Driver data, fitter says work on my swing, what say you?

[North Butte]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

Believe it or not but there are plenty of people out there that don't want to feel any loading and do better with a shaft that's stiffer than what would be normal for their swing speed and transition.   Don't know if the OP is one of those but he hasn't given any evidence to support that the issue really is or is not the shaft stiffness.  But the fact that two different fitters he's seen has put him in an x-stiff shaft makes it unlikely.

For me irons and drivers are different in that regard.

 

With irons the stiffness really only matters in terms of how it feels at impact. More stiffness makes a harsher impact.

 

But with a driver I simply must feel that shaft load (or flex or give or whatever term you like) when I get to the top and start down. If not I will yank the club even more abruptly as usual to try and make it flex. Even if I know it's a stiff shaft and tell myself to just ignore the feel at the top it doesn't work.

 

Whatever release I have is so early as to be non-existent. No lag in my downswing whatsoever. So it isn't that I need a certain stiffness to optimized the shaft flex dynamics. It's all about that feel cue that lets me know when my transition is happening.

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, North Butte said:

For me irons and drivers are different in that regard.

 

Good point to raise.  That's really not uncommon and why it can be difficult (or misleading) to try to match iron profiles and wood profiles when looking for a good fit.

[Rbsiedsc]

3 hours ago, bvanlieu said:

 

Not sure if it was asked: do you have say a 42 or 43" 5 wood? How is your strike with that and powder? 

I actually have no woods. Ditched my three wood due to inconsistency and went 17* super hybrid and have had much success. 

[mgoblue83]

Definitely need to improve your swing BUT I believe a driver change and teeing the ball lower would help you significantly.

 

New driver:

Shorter shaft (44in)

Lighter shaft (60g)

Softer shaft (stiff)

More loft (10.5)

 

Use a setup similar to this with a lower tee and it's going to make a massive difference. 

[MattC555]

You need to work on your swing.  Equipment will not solve your consistency issues. 

[Rbsiedsc]

11 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

Definitely need to improve your swing BUT I believe a driver change and teeing the ball lower would help you significantly.

 

New driver:

Shorter shaft (44in)

Lighter shaft (60g)

Softer shaft (stiff)

More loft (10.5)

 

Use a setup similar to this with a lower tee and it's going to make a massive difference. 

Thanks. I will say, having the pro 2.0 TS and the Orange pro, the pro feels looser, I think due to the weight. My transition is very aggressive according to the fitter so I think a heavier shaft will help rhythm. I have some drills to work on to see how it holds. I’d like to thank everyone for the advice. 

[third-times-a-charm]

IMO you and the fitter are both wrong, and both right at the same time.

 

I personally hate when fitters try to play teacher. It's like ok man thanks for the swing tips, but we're not solving anything in anyones golf game during this 1 hour driver/hybrid/iron fitting and even if you DID fix something in someones swing for this session, they will forget it all and you have now fit them for something they'll never swing the same again.

 

When you go for a fitting, you go to get fit for how you are currently swinging a given club. Its the fitters job to match your current swing.

 

If your swing changes within 1 week, go get fit again if you have the means to do so. If it changes in a month or a year, do the same, etc.

 

So - do you need swing work? Of course you do. Everyone does. Everyones swing is always evolving, even pros as they work with different teachers and try new things.

 

A 20HCP can get fit just like a 2HCP can, but how long the fit is good for is the question. The fitter can fit a 20HCP for a negative AOA and outside-in-path but you'll be back for another fitting after you learn to swing better, thats the game.

 

Again, IMO, if you want a 'new driver' go out and get what was recommended - but never stop trying to attain a better swing.

[games]

20 hours ago, Rbsiedsc said:

I am currently in an EF SZ ((8 head lofted down 1*) with a Tensei Orange pro 6S tipped 1" playing at 44.5". This was part of an experiment for me to gain consistency from the tee as i was all over the place with my 45.5" setup. After some tweaks the fitter suggested with my swing, ball placement and tee height, these were my numbers and they said that my setup is just fine for my game. My transition was deemed very aggressive by the fitter.

 

The Tensei Orange is a "high balance point" or counterbalance shaft.  It is usually not the first choice for an aggressive transition.

 

That said, my guess is your fitter is giving you honest advice based on something he sees that we can't see without video.

[Rbsiedsc]

4 minutes ago, games said:

 

The Tensei Orange is a "high balance point" or counterbalance shaft.  It is usually not the first choice for an aggressive transition.

 

That said, my guess is your fitter is giving you honest advice based on something he sees that we can't see without video.

So would you recommend a non CB shaft then? 70g weight class with stiff Low/low profile?

[games]

3 hours ago, Rbsiedsc said:

So would you recommend a non CB shaft then? 70g weight class with stiff Low/low profile?

 

Sorry, I probably came off as more an expert than I really am.  But, I've swung a lot of CB shafts lately, and the Orange Tensei feels a bit "loose" to me as a low 90s swinger with a mild to moderate transition.

In comparison, I'm currently swinging a HZRDUS Yellow 6.0 which is also CB, but far stiffer through the shaft.

 

I just didn't want you to discount what your fitter is telling you.  BUT, I do wonder if at low 100s speed and carry not much further than me, some of your problems with consistent impact aren't somewhat related to the profile of the current shaft.  You might want to post a swing video in the instruction forum so we can see what your fitter sees?

 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by games

[Exactice808]

10 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Sorry but this one is 100% incorrect.   Amount of loading and unloading of the shaft has nothing (objectively) to do with the efficiency of the swing or impact.  The concept that the shaft loading can add to the club head speed or ball speed has been debunked for quite a while now.   The fact is that there is no ideal amount of loading outside of the subjective judgement of the player of how much the shaft loads compared to how much they expect it to load.   Matching that expectation is what will typically end up giving the most efficient swing regardless of what that expectation might be.

 

So the only way the stiffness of the shaft can be a part of the problem for the op is if the loading feel is not matching his particular expectations and that mismatch is causing him to change his swing to force the shaft to load more than it is.  And if that extra force or effort adds excessive tension or muscle use then the swing can become less efficient.  And less efficient doesn't even necessarily mean less club head speed.  More typically that type of response to the feel being off effects face control and release timing and shot shape - although all types of different effects are possible.

 

Believe it or not but there are plenty of people out there that don't want to feel any loading and do better with a shaft that's stiffer than what would be normal for their swing speed and transition.   Don't know if the OP is one of those but he hasn't given any evidence to support that the issue really is or is not the shaft stiffness.  But the fact that two different fitters he's seen has put him in an x-stiff shaft makes it unlikely.

Edit*  My apologies, as my post in statement is incorrect!  In context of explanation and your post clarifies generically what I was speaking of, or FAILED to imply 😃

 

I was implying some loosely generic terms to have the OP open his mind to try something different. Alas I made a mess of it didnt I.

 

Your exact post clarifies what I was trying to imply in my head. (Yet failed to do so LOL)

 

The OP seems fixed on X stiff, Tour stiff or tipping shafts to increase it stiffness.  To me it seems like he is implying that his swing or his need for a harsh swing validates the "Stiffness" of the shaft.  Rather than swinging his Normal swing and letting the shaft do the work. (Secondly, bringing him down a flex, but maybe increasing the shaft weight)

 

Generically speaking (my mistake/assumption)  100ish swing swing speed falls within the generic "Stiff" swing speed category.  105-110 is pushing the X territory (generically)

 

Looking at his Data, I have a weird feeling that, he is trying to "over swing" (I, being VERY guilty in my past) to Match the setup.  Rather than getting something where he swing with control ti increase his efficiency.  I think we all agree, his strike pattern and efficiency is WAY off.

 

I think we can all agree,  105mph Swing speed but 1.4 smash  vs 99mph swing speed and 1.49 smash,  Most would take the 99mph as the ball flight may be more predictable?

 

 

In any case, thank you for the clarification!

 

 

 

 

[Exactice808]

8 hours ago, North Butte said:

For me irons and drivers are different in that regard.

 

With irons the stiffness really only matters in terms of how it feels at impact. More stiffness makes a harsher impact.

 

But with a driver I simply must feel that shaft load (or flex or give or whatever term you like) when I get to the top and start down. If not I will yank the club even more abruptly as usual to try and make it flex. Even if I know it's a stiff shaft and tell myself to just ignore the feel at the top it doesn't work.

 

Whatever release I have is so early as to be non-existent. No lag in my downswing whatsoever. So it isn't that I need a certain stiffness to optimized the shaft flex dynamics. It's all about that feel cue that lets me know when my transition is happening.

 

This is what I was thinking in my head, looking at the OP's data.  While again its different golfer to golfer.  Especially the OP's vertical strike pattern, I have this weird feeling the OP is "Yanking" it aggressively. This making he fitter and himself think he needs a "X stiff' shaft.  Facts to me his swing and setup is not giving him even decent 1.45 efficiency.     

 

His statement of the Fuji Pro 2.0 being loose makes me feel that his swing is both violent but uncontrolled.  THIS IS ALL without seeing a video LOL.  So I am 100% armchair quarterbacking with maximum assumptions LOL.

 

Slow OP down, 70+gram shaft, a little softer flex so its in his head he doesnt have to "load" (sorry @Stuart_G LOL) and I think OP might be able to really find that efficiency?

 

 

(Wow talk about throwing darts in the dark LOL) 

 

 

 

[MelloYello]

On 5/25/2021 at 1:10 PM, Rbsiedsc said:

I had a driver fitting 2 weeks ago since that has been a struggle with my game. I am currently in an EF SZ ((8 head lofted down 1*) with a Tensei Orange pro 6S tipped 1" playing at 44.5". This was part of an experiment for me to gain consistency from the tee as i was all over the place with my 45.5" setup. After some tweaks the fitter suggested with my swing, ball placement and tee height, these were my numbers and they said that my setup is just fine for my game. My transition was deemed very aggressive by the fitter. What I worry about is that I am not getting the distance I am capable of and am wondering what others would do in this situation. Would others go for a second opinion? Would anyone recommend a different head shaft combo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Look at swings #38 and #39 where you achieved respectable smash factors of 1.41 and 1.45. 

 

Your launch is way too high and your spin is way too low. I can't imagine how that 8-deg driver head is going to work. That's nuts. Even when you hit it somewhat solid, the spin is going to be way too low. 

 

The rest of those smash factors down in the 1.2 and 1.3 range indicate bad contact. You can't "fit" that. I agree with the fitter that you need to improve your swing. You'd be better suited to a more normal driver while you do that. 

 

To me, this is a good example of getting the wrong club out of someone's hands so they don't develop bad habits. The fitter probably shouldn't have let you go home with that club, even if you already owned it. 😉

[Stuart_G]

50 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

Edit*  My apologies, as my post in statement is incorrect!  In context of explanation and your post clarifies generically what I was speaking of, or FAILED to imply 😃

 

I was implying some loosely generic terms to have the OP open his mind to try something different. Alas I made a mess of it didnt I.

 

Your exact post clarifies what I was trying to imply in my head. (Yet failed to do so LOL)

 

The OP seems fixed on X stiff, Tour stiff or tipping shafts to increase it stiffness.  To me it seems like he is implying that his swing or his need for a harsh swing validates the "Stiffness" of the shaft.  Rather than swinging his Normal swing and letting the shaft do the work. (Secondly, bringing him down a flex, but maybe increasing the shaft weight)

 

I didn't get the impression that he was fixated on it, just that that's what he ended up with from the fittings.

 

But that is certainly a possibility, I just don't see any evidence to support it in this case - although that's far from conclusive.  I'd generally give the benefit of the doubt to the fitter - especially one who recommended he sticks with what he's got - unless something really stands out.   Also, those that do try to drive the shaft more than they should to get the loading tend to be aware of it - so it's more likely that if it was the case the op would have mentioned it considering all the talk about that possibility.   Although there are always exceptions so again, we can't be sure just reading his posts.

 

 

50 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

Generically speaking (my mistake/assumption)  100ish swing swing speed falls within the generic "Stiff" swing speed category.  105-110 is pushing the X territory (generically)

 

Looking at his Data, I have a weird feeling that, he is trying to "over swing" (I, being VERY guilty in my past) to Match the setup.  Rather than getting something where he swing with control ti increase his efficiency.  I think we all agree, his strike pattern and efficiency is WAY off.

 

I think we can all agree,  105mph Swing speed but 1.4 smash  vs 99mph swing speed and 1.49 smash,  Most would take the 99mph as the ball flight may be more predictable?

 

It is very easy to associate are own history and behavior with others but unfortunately it's not very reliable.  I used to do that a lot as well.

 

Yes, no doubt about the problem.  The big unknown is the root cause and best fix 😉

 

I'm a big fan of slowing down when learning to change the swing - but that's for a purposeful change.  But scaling down the swing is not always the best way to learn control.   I'd lean more toward shortening the swing while maintaining the full acceleration but then I'm not a pro nor have I seen the OP's swing.

 

50 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

 

In any case, thank you for the clarification!

 

No problem.

[Rbsiedsc]

2 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

His statement of the Fuji Pro 2.0 being loose makes me feel that his swing is both violent but uncontrolled

Actually meant that in context of the pro orange. the fuji pro 2.0 is stout as hell to me

[Rbsiedsc]

Here were my last rounds with both. Fuji pro 2.0 TS 7x

Tensei pro orange 6s tipped 1”

[games]

What is your impact pattern like with the Fuji?  Numbers suggest that should be your gamer, IMO.

[games]

If you have an equipment issue, I would ditch the Orange and stick with the Fuji.  Which I think is also CB but better for your game as the stiffer profile looks to provide more consistency for you than the Orange.

 

Again, interested to see the face impact pattern with the Fuji.  I bet it’s tighter!

[Rbsiedsc]

Thanks all. Fortunately I have an accomplice sending me some setups to try in hopes we can find something more suitable and make the game more enjoyable while I work on improving 

[Rbsiedsc]

So after spending June testing new heads and lesser stiff shafts I am back to my old setup (although today’s nine was a travesty from the tee). For the most part averaging 3-4 balls over 260 and in the fairway or just in the rough. 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Rbsiedsc

[Rbsiedsc]

On 5/27/2021 at 3:56 AM, games said:

If you have an equipment issue, I would ditch the Orange and stick with the Fuji.  Which I think is also CB but better for your game as the stiffer profile looks to provide more consistency for you than the Orange.

 

Again, interested to see the face impact pattern with the Fuji.  I bet it’s tighter!

It might be. I haven’t checked the Fuji. The orange is heel heavy. Can’t really get it out on the toe. If I get to the range this week I’ll swap them out. Here are my last few rounds with the Tensei. 

[MountainKing]

You're fitter is spot on, listen to him.  You're all over the place.  With your swing speed you should be able to carry the ball consistently 255-260.  You're not fixing anything with equipment, and if somebody says they can fix you with equipment, they're just taking your money.  Put the equipment money into lessons, get some consistency and then go for another fitting. 

[Ri_Redneck]

On 5/26/2021 at 5:36 PM, Rbsiedsc said:

Actually meant that in context of the pro orange. the fuji pro 2.0 is stout as hell to me

In comparison, the Pro TS 2.0 7X is both firmer and lower torque than the CK Pro orange 6S. This is what makes it "feel" a lot stouter. I am 100% with Stuart on the path you should take. The impact pattern you posted screams "too light" for the weight. You mentioned that the heavier Fuji shaft "felt" great, but was too stout. I have played for years at about the same SS as you and have always found my sweetspot with shafts to be in the 75G / 2.8° torque / 265 b u t t freq area. The weight helps smooth out my tempo, the low torque gives me the feeling of control and the S range flex allows me to feel the clubhead through the swing. I would try some slightly heavier S range shafts, with torque around 3* to see what that does to your impact pattern.

 

BT

[Rbsiedsc]

24 minutes ago, Ri_Redneck said:

In comparison, the Pro TS 2.0 7X is both firmer and lower torque than the CK Pro orange 6S. This is what makes it "feel" a lot stouter. I am 100% with Stuart on the path you should take. The impact pattern you posted screams "too light" for the weight. You mentioned that the heavier Fuji shaft "felt" great, but was too stout. I have played for years at about the same SS as you and have always found my sweetspot with shafts to be in the 75G / 2.8° torque / 265 b u t t freq area. The weight helps smooth out my tempo, the low torque gives me the feeling of control and the S range flex allows me to feel the clubhead through the swing. I would try some slightly heavier S range shafts, with torque around 3* to see what that does to your impact pattern.

 

BT

would you go a 70s in the Fuji 2.0 TS again or try a cheaper 70g S offering like the MMT to see if things improve?

 

I’ll give the Fuji another run my next few rounds and will get impact images this week. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Rbsiedsc

[Ri_Redneck]

Hard to say, torque stays the same, but flex is a bit softer. I think the 7s would be a good start. The CK Pro orange 7s has similar torque and profile to the TS Pro 2.0, but is also counterbalanced, which means the SW (head feel) would be considerably lighter than the TS Pro, even in the same weight. So, after hitting the TS Pro 2.0 7S, if you think you want a little less head-heavy feel, then try the CK Pro Orange 7S.

 

Personally, I like a head heavy feel and have tried CB shafts to see if I would like that feel better. I ended up reweighting all of the clubheads with CB shafts to get back to the same feel though.

 

BT

[Multipass613]

When a driver salesman suggests you work on your swing rather than buy a new stick, you buy that man a beer and thank him 😀

[MountainKing]

23 hours ago, Multipass613 said:

When a driver salesman suggests you work on your swing rather than buy a new stick, you buy that man a beer and thank him 😀

 

I'm trying to understand the mindset of still trying to fix a huge swing problem with a club.  This fitter is a pretty rare breed, most guys would probably figure out how to take the OP's money and run. This is like going to buy a new car and the car sales guy telling you that you just need new tires and an oil change. 

[Nevek]

10 minutes ago, MountainKing said:

 

I'm trying to understand the mindset of still trying to fix a huge swing problem with a club.  This fitter is a pretty rare breed, most guys would probably figure out how to take the OP's money and run. This is like going to buy a new car and the car sales guy telling you that you just need new tires and an oil change. 

 

Properly fitted equipment can offset swing flaws to a certain degree. E.g., bending your clubs is for the majority of player an easier solution than working on your dynamic lie

[Rbsiedsc]

Here are strike patterns. Mind you my swing is a hot mess. See my swing video thread. 

 

Fuji 2.0 TS 7x

 

Tensei pro orange 

[Ri_Redneck]

Impact looks more centered with the Fuji than the Tensei, which leads me to continue to suggest proper weighting. Was the head weight adjusted, in any way, between those two shafts? If not, the Tensei would have considerably lighter "head feel" than the Fuji. The weight of the Fuji seems to be helping your impact pattern, but it being too strong (boardy) may be causing you to feel you need to overswing. I really believe softer flex in the same weight range will help.

 

BT