the right side of the path? 

How much room does it take to drop a ball?  I've seen situations where a stroke at a ball anywhere in that narrow strip of grass would still face interference from the path, especially if the paved path is above the level of the grass.  That means to me that you wouldn't get complete relief in that spot, that it doesn't qualify as NPCR.  So its possible that the Nearest Point of Complete Relief is to the fairway side, even if there's a narrow strip of General Area on the PA side.  As I said earlier, everything depends on the specific situation.

And I'm glad @Mr. Bean has been watching, I know he'll correct me if I say something foolish.

[Krt22]

Just now, davep043 said:

How much room does it take to drop a ball?  I've seen situations where a stroke at a ball anywhere in that narrow strip of grass would still face interference from the path, especially if the paved path is above the level of the grass.  That means to me that you wouldn't get complete relief in that spot, that it doesn't qualify as NPCR.  So its possible that the Nearest Point of Complete Relief is to the fairway side, even if there's a narrow strip of General Area on the PA side.  As I said earlier, everything depends on the specific situation.

And I'm glad @Mr. Bean has been watching, I know he'll correct me if I say something foolish.

Let's say the strip is 2ft wide, but like you said your intent is to hit it lefty.  In which case there isn't enough room to get full relief from the cart path (ie feet would still be on it) without dropping it in the PA. 

[davep043]

1 minute ago, Krt22 said:

Let's say the strip is 2ft wide, but like you said your intent is to hit it lefty.  In which case there isn't enough room to get full relief from the cart path (ie feet would still be on it) without dropping it in the PA. 

Your initial NPCR is based on the same basic stroke you'd make if the path wasn't there, and it must be a reasonable choice.  If you'd make a right-handed stroke if the path wasn't there, you must select the nearest point based on relief from the path for a right-handed swing and stance.  If there's 2 feet of General Area to the left of the path, and the ball is on the path, you'd almost certainly have room to make a normal right-handed swing.  

Its a good idea to read the definition of Nearest Point of Complete Relief, as well as Rule 14.1 and the first two Interpretations, they deal with specifically these sets of situations.