Phil Debate - Top 10 All Time

[Arn]

He’s top 10 for sure. Longevity is huge, his first win was 91, now he’s the oldest major champion by a mile. He also plays in the deepest fields pro golf has ever seen.

[SkiSchoolPro]

1 hour ago, MtlJeff said:

 

It's a good point , i just find it very hard to evaluate when his prime pretty much coincided with the greatest 10yr stretch any golfer has ever had ever, basically. If Tiger had never come around, maybe there's a 4-5 yr stretch where Phil is #1

 

I do agree that the one major hole in Phil's resume is he never had a pure a**-kicking stretch, kind of like Vijay did back in 2005 or whatever year that was, i think it was '05

 

I think historically we tend to look for one guy from each era to make our lists, as subconsciously we just can't get past seeing the guy as #2. I think we'll do the same thing to Peyton Manning in the NFL over time. Phil was never "the man", but it's possible that had a lot more to do with timing than we care to like. Hard to imagine Phil wouldn't have been #1 for a long time without Tiger

 

 

As a lefty, I like Phil, but agree with @Dave230 and @MtlJeff

There is no debate that Phil Mickelson is the 2nd best player of his generation and his PGA win is unique among those 50+, but there are a number of holes in his resume when you start talking about top 10. How many all time greats have never won a season long title or been ranked #1 in their sport? Since Phil's first PGA Tour Win in 1991:

• 16 different Players not named Phil Mickelson have been awarded PGA Player of the Year and 15 PGA Tour Player of the Year. In addition to Tiger, Rory and Nick Price have won both multiple times. Couples, Koepka, JT & DJ have multiple wins in one award.
• 17 Players have led the PGA Tour in Official Money. JT and Vijay have done it 3 times each while Rory and Price have 2 money titles.
• 16 different Players have each won the Vardon and Nelson season long scoring titles. Rory has won each 3 times while Spieth, Couples and DJ have won both twice. 
• Since 2007, Tiger and Rory have won the Fed Ex Cup title twice, while 10 other players have won single titles (including Vijay and Jim Furyk who are both older than Phil).
• 23 different Players have been OWGR #1. Tiger held this position 11 times for a total of 683 weeks. Ernie Els and Vijay took the top spot from Tiger 3 times each, Duval twice and Greg Norman, Lee Westwood & Adam Scott once each.

Mickelson can be super proud of his career. Winning the PGA at 50 is a testament to hard work and longevity. The way he transformed his game to win the Open was also super impressive, but hard for me to think of any top 10 all time in any sport (team or individual) who was never the best for a single season.

Edited May 24, 2021 by SkiSchoolPro

[JohnnyCashForever]

My top 11 (in no particular order):

• Hogan
• Nicklaus
• Woods
• Jones
• Snead
• Trevino
• Sarazen
• Player
• Hagen
• Tom Watson
• Palmer

Next level below the Top 11:

• Faldo
• Phil
• Seve

Next level:

• Floyd
• Irwin
• Byron Nelson
• Larry Nelson
• Payne Stewart

Great, but how great?  Who knows?:

• Harry Vardon
• Spieth
• Rory
• Brooks
• All the other guys who won multiple British Opens before the modern era and/or before US pros regularly played the tournament (Braid, John Henry Taylor, Peter Thomson, etc.)

 

 

Notes:

 

Not Top 10 but in Good Company: IMO, Phil still belongs in the group with Faldo and Seve.  All three are/were fantastic players, but are they better than Palmer or Watson, the two weakest players (IMO) in my top 11?  It doesn't feel like it. 

 

Why Phil isn't better than Palmer or Watson: Phil was made for TV, but Palmer created modern televised golf.  Phil competed in the Tiger era, but Watson competed in the Nicklaus era and proved that Nicklaus was beatable.  Put another way, if Watson never played golf, Nicklaus would likely have had 4 more majors (Augusta 1977, Turnberry 1977, Augusta 1981, and Pebble 1982).  Phil never took from Tiger.  That is, he never won a major where Tiger finished 2nd. 

 

Phil's story is coming to an end, but their stories aren't even halfway done: Spieth, Rory, and Brooks have decades before their careers are completed.  Any one of these could eclipse Phil when all is said and done.

Career Grand Slam is the game changer:  I doubt that Sarazen or Player would be in the top 10 without the career grand slam.  But they have it, and only 3 other players in all of golf history can say the same thing.  Phil can't.  But if Phil were to win at Torrey Pines this year, then Phil is definitely in the Top 10.  No questions asked.  

 

[puttingmatt]

I simply look at sports careers as 

Getting the career you can get

Not getting what the career you may want.

Every player can tell about missed opportunities that could have altered an outcome in a tournament.

I would rank Phil in the top 20, 

Edited May 24, 2021 by puttingmatt

[bscinstnct]

22 minutes ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

As a lefty, I like Phil, but agree with @Dave230 and @MtlJeff

There is no debate that Phil Mickelson is the 2nd best player of his generation and his PGA win is unique among those 50+, but there are a number of holes in his resume when you start talking about top 10. How many all time greats have never won a season long title or been ranked #1 in their sport? Since Phil's first PGA Tour Win in 1991:

• 16 different Players not named Phil Mickelson have been awarded PGA Player of the Year and 15 PGA Tour Player of the Year. In addition to Tiger, Rory and Nick Price have won both multiple times. Couples, Koepka, JT & DJ have multiple wins in one award.
• 17 Players have led the PGA Tour in Official Money. JT and Vijay have done it 3 times each while Rory and Price have 2 money titles.
• 16 different Players have each won the Vardon and Nelson season long scoring titles. Rory has won each 3 times while Spieth, Couples and DJ have won both twice. 
• Since 2007, Tiger and Rory have won the Fed Ex Cup title twice, while 10 other players have won single titles (including Vijay and Jim Furyk who are both older than Phil).
• 23 different Players have been OWGR #1. Tiger held this position 11 times for a total of 683 weeks. Ernie Els and Vijay took the top spot from Tiger 3 times each, Duval twice and Greg Norman, Lee Westwood & Adam Scott once each.

Mickelson can be super proud of his career. Winning the PGA at 50 is a testament to hard work and longevity. The way he transformed his game to win the Open was also super impressive, but hard for me to think of any top 10 all time in any sport (team or individual) who was never the best for a single season.

 

I think that, on its own, # 1 is meaningless when your #2 to Tiger Woods.

 

For 10 years. 10 years! Only one guy besides TW was #1 and VJ had it for a total of 39 weeks. 
 

Right after TW you had:

 

Lee Westwood was #1

Luke Donald was #1

 

Due respect but compared to Phil, they stink.

 

So, I think the factors are wins.

 

6 Majors

45 PGA Tour wins. 

 

 

[Abh159]

He's definitely in my Top-10. 

 

Personally I think it's almost impossible to compare guys from the 20s, 30s, and 40s to the players from today (that goes for every sport). The game just evolves so much over time, the level of competition improves, and etc. 

 

Yeah someone like Walter Hagen was an amazing player and one of the all time greats, but can you really compare the tournament fields of the 20s and 30s to the fields of the 00s and today? 

 

 

[MtlJeff]

6 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

I think that, on its own, # 1 is meaningless when your #2 to Tiger Woods.

 

For 10 years. 10 years! Only one guy besides TW was #1 and VJ had it for a total of 39 weeks. 
 

Right after TW you had:

 

Lee Westwood was #1

Luke Donald was #1

 

Due respect but compared to Phil, they stink.

 

So, I think the factors are wins.

 

6 Majors

45 PGA Tour wins. 

 

 

 

@Dave230 made a lot of good points that i don't really disagree with. But i don't really disagree with you either....It's really hard to say. Would Phil have been #1 for long stretches without Tiger? Or would he have fumbled that up a bit too....Did he enjoy being the underdog more and never really have that whole "killer" thing that longtime #1's seem to have

 

I really have no idea. I like Phil though....as a lefty, this is mandatory

 

 

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, Ferguson said:

On my all-time list, he just moved from 18 to 11. 

 

I wondered why the land went dark about an hour ago for just a second!!!! 😀

[fowlerscousin]

He is 3 greatest all time, I'm bias because I think the modern game is just that difficult, this latest pga victory is worth like 3x majors from yesteryear.  I'm also putting the thumb on the scale because I think phil will collect another pga tour victory of some kind or a solid 3-0 ryder.

[Johnnypenso]

57 minutes ago, JohnnyCashForever said:

My top 11 (in no particular order):

• Hogan
• Nicklaus
• Woods
• Jones
• Snead
• Trevino
• Sarazen
• Player
• Hagen
• Tom Watson
• Palmer

Next level below the Top 11:

• Faldo
• Phil
• Seve

Next level:

• Floyd
• Irwin
• Byron Nelson
• Larry Nelson
• Payne Stewart

Great, but how great?  Who knows?:

• Harry Vardon
• Spieth
• Rory
• Brooks
• All the other guys who won multiple British Opens before the modern era and/or before US pros regularly played the tournament (Braid, John Henry Taylor, Peter Thomson, etc.)

 

 

Notes:

 

Not Top 10 but in Good Company: IMO, Phil still belongs in the group with Faldo and Seve.  All three are/were fantastic players, but are they better than Palmer or Watson, the two weakest players (IMO) in my top 11?  It doesn't feel like it. 

 

Why Phil isn't better than Palmer or Watson: Phil was made for TV, but Palmer created modern televised golf.  Phil competed in the Tiger era, but Watson competed in the Nicklaus era and proved that Nicklaus was beatable.  Put another way, if Watson never played golf, Nicklaus would likely have had 4 more majors (Augusta 1977, Turnberry 1977, Augusta 1981, and Pebble 1982).  Phil never took from Tiger.  That is, he never won a major where Tiger finished 2nd. 

 

Phil's story is coming to an end, but their stories aren't even halfway done: Spieth, Rory, and Brooks have decades before their careers are completed.  Any one of these could eclipse Phil when all is said and done.

Career Grand Slam is the game changer:  I doubt that Sarazen or Player would be in the top 10 without the career grand slam.  But they have it, and only 3 other players in all of golf history can say the same thing.  Phil can't.  But if Phil were to win at Torrey Pines this year, then Phil is definitely in the Top 10.  No questions asked.  

 

I can get on board with most of this especially ranking Lee Trevino so highly. There are a lot of "what if's" in golf like "what if Tiger didn't get hurt" or "what if Bobby Jones played in the modern era" etc. But one of the biggest what if's is "what if Lee Trevino had started on tour at 22 or 23 instead of 27 or 28? I mean Jack and Lee are within one year of each other and Jack won 7 majors and 25 total victories before Lee ever made it out to the Tour.   From 68' to 74' Lee won 19 times with 5 majors one of the best stretches of golf ever.

[PhilWhitUK]

Phil for me is definitely in my top 15. A career slam would put him in my top 10.

 

For me one of his strengths is that he managed to keep belief in the Tiger era.  Personally I think without Tiger that Ernie would have been the dominant player and would likely have six or more majors.  However, his belief was hit, in my view, by the relentless pursuit of titles from Tiger.

 

Would Phil have won more majors early without Tiger or would Ernie have picked up more.  I think the latter.

 

That being said I would always chose to follow a group containing Phil if I was watching a tournament.

 

 

[PixlPutterman]

With Tiger's dominance, how many weeks did he spend in the top 10 OWGR?

 

From '96 - '13 he was outside the top 10 just 3 years, and those years he stayed inside the top 20. You take Tiger out and Phil is top 4 of those years........

 

[MUNIGRIT]

Absolutely he is. His game has stood the test of time and has been good at every level/age capable of winning a tournament. 

[Ferguson]

2 hours ago, JohnnyCashForever said:

My top 11 (in no particular order):

• Hogan
• Nicklaus
• Woods
• Jones
• Snead
• Trevino
• Sarazen
• Player
• Hagen
• Tom Watson
• Palmer

Next level below the Top 11:

• Faldo
• Phil
• Seve

Next level:

• Floyd
• Irwin
• Byron Nelson
• Larry Nelson
• Payne Stewart

Great, but how great?  Who knows?:

• Harry Vardon
• Spieth
• Rory
• Brooks
• All the other guys who won multiple British Opens before the modern era and/or before US pros regularly played the tournament (Braid, John Henry Taylor, Peter Thomson, etc.)

 

 

Notes:

 

Not Top 10 but in Good Company: IMO, Phil still belongs in the group with Faldo and Seve.  All three are/were fantastic players, but are they better than Palmer or Watson, the two weakest players (IMO) in my top 11?  It doesn't feel like it. 

 

Why Phil isn't better than Palmer or Watson: Phil was made for TV, but Palmer created modern televised golf.  Phil competed in the Tiger era, but Watson competed in the Nicklaus era and proved that Nicklaus was beatable.  Put another way, if Watson never played golf, Nicklaus would likely have had 4 more majors (Augusta 1977, Turnberry 1977, Augusta 1981, and Pebble 1982).  Phil never took from Tiger.  That is, he never won a major where Tiger finished 2nd. 

 

Phil's story is coming to an end, but their stories aren't even halfway done: Spieth, Rory, and Brooks have decades before their careers are completed.  Any one of these could eclipse Phil when all is said and done.

Career Grand Slam is the game changer:  I doubt that Sarazen or Player would be in the top 10 without the career grand slam.  But they have it, and only 3 other players in all of golf history can say the same thing.  Phil can't.  But if Phil were to win at Torrey Pines this year, then Phil is definitely in the Top 10.  No questions asked.  

 

 

 

Was this a project for school? 

 

 

[PixlPutterman]

We can come up with statistical ways to put him in the top ten, just as well as place him outside of the top ten.

 

One thing though, he is easily top 10 of what has done for the game, on of the top entertainers the game has ever seen.

[PJE]

I have him at about 11. If he completes the career Grand Slam, certainly the top 10. If he wins another major, probably the top 10. 

[FargoRC]

Bottom of the top 10 for sure after this win. 

[SkiSchoolPro]

3 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

I think that, on its own, # 1 is meaningless when your #2 to Tiger Woods.

 

For 10 years. 10 years! Only one guy besides TW was #1 and VJ had it for a total of 39 weeks. 
 

Right after TW you had:

 

Lee Westwood was #1

Luke Donald was #1

 

Due respect but compared to Phil, they stink.

 

So, I think the factors are wins.

 

6 Majors

45 PGA Tour wins. 

 

 

I agree Westwood and Donald's careers don't compare to Phil's.

 

We are looking at the same stats, but from a different angle.

 

Not only do Nicklaus, Woods, Hagen, Hogan, Player, Watson, Palmer, Snead, Sarazen, Jones and Vardon have more majors than Mickelson, but I am pretty sure that each has had a period where they were considered number #1 in Golf and/or had the best season of any player.

 

Tiger 1st became OWGR #1 June 15, 1997 and was last ranked #1 May 17, 2014. During that time period, not only did Westwood and Donald hold the #1 position, but so did Norman, Els, Duval, Singh, Kaymer, and McIlroy. I don't think I have heard any of those 8 mentioned as Top 10 all time greats and many might not be in the top 20 or even top 50. So, if 8 different non-top 10 all time guys could make it to #1 in the Tiger era, why couldn't Phil? 

 

In total, there are probably 30 to 40 guys since 1991 who have been ranked #1 or won at least 1 season long award/title ($, POY, Scoring Ave, FedEx Cup), but Phil has never done this- maybe that will change with a 2nd major this year or victory in East Lake.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by SkiSchoolPro

[bscinstnct]

9 minutes ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

I agree Westwood and Donald's careers don't compare to Phil's.

 

We are looking at the same stats, but from a different angle.

 

Not only do Nicklaus, Woods, Hagen, Hogan, Player, Watson, Palmer, Snead, Sarazen, Jones and Vardon have more majors than Mickelson, but I am pretty sure that each has had a period where they were considered number #1 in Golf and/or had the best season of any player.

 

Tiger 1st became OWGR #1 June 15, 1997 and was last ranked #1 May 17, 2014. During that time period, not only did Westwood and Donald hold the #1 position, but so did Norman, Els, Duval, Singh, Kaymer, and McIlroy. I don't think I have heard any of those 8 mentioned as Top 10 all time greats and many might not be in the top 20 or even top 50. So, if 8 different non-top 10 all time guys could make it to #1 in the Tiger era, why couldn't Phil? 

 

In total, there are probably 30 to 40 guys since 1991 who have been ranked #1 or won at least 1 season long award/title ($, POY, Scoring Ave, FedEx Cup), but Phil has never done this- maybe that will change with a 2nd major this year or victory in East Lake.

 

 

 

 

 

Nobody besides VJ was #1 for 10 years besides Tiger Woods.

 

10 years straight. 
 

In his career, Phil has been ranked #2 for 270 weeks. I think it’s obvious that without TW in the picture, Phil has his time in the #1 spot. 

[NormanFan]

4 hours ago, JohnnyCashForever said:

My top 11 (in no particular order):

• Hogan
• Nicklaus
• Woods
• Jones
• Snead
• Trevino
• Sarazen
• Player
• Hagen
• Tom Watson
• Palmer

Next level below the Top 11:

• Faldo
• Phil
• Seve

Next level:

• Floyd
• Irwin
• Byron Nelson
• Larry Nelson
• Payne Stewart

Great, but how great?  Who knows?:

• Harry Vardon
• Spieth
• Rory
• Brooks
• All the other guys who won multiple British Opens before the modern era and/or before US pros regularly played the tournament (Braid, John Henry Taylor, Peter Thomson, etc.)

 

 

Notes:

 

Not Top 10 but in Good Company: IMO, Phil still belongs in the group with Faldo and Seve.  All three are/were fantastic players, but are they better than Palmer or Watson, the two weakest players (IMO) in my top 11?  It doesn't feel like it. 

 

Why Phil isn't better than Palmer or Watson: Phil was made for TV, but Palmer created modern televised golf.  Phil competed in the Tiger era, but Watson competed in the Nicklaus era and proved that Nicklaus was beatable.  Put another way, if Watson never played golf, Nicklaus would likely have had 4 more majors (Augusta 1977, Turnberry 1977, Augusta 1981, and Pebble 1982).  Phil never took from Tiger.  That is, he never won a major where Tiger finished 2nd. 

 

Phil's story is coming to an end, but their stories aren't even halfway done: Spieth, Rory, and Brooks have decades before their careers are completed.  Any one of these could eclipse Phil when all is said and done.

Career Grand Slam is the game changer:  I doubt that Sarazen or Player would be in the top 10 without the career grand slam.  But they have it, and only 3 other players in all of golf history can say the same thing.  Phil can't.  But if Phil were to win at Torrey Pines this year, then Phil is definitely in the Top 10.  No questions asked.  

 

 

Good list on the whole but I think Greg Norman should be in that "Next level" category, especially if Payne Stewart is going to be in there.  The two majors only holds him back but its tough to discount other parts of the Shark's career outside of majors.

[NormanFan]

15 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

Nobody besides VJ was #1 for 10 years besides Tiger Woods.

 

10 years straight. 
 

In his career, Phil has been ranked #2 for 270 weeks. I think it’s obvious that without TW in the picture, Phil has his time in the #1 spot. 

One thing I always liked about Vijay is that during the era of Tiger's dominance he was the only guy to really step up and take the #1 spot from Tiger.  Duval had his moment, but Vijay displayed a lot more fight.

[cdnglf]

54 minutes ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

I agree Westwood and Donald's careers don't compare to Phil's.

 

We are looking at the same stats, but from a different angle.

 

Not only do Nicklaus, Woods, Hagen, Hogan, Player, Watson, Palmer, Snead, Sarazen, Jones and Vardon have more majors than Mickelson, but I am pretty sure that each has had a period where they were considered number #1 in Golf and/or had the best season of any player.

 

Tiger 1st became OWGR #1 June 15, 1997 and was last ranked #1 May 17, 2014. During that time period, not only did Westwood and Donald hold the #1 position, but so did Norman, Els, Duval, Singh, Kaymer, and McIlroy. I don't think I have heard any of those 8 mentioned as Top 10 all time greats and many might not be in the top 20 or even top 50. So, if 8 different non-top 10 all time guys could make it to #1 in the Tiger era, why couldn't Phil? 

 

In total, there are probably 30 to 40 guys since 1991 who have been ranked #1 or won at least 1 season long award/title ($, POY, Scoring Ave, FedEx Cup), but Phil has never done this- maybe that will change with a 2nd major this year or victory in East Lake.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Getting to #1 and season awards are nice, but a lot of it is circumstance and timing - see Tom Lehman and Luke Donald.

 

As munigrit and others have noted, Phil's OWGR average was more than enough to be #1 under normal (ie non-Tiger) circumstances. He probably had 10 seasons as good as the year Donald won PotY, he just didn't happen to have one of them in 2011. He won back-to-back majors (and nearly 3 in a row) in 2005/6, but people don't remember because they were in different years (also, Tiger was pretty good then).

 

Ultimately, the sport is about wins. A single 6-win season, 2 3-win seasons, 3 2-win seasons... does it really matter that much?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2021 by cdnglf

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, PixlPutterman said:

With Tiger's dominance, how many weeks did he spend in the top 10 OWGR?

 

From '96 - '13 he was outside the top 10 just 3 years, and those years he stayed inside the top 20. You take Tiger out and Phil is top 4 of those years........

 

Did Phil win a lot more when Tiger was not playing? Did Phil have some incredible record of 2nd places, 3rd places and the like behind Tiger? Not seeing how Phil slides into the top 4 for 17 years unless he was basically  top 5 all of those years - maybe he was, not looking it up, but guessing not. 

[Fairways_and_Greens]

4 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

I think that, on its own, # 1 is meaningless when your #2 to Tiger Woods.

 

For 10 years. 10 years! Only one guy besides TW was #1 and VJ had it for a total of 39 weeks. 
 

Right after TW you had:

 

Lee Westwood was #1

Luke Donald was #1

 

Due respect but compared to Phil, they stink.

 

So, I think the factors are wins.

 

6 Majors

45 PGA Tour wins. 

 

 

Did you just turn this into a golf rankings are lame thread, because I think you did.

[aenemated]

I put Phil in my top 5.

 

Tiger

Jack

Ben

Arnie

Phil

 

I don't see anyone getting to or beating 45 wins, really. Talent level is too deep and the money for being in the top 20 is too much for anyone to REALLY put in the work. Rory could have ... but he just doesn't have the fire needed, IMHO. 

Edited May 24, 2021 by aenemated

[ClarkGrswld4]

He was in the top 10 before yesterday if you ask me. Played/is playing in a much tougher era than most.

[bscinstnct]

36 minutes ago, NormanFan said:

One thing I always liked about Vijay is that during the era of Tiger's dominance he was the only guy to really step up and take the #1 spot from Tiger.  Duval had his moment, but Vijay displayed a lot more fight.

 

VJ killed it in 2004. 9 wins and a Major.

 

TW only had one win in 2004. But 9 wins is as good a year as TW ever had. 
 

Those were awesome years to be a golf fan with Phil, VJ, Ernie, Adam Scott, Sergio.

 

Goooooosen! ; )

[munichop]

I tend to look at these list generationally. Phil is the second best of his generation which in my view spans a greater change in technology and agronomy than any other. He began with persimmon, balatas and blades all with heavy steel shafts on greens under 9 on the stimp meter. Now the game is bomb and gouge multilayer urethane distance balls, 460 cc drivers, lightweight everything to max out club speed.  Yet he learned to play in the wind and play great golf throughout without losing his joy to compete.  That is pretty special stuff.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

6 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

What the heck was Phil doing all those years not winning more majors?

 

I mean, I was watching, but how did it all slip by with him winning just 5?

 

I guess we look at his 6 times 2nd/T2 at the US Open. I think a couple of those he he really should have won.

 

But you see the guy yesterday and it’s like

 

How this guy not have 10 majors?

 

Could be fitness. You look at pics of him when he won the 2005 PGA and he looks 10x more fit now. 

 

 

 

He spent so much time as the 'best without a major', somehow he didn't manage to win one until he was 34, which is hard to believe. 

 

I think it would be difficult to keep him out of a top 10 at this point. 

[Medson]

Looks like yesterday's win moved him to borderline top 10 in a lot of people's list. 

 

He's just outside of top 10 in my list. A win in the U.S. Open will definitely solidify top 10 in everyone's list.