Anyone (else) feel adverse to getting lessons

[SylvesterLundgren]

19 hours ago, JJFWebster said:

Got down to a 5.5 without instruction but have been stuck here for a couple years. Finally let the ego go and got lessons every Saturday through the off season. Striking the ball so much better now that I have the early extension under control. Hopefully I can move the index when covid rules relax in my area. Only getting 9 at a time because the tee sheet is slammed.

Yeah I feel I’m in a spot like that too. Probably could tighten up my score if I get the right insight to help those swing inconsistencies. That’s what’s motivating me lightly with my approach. 

[SylvesterLundgren]

18 hours ago, COACH9 said:

I wouldn't mind a quality instructor taking a look at my swing. But the ones at the clubs I practice at appear to be hacks.

I see them letting their students make the same mistakes over and over without correction. I truly believe I know more about the swing then they do. All seem to have their cookie cutter approach.

Do a couple of those, do a couple of these type of guys 🌝😂 feel like they got their instruction tips straight from the golf magazine (no disrespect to the magazine) 

Edited May 25, 2021 by SylvesterLundgren

[SylvesterLundgren]

19 hours ago, Shilgy said:

I can’t recall which pro it was I read recently that has never seen his own swing.  Afraid he would chase a look rather than results.  Many of us know just enough about the swing to be dangerous to our own game.  If video was that important we could self diagnose.

 

That said…..OP how old are you?  I ask because you mentioned junior golf but your avatar says you are a 5-11 handicap.  One, that is a huge spread and two….if that is correct why do you desire to keep using your own swing?  Get an instructor…ask around with with junior golf friends and go to who they suggest.  If it is even semi serious junior golf most of them will have at least one.  And trust him or her.  Change WILL FEEL DIFFERENT.  That is not a bad thing as it does feel different to make the necessary changes.

Good luck!

I’m 24 and JUCO (junior college/community college) lol I’ve been playing for 10 years and I only put the number because I shoot mid 70s -low 80 mostly all the time with a rusty swing cause I haven’t been out there back to back. Life has gotten in the way over time naturally but this a naturale swing and one that can be very consistent (hitting the center and  having misses come out the center is normal for me because I fall into a pathing issue) when I am swinging how you’re supposed to. 

[SylvesterLundgren]

12 hours ago, AndersUK said:

As with any education YOU have the power of choice to accept information and use it or simply disregard it.

 

Also, a change of attitude might be required?  I am generally outspoken about the overall poor standard of coaching in this game.  However, even I have an open mind and give the benefit of the doubt to any new coach.  Golf is hard but their job is harder.

Lol I typed this in a discourages mood. I should be a little more accepting but until I get to know whoever I am going to still feel like you’re not my friend just cause I paid for a service lol 

[SylvesterLundgren]

10 hours ago, naval2006 said:

I was selftaught as a kid and I similarly followed that path.  In my early 30's I started taking lessons and I discovered my real potential and I played for a handful of years an outstanding golf.

 

Unless you follow a career as a pro golfer it's highly unlikely that you find your game in the dirt: no time, the daily grind, etc.  And especially if you take up the game as an adult.  

 

The good thing for rivals about not wanting to take lessons is it's harder to play well and you'll lose more than you'll win.  

Honestly that’s why I feel I may need some outside instruction to truly level off whatever my needs happen to be. Cause I’m sure we’ve all been around when someone compliments the swing and the flow of your golf and think you got it from someone. In reality it’s been because we found out the way to play the game through our own foundation/coordination. 
it’s like this quote “all that talent can be a waste if you don’t sharpen it into a skill” or something 

[Shilgy]

7 minutes ago, SylvesterLundgren said:

I’m 24 and JUCO (junior college/community college) lol I’ve been playing for 10 years and I only put the number because I shoot mid 70s -low 80 mostly all the time with a rusty swing cause I haven’t been out there back to back. Life has gotten in the way over time naturally but this a naturale swing and one that can be very consistent (hitting the center and  having misses come out the center is normal for me because I fall into a pathing issue) when I am swinging how you’re supposed to. 

My point stays the same then.  

 

1 minute ago, SylvesterLundgren said:

Honestly that’s why I feel I may need some outside instruction to truly level off whatever my needs happen to be. Cause I’m sure we’ve all been around when someone compliments the swing and the flow of your golf and think you got it from someone. In reality it’s been because we found out the way to play the game through our own foundation/coordination. 
it’s like this quote “all that talent can be a waste if you don’t sharpen it into a skill” or something 

Sounds like you have decided some instruction would be good for your game. Keep us posted on progress!

[SylvesterLundgren]

9 hours ago, jc2 said:

I never thought I wanted to see an instructor, but now I think it is super valuable to have a good set of eyes on your swing.  The key is finding the right teacher. You want someone who is going to work within you want to do and are willing to do.  For me I needed someone to help me understand what I was feeling and how that was impacting what I was getting out of my swing but I didn't know that at the time.  

 

I got down to a 3HCP with no instruction, but could shoot 72-75 one day and in the 90s the next.  I knew my tendencies and had a swing that felt like it was doing the right thing, but I wanted to find some consistency.   Went to a reasonably local guy who came highly recommended, he took a look and said you need to change your grip, your stance, ball placement, blah blah blah.  Kept showing me videos of Rory compared to mine.  Gave me a drill to stop from shifting my weight that ended up causing knee pain which he said would stop me from doing that.  I guess he underestimated my ability to keep doing stupid things despite physical pain.  So at this point I know all the things that make my swing worse than Rory's.  Go out to play that afternoon and shoot a shade below 100.  I'm trying to trust these new ideas, the grip, the stance.  But I am missing both directions, fat shots, thin shots, it was brutal but I trusted the guy.  I went to the range a few times per week to work on things and just continued to get worse and worse.  Instead of 70s and 80s it was 90s, and I started to dislike playing golf and my knee hurt when I practiced.  Despite my best intentions I was not Rory.  So I abandoned everything to go back to my homebrew swing and at least stopped hating golf. 

 

A year or so later I was back in the same place as I was before the instructor score-wise and was asked by a regular golf trip buddy if I would be interested in doing a golf school thing where you get instruction in the AM and play a round in the PM. After my first experience I wasn't super excited, but I figured worst case is that the instructor works with my buddy and that I get a whole lot of range time and some rounds on really nice courses.  The first thing the instructor did when we signed up was to ask us about our games, what strengths and weaknesses, where we wanted to improve.  He got some initial videos of my swing, and instead of comparing it to a professional golfer explained how the things I was doing would impact the swing.  The shifting of weight caused my ball position to move back, which ended up causing my grip to become so strong and I had to swing hard to get any kind of distance.  He said that it was pretty interesting that I could make that hunk of junk swing work (occasionally) and showed me how little margin for error that I had.  Back hitting balls he made small changes to what I was doing, starting with the grip.  It felt awful like I was going to lose the club and I couldn't make decent contact with the ball, but he had me stick with it.  Ok now let's try that grip with a different ball position.  Still felt awful and couldn't hit the ball.  I'm thinking here we go again in a year or 2 maybe I'll be able to golf again.  Ok now, let's change the takeaway a little, and try to get rid of that slide.  I couldn't get a decent ball flight in 20 shots and I felt like all my body parts were doing different things, and at that point he took another video.  Now we compared the new video to the old one.  Now I could easily see how the position of my hands and head were more stable through the swing.  So now it's obvious to me that this swing that feels like a random compilation of body movements is an improvement, and instead of chasing Rory's swing we were trying to get my improved swing to be the new normal.  It took a lot of balls to to get the new swing to feel remotely normal, and the first few rounds were terrible scoring.  But what I saw was that instead of my score fluctuating by 15 strokes from one day to the next it was maybe 7-8.  Because I had begun to understand my swing and what the changes meant, I trusted it.  The first thing was that the new grip felt normal, and then the ball position started to look normal.  Then the swing had to follow if I wanted to hit the ball.  Over a few months it became a much more consistent swing and my scores showed that.  

 

No student is going to be the same, have the same game, have the same ability to swing the club, or need the same things to have a repeatable golf swing.  If an instructor tries to make your swing into something instead of improving what you have I don't think it's going to work.  A good instructor that knows your swing is also a great tool to have for maintenance, I can email a quick video and get feedback like what to watch out for as some bad habits sneak back in over time.

Other than the instruction part, you just described my twin brother and I. We have eachother to stop the basic faults of a bad swing but not our personal faults (intricate, past our knowledge) we can both play our golf in that same kinda range. You’ve and the other homegrown fellers have given me the perspective I needed (known but didn’t accept) thanks 

[SylvesterLundgren]

8 hours ago, MelloYello said:

If you tend towards having a cynical view of instructors, just keep in mind that a good instructor is only trying to get you back towards more neutral positions. 

 

And just so you know, if you're against neutral positions because you covet your own flawed tendencies, it's not the instructor who's wrong. 😉 

Yeah it can be defiantly arrogant to say that but I know what you’re saying 

[nsxguy]

Anybody see the paralel between this thread and ol' Abe talking about lawyers ?

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by nsxguy

[SylvesterLundgren]

9 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

My point stays the same then.  

 

Sounds like you have decided some instruction would be good for your game. Keep us posted on progress!

Well I played today with my brother and it was a good session. I shot a 81 on the east course Forrest Akers (never played before) and was terrible off the tee. Made some putting errors. My contact with my irons were better than the range session (yesterday when I made this post) it’s been my driving that has always been a woe of mine but this year I have been doing significantly better than many years past(more in play tighter dispersion) 
context to my post :

it’s my driving that messes with me and my confidence foundation around the driver( will still bunker down and hit solid shots when necessary) 

I’m also in a spot where I’ll try to think through a swing mechanic instead of just playing golf (which is what I am better at)

Idk why I’ve allowed these kind of thoughts be apart of my approach but maybe it’s because I’ve been playing a ton more golf and have been involved in competition again. Idk but I just want to get the most out of my swing like when I do when I’m playing my better rounds ( but everyone is on when they’re on lol) 

[Baitkiller]

I don't want to do the work. If I take lessons,  then I have to practice.  We talkin 'bout practice!

[Pepperturbo]

I am always resistant to comparing tour professional choices to average Joe golfers, and call it a justifiable argument.  You know how many average drivers buy cars based on what race car drivers drive or how many take race car driving lessons? 

 

Then there's the more important aspect of this; even if an average Joe has some money to burn, most people don't have the commitment level to subscribe to similarly skilled teachers used by those Pros referenced above.   The other thing I know from personal experience, many golf teachers are good enough for beginners, but not talented enough to take a good amateur and make them better. 

 

I see it as one does NOT equal the other, in any sense other than the word "teacher."  I am self-taught using 3-books and after 8 months took a basic series of four-lessons to insure my mechanics were spot on, reached single digit in 4+yrs and a 2 in 6yrs.  That instructor today has a stable of eight or so touring pros and doesn't take new students unless they are highly dedicated tour bound.  If he did, his cost would be out of reach for most people.

 

We have a few good teachers on Golfwrx, but people are lucky if they live within driving distance of them.  That should say something too.

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[Shilgy]

19 minutes ago, SylvesterLundgren said:

Yeah it can be defiantly arrogant to say that but I know what you’re saying 

Definitely defiant lol.

 

My suggestion based on your post about the 81.   If you are happy with that keep doing what you are doing.

  If you are not satisfied you need to do one of two things.

 

1- take lessons from a pro.  As @MelloYellosuggested instruction can get you to more neutral positions to remove a big miss.  
  You may even find you like rapid improvement!

 

2- see an instructor once.  Have him identify what you do well and what you do not.  Thereafter when you play make your intent on every swing to do what you do well.  If you make a poor swing on a shot do not try to “fix” it on the next.  Just return to what you do well.

  It sounds like a subtle difference but the intent should always be to “do” something….not to “not do” something in our swing.

[SylvesterLundgren]

41 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Definitely defiant lol.

 

My suggestion based on your post about the 81.   If you are happy with that keep doing what you are doing.

  If you are not satisfied you need to do one of two things.

 

1- take lessons from a pro.  As @MelloYellosuggested instruction can get you to more neutral positions to remove a big miss.  
  You may even find you like rapid improvement!

 

2- see an instructor once.  Have him identify what you do well and what you do not.  Thereafter when you play make your intent on every swing to do what you do well.  If you make a poor swing on a shot do not try to “fix” it on the next.  Just return to what you do well.

  It sounds like a subtle difference but the intent should always be to “do” something….not to “not do” something in our swing.

Yeah I’m in the spot of “small adjustments”are what are stopping me from good shots and bad shots.  
also didn’t play golf for 2 days lol 

Edited May 26, 2021 by SylvesterLundgren

[SylvesterLundgren]

1 hour ago, Baitkiller said:

I don't want to do the work. If I take lessons,  then I have to practice.  We talkin 'bout practice!

Not a game! But.. practice 🤌🏻😂

[SylvesterLundgren]

50 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

I am always resistant to comparing tour professional choices to average Joe golfers, and call it a justifiable argument.  You know how many average drivers buy cars based on what race car drivers drive or how many take race car driving lessons? 

 

Then there's the more important aspect of this; even if an average Joe has some money to burn, most people don't have the commitment level to subscribe to similarly skilled teachers used by those Pros referenced above.   The other thing I know from personal experience, many golf teachers are good enough for beginners, but not talented enough to take a good amateur and make them better. 

 

I see it as one does NOT equal the other, in any sense other than the word "teacher."  I am self-taught using 3-books and after 8 months took a basic series of four-lessons to insure my mechanics were spot on, reached single digit in 4+yrs and a 2 in 6yrs.  That instructor today has a stable of eight or so touring pros and doesn't take new students unless they are highly dedicated tour bound.  If he did, his cost would be out of reach for most people.

 

We have a few good teachers on Golfwrx, but people are lucky if they live within driving distance of them.  That should say something too.

 

 

Ik what you’re saying. 
some people might not even get how to apply those things they get shone and never improve on other things. 

[indianagolf2]

22 hours ago, COACH9 said:

I wouldn't mind a quality instructor taking a look at my swing. But the ones at the clubs I practice at appear to be hacks.

I see them letting their students make the same mistakes over and over without correction. I truly believe I know more about the swing then they do. All seem to have their cookie cutter approach.

I have an instructor...very highly regarded. But I'd want to see the video he sends u back...must be serious or ask forums 

[Santiago Golf]

On 5/25/2021 at 7:10 AM, Hawkeye77 said:

@Santiago Golf might know - I think he's from Michigan.

 

I am from Michigan

 

Jason Guss is very good (including his whole staff)

 

Kyle Wittenbach

 

 

[SylvesterLundgren]

On 5/26/2021 at 11:23 PM, Santiago Golf said:

 

I am from Michigan

 

Jason Guss is very good (including his whole staff)

 

Kyle Wittenbach

 

 

Where are they based out of ? 

[DaveMc82]

Just my 2 cents. 
 

There are 2-3 actual teachers/instructors out there for every 10 you see giving lessons. The other 7-8 are ‘process’ workers who were taught to shape in people into the cookie cutter. 
 

The hardest thing is determining those who can help you with motor intent and conceptual understanding. A good example is the EE thread going on at the moment where the OP has hip turn but in the wrong way. This can be fixed by either changing the intent to achieve the position correctly (good instructor) or changing it in a way that it robs them of dynamic capacity to make a powerful swing (cookie cutter). 
 

Honestly, lessons are the best thing when you find the right person. You just have to be prepared to be decisive at cut anyone early enough if they appear of the cookie cutter variety. 

[Clubhoe]

If you go see 5 coaches, there's a very good chance you'll get 5 different opinions.

 

 

[Santiago Golf]

On 6/4/2021 at 4:12 PM, SylvesterLundgren said:

Where are they based out of ? 

 

 

I currently work as an Assistant Pro at a Resort in Wisconsin and I teach in Palm Desert CA during the Winter time

[MelloYello]

On 5/25/2021 at 7:44 PM, SylvesterLundgren said:

Cause I’m sure we’ve all been around when someone compliments the swing and the flow of your golf and think you got it from someone. In reality it’s been because we found out the way to play the game through our own foundation/coordination. 

 

I hadn't read this particular post but it brought up some thoughts about my own experience. I too received some of those "compliments" early on, usually with respect to my rhythm/tempo. I had a slow & deliberate take-away a la Hidecki Matsuyama. I think a lot of people probably saw that "smooth" backswing combined with decent-but-not-overwhelmingly-high swing speed and assumed I had something worth complimenting. I'm not sure I did, LOL. 

 

But I did play a lot of sports recreationally as a kid and so I was coordinated. As you point out, that means a lot. I was never someone who had to struggle much to break 100. I think I shot around 100 when I first began but that was where it started for me. I could always contact the ball and despite dealing with a big slice I learned to control it well enough to shoot in the 70s a few times within the first few years of playing. 

 

Consistency was not my strong suit though. Back then, I might shoot 78 one day and then go shoot 88 the next and really not have any explanation whatsoever as to what the difference was. Usually it was an abnormally high number of GIR that would drive my score "low" one particular round. 

 

Being able to establish more control over your swing so you hit more GIR is really what instruction is about. These days, good instructors know what works. As I said before, proper instructors have a good feel for what "neutral" is. Most have played very high levels of competitive golf themselves and have not only worked on their swing but also consulted with other top instructors and have usually taught hundreds of other golfers as well. 

 

I think forums like this (and a lot of the free content on YouTube) make golf instruction seem more like the old days or the Wild West, where students have to gamble on finding someone who's an effective "swing whisperer."

 

That's not how it is these days. You get what you pay for. The gentleman I worked with last year was great. Not only did we have video and Trackman but he obviously had a great understanding of biomechanics, too. He could get as technical as you wanted if that's the type of person you were but he saw himself as a coach, someone there to help people play better. Good instructors won't be any more invasive / destructive than you allow. They'll probably ask you right up front what kind of correction / commitment you're willing to make? You get with the right instructor and you can be Tiger Woods, but the question is inevitably are you willing to work that hard? 

 

FWIW, he also had played competitively so he wasn't unfamiliar with the strata of various skill levels. More importantly, he had worked with tons of serious juniors and even a few college players who as you know are all + handicaps. I only paid about $500 for the lesson package I got via the club membership I had at the time, but it was worth every penny. If I still lived in that area, I'd surely be planning another round of lessons this year. In fact, I still might since I could always drive a few hours to get back there. 

 

When I went to him I was playing well, but I was frustrated. I had driven the ball as well as I possibly could in a Club Championship and still only hit 50% of my GIR. I basically went in saying, 'if I'm in the middle of the fairway and still miss half of the greens, I must have something wrong. Please help me get better.'

 

He and I set about looking at my swing to see where the inconsistencies were and what I could do to get better. I had a lot right and my overall rhythm was good. My natural coordination was evident but I was getting into some "unhealthy" positions throughout the transition and was a little flippy at the bottom. So we attacked my setup position a little and worked on addressing my cuppy wrists and my sloppy over-swing.

 

I've been striking the ball better since then. I'm not perfect but the goal is to establish a target and to understand why you're setting that target there. That much I achieved in the lessons. However, you're probably going to have to put in a lot of work correcting your flaws. The lessons actually end up being the easy part. Committing to changes and pushing yourself to actually achieve new positions (rather than just new feels) is a challenge. It may take a year or two to really get where you want to be. 

 

I think you just need to find someone in your area. 

Edited June 6, 2021 by MelloYello

[indianagolf2]

This is the magic bullet...you have to know how much work is involved rather then just take a lesson here ot there. 

[dodgyman]

Lessons and self teaching are not mutually exclusive. I take lessons every 2 weeks, even then that is not enough if you want to improve. You still need to practice and discover your tendencies and find your swing.

 

What lessons do for me is they focus me on the right things. I am always amazed with how I mis-diagnose the root cause of my issues. A good instructor will explain what to work on, or what is causing your issues but you still do the work and can control your progression.

 

My most recent example was a discovery of sub optimal weight distribution on setup. This got me looking at a ton of great drills and then eventually finding what works for me. It’s still my swing, I still put in a ton of self practice, but I would have never gotten started if I didn’t see the issue or understand what it was causing and what to look for.

 

it must be hard to self assess a swing even if you know what you’re doing, and if you don’t do it professionally you’ll probably do more harm than good.

[NoTalentLefty]

As long as the teacher isn’t ingrained in one method, should be no problem. 

[SylvesterLundgren]

10 hours ago, dodgyman said:

Lessons and self teaching are not mutually exclusive. I take lessons every 2 weeks, even then that is not enough if you want to improve. You still need to practice and discover your tendencies and find your swing.

 

What lessons do for me is they focus me on the right things. I am always amazed with how I mis-diagnose the root cause of my issues. A good instructor will explain what to work on, or what is causing your issues but you still do the work and can control your progression.

 

My most recent example was a discovery of sub optimal weight distribution on setup. This got me looking at a ton of great drills and then eventually finding what works for me. It’s still my swing, I still put in a ton of self practice, but I would have never gotten started if I didn’t see the issue or understand what it was causing and what to look for.

 

it must be hard to self assess a swing even if you know what you’re doing, and if you don’t do it professionally you’ll probably do more harm than good.

Funny you say weight transfer, that was what my coach pointed out with me and after a bad round during my nationals we hit the range and once she indicated how weight transfer should be, my contact went back to how I knew and my distance came back. I was sliding into the ball instead of hitting through. 
but this did help me get more aware of that and what should be instead of what I would regress to. 

[Justsomeguy]

The right teacher makes all the difference. I've had 4 and one short golftec stint as well as an online analysis.

First guy stunk. Local legend who prob amazed his generation playing but his personality was inconsistent and half assed.

Second guy was great, and that's who I'm back with after trying more.

Golftec interlude. Wish I could unwind that experience. Made me worse. The hubris of overlaying my swing on an unnamed pro's.

Third guy was very good, but expensive as hell and more suited to a higher caliber player. I didn't mind the cash, but at the time (now?) I didn't need an outdoor trackman and private club.

Fourth guy was great, teaches kids, but he was too supportive and not critical enough and too general not specific.

Went back to second guy bc he's the only one besides 3 that really knew what I needed and went right to it and wasn't afraid to get in there. I'm playing my best golf ever right now since I resumed lessons w him. Something recently clicked and I've been enjoying the hell out of it.

Get a coach and don't be afraid to try multiple if you don't make progress. Results speak for themselves.

If you can go it alone and keep shooting lower and lower then you know something I don't.

[oscar10]

Had a Great golf instructor 4 years go who helped me take my handicap from like a 16.6 to 8.3 in three months. He just had a knack for seeing what was wrong  and how to help you. During that time I did exactly what he told me. I would see him about every 2 to 3 weeks for a lesson and they would only take 10 minutes because I practiced what he told me and went on to the next thing. Unfortunately he no longer teaches and now I’m afraid to try some one else. I guess if you find a teacher you click with listen to him or what’s the point? The funny part I find is that I see a lot of what Tyler Ferrell, Monte, and other online videos teach in what he showed me. But he knew what elements related to my swing. LOL

[phil75070]

I can count the number of lessons I've taken in over 60 years of playing golf on one hand (not counting my Dad getting me into the game). If I could find an instructor who could do what Butch Harmon is supposedly capable of, take what's there and tweak it, then I would stick with lessons. Each of the times I've taken a lesson the instructor had some swing theory or image of a swing that he tried to get me to imitate.