Professional Tour Caddies Today Are the Best They've Ever Been. Yet, Why Do So Many Pros Use Friends/Family as Caddies?

[Creedo77]

9 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

You're a good poster, so this is more tongue in cheek, but all I can think of when I read you posting here is "never ask a barber if you need a haircut."  

 

FTR, I do think there is some value in a caddie.  How much is debatable, but good ones help more than they hurt, definitely.  

For sure and it’s related to what I do everyday for work so I’m interested in the discussion 

 

It’s one of those subjects in the game where people think they know what is going on but generally don’t.

 

 

[Soloman1]

Just now, Creedo77 said:

It’s one of those subjects in the game where people think they know what is going on but generally don’t.

 

 

That's true for a lot of subjects . . . 🙂

[Creedo77]

17 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

 

It's quite possible, admittedly I definitely don't know everything about those dynamics. I feel like the biggest threat to caddies would be guys in the middle or bubble guys though, like guys who are worried a bad year might leave them off the tour. Do they feel that expense is worth it? Right now the answer seems to be yes, but is that just more customs? Will it change....I am curious to see trends over next 5-10 years, especially if the tour starts paying the top guys more at the expense of the middle and bubble guys

I don’t know the figure but I’d say anyone in the top 25 in the world is paying their guy a yearly salary. That number is probably closer to 50.

 

If you’re playing PGA tour golf the expense of a caddie isn’t going to set you back, because you’ve likely come up from the KFT and made $ there. 
 

Some players I know on the PGA have been on both sides of this topic. One guy was using a family member and for one reason or another stopped and just picked up a regular guy who has worked for top players. It could have been that the guy became available and felt like the change would benefit him

 

i know of another player who had a long time vet on his bag the first year he made it to the PGA. He played ok but opted to use a family member the 2nd year and he just had a great finish at Kiawah. 
 

it’s all situational based on the needs/wants of the player. But, there is a small group of players who are using family members so the value of a regular tour loop is still high

Edited May 26, 2021 by Creedo77

[paulshack]

I think in lee westwoods case, it's simple, because wife is hot 

[Arn]

Caddies are basically emotional support animals. Does your dog know you best or your neighbors?

[jons1]

1. Keep the money in the family.

2. Probably played so much golf together growing up they know your game as well as any body.

3. Can get away with saying the stuff the player needs to hear but doesn't want to or someone else would be afraid to say

4. Get to see more relatives while living the life on the road

 

I'm sure everyone has their reasons but I would think there are some obvious ones why it's not a terrible idea.  But I also agree there are plenty of very professional caddies and sometimes having a more business relationship than personal one can be better.  

[golfortennis]

8 hours ago, jons1 said:

1. Keep the money in the family.

2. Probably played so much golf together growing up they know your game as well as any body.

3. Can get away with saying the stuff the player needs to hear but doesn't want to or someone else would be afraid to say

4. Get to see more relatives while living the life on the road

 

I'm sure everyone has their reasons but I would think there are some obvious ones why it's not a terrible idea.  But I also agree there are plenty of very professional caddies and sometimes having a more business relationship than personal one can be better.  

 

I think this is underrated.  I think one of the questions a person needs to ask before hiring is "would I be ok firing this guy?"  Whether it's a financial planner, or caddie, you have to be willing to fire a person if they aren't performing.  Bringing friends/family into the mix complicates that question.  

 

 

[golfortennis]

10 hours ago, Creedo77 said:

I don’t know the figure but I’d say anyone in the top 25 in the world is paying their guy a yearly salary. That number is probably closer to 50.

 

If you’re playing PGA tour golf the expense of a caddie isn’t going to set you back, because you’ve likely come up from the KFT and made $ there. 
 

Some players I know on the PGA have been on both sides of this topic. One guy was using a family member and for one reason or another stopped and just picked up a regular guy who has worked for top players. It could have been that the guy became available and felt like the change would benefit him

 

i know of another player who had a long time vet on his bag the first year he made it to the PGA. He played ok but opted to use a family member the 2nd year and he just had a great finish at Kiawah. 
 

it’s all situational based on the needs/wants of the player. But, there is a small group of players who are using family members so the value of a regular tour loop is still high

 

So you have me thinking about Westwood.  He has said on a broadcasts that he doesn't really get much from a caddie, in part due to the fact he has played most courses many times, and he has always done his own yardages.  So he might as well keep the cash in the family.

 

I get the sense that, course knowledge aside, the young guys coming up have a much greater need for caddie involvement.  These guys grew up using range finders, to name just one thing.  

 

 

 

[Frankensteins Monster]

On 5/25/2021 at 7:56 AM, tatertot said:

Most clueless post ever ... have you ever played, watched or been around tournament golf?

 

"Day laborer", "greasy looking dude tagging along" ... you have serious issues, may want to look into getting a life.

I can sum up your post in one sentence, "I feel attacked."

[Frankensteins Monster]

On 5/24/2021 at 9:01 PM, Creedo77 said:

I’ve caddied for 3 years on the KFT and the big thing about the job is keeping my guys mind off of golf. From the second we get to the ball to the second it landed, on most occasions we are out of golf mode and talking about the 100 other things that are going on outside of the tournament 

THIS is something that, I feel, people don't get with caddies. Sure, they can get yardages and calculate wind, etc., absolutely nothing unique about that. It can be taught and anybody can do it regardless of their knowledge of golf, age, etc. It's the downtimes between shots where caddies really show their worth. You can't focus on golf for four hours plus. You need to have ways to get mental breaks from the round. You need someone to take your attention away so you can have little recharges through out the round.

[Creedo77]

5 minutes ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

THIS is something that, I feel, people don't get with caddies. Sure, they can get yardages and calculate wind, etc., absolutely nothing unique about that. It can be taught and anybody can do it regardless of their knowledge of golf, age, etc. It's the downtimes between shots where caddies really show their worth. You can't focus on golf for four hours plus. You need to have ways to get mental breaks from the round. You need someone to take your attention away so you can have little recharges through out the round.

It’s a weird combo though because some guys can’t stand caddies who talk too much. Especially if it’s about past players they work for. I don’t get why a guy would want to talk about past players with their current boss but I know a couple who do it a lot 

[Creedo77]

17 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

So you have me thinking about Westwood.  He has said on a broadcasts that he doesn't really get much from a caddie, in part due to the fact he has played most courses many times, and he has always done his own yardages.  So he might as well keep the cash in the family.

 

I get the sense that, course knowledge aside, the young guys coming up have a much greater need for caddie involvement.  These guys grew up using range finders, to name just one thing.  

 

 

 

You’re talking about a guy who has been there and done just about everything in the game. He’s a 1%er for this topic 

[Naptime]

If their wife/GF/partner/husband/BF full time caddies for them, that will change the relationship for better or worse.  On one hand, the player has few opportunities to fool around with some tour groupie and blow up the marriage in the tabloids, and they have a presumably disease free bedmate every night. On the other hand, spending all day every day with your wife/GF/partner/husband/BF can be a real drag and sometimes you need some time apart to appreciate each other.  Having a worker/boss relationship imposes a hierarchy that can create friction and resentment in an otherwise equal relationship.  

 

Age probably matters too.  Relationships and expectations mellow with age.  Young kids grow up and leave the nest.  Lee is not a young 20 yr old.  

 

 

[Frankensteins Monster]

15 minutes ago, Creedo77 said:

It’s a weird combo though because some guys can’t stand caddies who talk too much. Especially if it’s about past players they work for. I don’t get why a guy would want to talk about past players with their current boss but I know a couple who do it a lot 

Sounds like a jaded ex-gf or ex-bf. 😄

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

On 5/25/2021 at 10:01 AM, Creedo77 said:

I’ve caddied for 3 years on the KFT and the big thing about the job is keeping my guys mind off of golf. From the second we get to the ball to the second it landed, on most occasions we are out of golf mode and talking about the 100 other things that are going on outside of the tournament 

I'm not sure I've understood this correctly. When you get to the ball, isn't that when you go into "golf mode" to figure out the next shot? 

 

 

12 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

but they dont know your game, when the player asked are you good with me hitting a 6 here. what's the answer? i quess so....tour caddies walk the course pre tournament 

 

I imagine that depends a lot on the player, but as the person hitting the shot, if the caddy can give me the distance to the hole (or to the fairway bunkers or whatever), an accurate description of the effects of the wind and slope, plus advice on what not to do, then I don't need specific advice on the club number. As a player the guy hitting the shot, I take the information, think of the sort of shot I want to hit, and pick the club I think can best do that.

 

I find this rather interesting. I'd love to hear from posters like @Creedo77 and others with an elite level of experience--either as caddy or player--regarding the degree of information either they demanded from the caddy or, as caddy, were expected to give to the player. Although Creedo77 did just say that someone like Westwood who does it all himself is an outlier.

 

Incidentally, in the case of Tim Mickelson, he's also coached golf at the high collegiate level, so he's not "just family".

[Ferguson]

On 5/24/2021 at 7:37 PM, JohnnyCashForever said:

The list is pretty impressive.  Mickelson, DJ, Patrick Reed, Rory, Cink, Westwood, Stricker, et. al. all use friends or family as their primary caddie.  Obviously, these players value the close relationship with their chosen caddie, but are they leaving something on the table by not going with a "professional" caddie?  Or is the value of a top-notch professional caddie (eg, Joe LaCava, Steve Williams, Bones, Fluff, Fanny, or Jimmy Johnson) over-rated after a tour pro reaches a certain level?  Put another way, how many more majors would DJ have if he had someone like Bones Mackay on the bag for the last 10 years?  It might still be two, but I wonder.        

 

 

Professional Tour Caddies Today Are the Best They've Ever Been. 

 

Data to support this claim?  Quantify or qualify "best", please.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mbarnocki]

1 hour ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

I can sum up your post in one sentence, "I feel attacked."

Yeah heaven forbid he sees another human being as a person and values their input. The poster he was quoting was trying to dehumanize and slander caddies. They are people trying to make a living, have some decency not to reduce them to just a tool that can measure some yardage and gauge the wind.

[Creedo77]

48 minutes ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

I'm not sure I've understood this correctly. When you get to the ball, isn't that when you go into "golf mode" to figure out the next shot? 

 

 

 

I imagine that depends a lot on the player, but as the person hitting the shot, if the caddy can give me the distance to the hole (or to the fairway bunkers or whatever), an accurate description of the effects of the wind and slope, plus advice on what not to do, then I don't need specific advice on the club number. As a player the guy hitting the shot, I take the information, think of the sort of shot I want to hit, and pick the club I think can best do that.

 

I find this rather interesting. I'd love to hear from posters like @Creedo77 and others with an elite level of experience--either as caddy or player--regarding the degree of information either they demanded from the caddy or, as caddy, were expected to give to the player. Although Creedo77 did just say that someone like Westwood who does it all himself is an outlier.

 

Incidentally, in the case of Tim Mickelson, he's also coached golf at the high collegiate level, so he's not "just family".

Yeah sorry I got my words mixed up from the part you quoted me on. 

[MUNIGRIT]

Not sure how Tim Mickelson isn't considered a good caddie or only got the job because he is kin.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

3 minutes ago, Creedo77 said:

Yeah sorry I got my words mixed up from the part you quoted me on. 

Gotcha. So it's about keeping them off golf when going between shots.

 

Do you socialise much with your guy off the course during tournaments?

[naval2006]

The examples by the OP are older player who have already had great careers and they may need to take it differently, especially when you've been on the road for so long.  Family or friend caddie is a good option, especially for these players who already know the courses and they do know the last word is always the player's when it come to decissions on the course.  

[Bad9]

On 5/24/2021 at 11:34 PM, Creedo77 said:

But there’s different levels of expectation. IMO that these friends/family have. Westys wife ain’t walking the course with her yardage book on Monday (bc she’s not expected to, as opposed to someone like Harry Diamond).

And you know this because...?

[Creedo77]

21 minutes ago, Bad9 said:

And you know this because...?

It’s be amazed if Westy is asking his wife to go check sprinkler heads on a Monday. Like I mentioned earlier he knows all the courses they’re on so he can easily check for some odds ones that may be marked in the fairways while he’s playing

[Creedo77]

44 minutes ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

Gotcha. So it's about keeping them off golf when going between shots.

 

Do you socialise much with your guy off the course during tournaments?

Yeah I can’t have my guy thinking about golf for 5 hours. 
 

we normally do our own thing outside of golf. We spend so much time with each that some time off is always nice 

[Ferguson]

26 minutes ago, Bad9 said:

And you know this because...?

 

 "inner circle guy" 

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

10 minutes ago, Creedo77 said:

Yeah I can’t have my guy thinking about golf for 5 hours. 
 

we normally do our own thing outside of golf. We spend so much time with each that some time off is always nice 

 

I think the main thing that surprises me about your answer is that you're getting round in 5 hours on a pro tour....

 

/6 hour round today😱...and no, we're not pros.

[Frankensteins Monster]

1 hour ago, mbarnocki said:

Yeah heaven forbid he sees another human being as a person and values their input. The poster he was quoting was trying to dehumanize and slander caddies. They are people trying to make a living, have some decency not to reduce them to just a tool that can measure some yardage and gauge the wind.

I can sum up your post in one word, "Triggered." Not sure why though. 🤷‍♂️

[Creedo77]

6 minutes ago, No_Catchy_Nickname said:

 

I think the main thing that surprises me about your answer is that you're getting round in 5 hours on a pro tour....

 

/6 hour round today😱...and no, we're not pros.

Lol I mean we push close to 6 but all depends on conditions 

[mbarnocki]

19 minutes ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

I can sum up your post in one word, "Triggered." Not sure why though. 🤷‍♂️

 

Because you lack empathy? Because you are trying to troll? Be better man.

[tacklingdummy]

I think it is more about matching personalities. The tour players know how to play golf and get the information, but if there is any friction in personalities, it may not translate into their best golf. They get people who will positively affect their games, not negatively affect things.