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New Driver - Can I share a story?


Exactice808

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Hey Gang, can I share a story? Also get some input?

 

Quick version, 915D3 with Diamana D+ 70 stiff,  played for a while almost 3 years.  Buddy got a sim last year, gave me his M3 with a Tensei White 60 Stiff.  I knew the shaft was not a good profile for me but my driver sucks anyways.

 

Birthday came around, Went to Roger Dunns (this weekend), hit a crap ton of Used and New Clubs (Was looking for a used setup, higher launching less demanding).  Associate saw me, Gave me a Sim2 fitting, 

Best numbers 10.5 Sim2 with Rogue Silver 60 stiff.  $529. 4-6 weeks shipping....UGH...got the itch.

 

Had a gift card was able to work it out (On sale, got an additional discount and applied the gift card, $224 new driver),  did an impulse buy for a Cobra Speedzone with the Rouge Silver 60 (Got the shaft that I hit well at RD!)  shipped 2 days 😃 .  Cant wait to hit it, But nervous. 

 

 

 

Ok Longer story

 

Tensei CK white 60 stiff is what I got in the M3 head.  It launch's too low for my liking   Hit the LM 148mph ballspeed averages, 12* launch (Peak height 80ft) average between 2000-2500rpms of spin.   This gives me about 240 carry.  I really wanted to get about 100-120ft peak height.  That would be about 15* launch. The search was on for a shaft to get there.

 

First was the Tensei Blue as that is a mid lauch mid spin.  Hit it with the Sim2, Sim, M6  The launch was better but the spin would jump 2500-3000 at worst.

 

Then Grabbed whatever was stock,  Sim head with an Evenflow, that was no good spun too much. 2900rpms

 

Tried to Cobra Speed zone but it had a Hazardous. I couldnt make good contact with it (this scares me) Hitting low and on the heel. weak ballspeeds and low launch.

 

Did the Sim2 with the Rogue Silver 60 stiff.  Gave me 150 ball speed 15* LA and 2200spin pretty consistently.  250carry was a nice bump, Increased ballspeed averages a little, (better contact it seems)  Increased the LA at the window I liked and maintained the spin. 

 

He said no Rogues in the store.  I told him I dont care about company, just want to have a launch window.  We went through some other clubs,  He gave me ping G425 with a Tensei Orange.  (Mid launch low spin) this one caught me off guard the most.

 

Could NOT get over 140 ball speeds, was averaging about 138mph????  I was hitting it in the center about the same as the Sim2,  But could NOT keep up the speeds. The launch window was higher about 16-18* spin was good, Just ZERO ballspeed?

 

 

Anyone notice Ping not giving ball speeds?

 

 

Questions

 

 

1) Shaft or Head for Launch? which one more critical for actual launch? CT units maxed, so good hit is same for ballspeed?  Loft for loft, 10.5 vs 10.5...does it matter? 9.0 vs 9.0 etc?

2) Sim2 vs SpeedZone,  Same shaft Rogue Silver, could I hope that the shaft plays the bigger part. Or did I mess up assuming the shaft would play similar, in 2 different heads?

3) Looking at the specs,  Tensei white, Just not the right fit for me,  Tensei Blue, too much spin.  Tensei orange, Low spin, higher launch, But tested in bad head?

4) Specs wise the Rogue 60 S 110MSi looks good on paper for me and live tested with the Sim2 it was great.  Could hope that since I got the shaft It would work in the speed zone, if not pull it and stick in in the M3 head as well?

 

Why do I feel weird about the Speedzone, I watched a bunch of Youtube videos....but there isnt much about it compared to some of the competitors???

 

 

Cobra SZ - Rogue 60s
TM 15* M2v1 - RIP Phenom 60S
TM 18* M2v1 - Rogue 60S
Sub70- 649mbs-PW-6 ,639 CBs-5-4   PX 6.0 Rifles
Vokey SM7 - 50*/8*, 56*/10* & 60*/8* S200
Scotty Newport 2 - 33"

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I love these threads.

 

Low/low, high/low all of that other crap you read from manufacturers is based off a minute amount of difference with a robot swinging the club.  Launch moves by 1/2 degree down and spin is 150 lower on average, market it as low/low.  Numbers go the other way market it that way.

 

Trying to increase launch angle with a shafts perceived or published generalities usually ends poorly.  

*We are not machines, so changing the shaft so that the robot hits it 1/2 lower and with 200 less spin may cause your delivery to change and you may hit it higher with more spin.

 

I remember when I first realized this, I was going for a fitting with Dana Upshaw in the early 2000's.  He had a guy already in and the guy was launching it a smidge low with a smidge too high spin.  The shaft was a Purple Ice, (I remember because that was the shaft I ended up with) which was marketed as a high/mid shaft.    The next shaft was a low/low marketed shaft, Dana had seen enough of the guys swing to make a guess on what would help his delivery, and viola.  The guy picked up almost two degrees of launch and 400 RPM of spin and his dispersion got better.

 

Weight and balance of a shaft will matter more than any marketed low/low or high/low or whatever a company may market a shaft as.  Unfortunately unless you are willing to go and get fit and have a good fitter trial and error may be heading your way.

 

To all of the folks that say, I can hit any shaft the same.  Fittings are over rated.  Well good for you, however having a shaft in every club throughout my bag that makes me try and swing similar all the time, vs. a shaft that makes me try and hit too much up on the ball will overall better my scores since I have a similar feel I am trying to accomplish all the way through the bag.

 

The best way to increase launch is and always will be more loft.  You can increase it with a shaft change, but that is more because of how you will deliver the club with the different shaft, not because of it's perceived "stats"

 

Pings because of their heavier headweight I have seen lots of people struggle with.  You just never know, that is why they tend to use CB shafts.

 

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  • Driver - Ping G430 Max 10k - Ventus Black 6X | Ping G430 LST 10.5 - Aldila Rogue White 130 MSI TX
  • 3 Wood - Taylormade 300 Mini 13.5 - Ventus Purple X
  • 5 Wood - Ping G430 Max - Ventus Purple X 
  • 7 Wood - Ping G430 Max - Ventus Purple X | 4 iron - Srixon ZX4 MKII - Axiom 105X
  • 5 - GW Cobra King Tour - Axiom 105X
  • SW - Cleveland RTX6 55* - Fuji Tour Spec 115X | LW - Vokey SM9T 60* - Fuji Tour Spec 115X
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2 minutes ago, driveandputtmachine said:

I love these threads.

 

Low/low, high/low all of that other crap you read from manufacturers is based off a minute amount of difference with a robot swinging the club.  Launch moves by 1/2 degree down and spin is 150 lower on average, market it as low/low.  Numbers go the other way market it that way.

 

Trying to increase launch angle with a shafts perceived or published generalities usually ends poorly.  

*We are not machines, so changing the shaft so that the robot hits it 1/2 lower and with 200 less spin may cause your delivery to change and you may hit it higher with more spin.

 

I remember when I first realized this, I was going for a fitting with Dana Upshaw in the early 2000's.  He had a guy already in and the guy was launching it a smidge low with a smidge too high spin.  The shaft was a Purple Ice, (I remember because that was the shaft I ended up with) which was marketed as a high/mid shaft.    The next shaft was a low/low marketed shaft, Dana had seen enough of the guys swing to make a guess on what would help his delivery, and viola.  The guy picked up almost two degrees of launch and 400 RPM of spin and his dispersion got better.

 

Weight and balance of a shaft will matter more than any marketed low/low or high/low or whatever a company may market a shaft as.  Unfortunately unless you are willing to go and get fit and have a good fitter trial and error may be heading your way.

 

To all of the folks that say, I can hit any shaft the same.  Fittings are over rated.  Well good for you, however having a shaft in every club throughout my bag that makes me try and swing similar all the time, vs. a shaft that makes me try and hit too much up on the ball will overall better my scores since I have a similar feel I am trying to accomplish all the way through the bag.

 

The best way to increase launch is and always will be more loft.  You can increase it with a shaft change, but that is more because of how you will deliver the club with the different shaft, not because of it's perceived "stats"

 

Pings because of their heavier headweight I have seen lots of people struggle with.  You just never know, that is why they tend to use CB shafts.

 

Interesting,  I noticed the Tensei Orange in the Ping as a CB shaft, But I swear I was making good contact, But it just would NOT at the slightest get the ball speeds.

 

 

OK SO now you read my garbage the direct questions.

 

Sim2 with the Rogue gave me REALLY good numbers.  

I could NOT find a Rogue to safe my life,  Dumb luck stumbled on the Speedzone on sale with the Rogue, brand new $224 shipped to my door in 2 days, It was hard to walk away.

 

Is it then unrealistic to hope for similar performance and just gotta hit it and pray then?

 

 

Cobra SZ - Rogue 60s
TM 15* M2v1 - RIP Phenom 60S
TM 18* M2v1 - Rogue 60S
Sub70- 649mbs-PW-6 ,639 CBs-5-4   PX 6.0 Rifles
Vokey SM7 - 50*/8*, 56*/10* & 60*/8* S200
Scotty Newport 2 - 33"

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5 hours ago, adamnbomb said:

Find a shaft you like then match the head to it. I prefer low/low shafts with low torque, big Whiteboard fan. Tried a Diamana DF that had 0.7* more torque than a Whiteboard and was hitting everything dead left with way too much spin

This is what scares me now.  So Have a BUNCH of shafts and my swing has evolved over the years.  

 

Kuro Silver 60X

Black Tie 7M3 Stiff

Diamana D+ 70 stiff (This one worked well for me for a while) 

 

When I got the M3 though I  was getting better ball speeds over the 915D3.  But the overall launch was lower with the Tensei white (it was never fit, just got it from a buddy).

 

hence the look around now for a new shaft, Tried a bunch.  The Rogue on the SIM2 of all the combos of heads and shafts I tried.  But I fear that just taking the Rogue Silver and putting it into any head..... (Speedzone) is an absolute shot in the dark. And I hope I didnt waste $224 instead of sucking it up and paying the $550 for the SIM2 combo.

 

 

 

 

Cobra SZ - Rogue 60s
TM 15* M2v1 - RIP Phenom 60S
TM 18* M2v1 - Rogue 60S
Sub70- 649mbs-PW-6 ,639 CBs-5-4   PX 6.0 Rifles
Vokey SM7 - 50*/8*, 56*/10* & 60*/8* S200
Scotty Newport 2 - 33"

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The question is will you be using the driver to play actual golf or launch monitor golf? Many clubs can seem great hitting off of mats into a screen but will it actually perform on the course? I went from a Speedzone which felt and looked great on the monitor..on the course was a dud…traded back in for a TS2 with the same Tensei blue shaft and magic…hit it great and forgiving and even longer…I’m not discounting launch monitor data but I think people obsess about it too much and are often disappointed at the real world results.!

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11 hours ago, driveandputtmachine said:

Pings because of their heavier headweight I have seen lots of people struggle with.  You just never know, that is why they tend to use CB shafts.

 

 

It would have been nice to see what happened with the club head speed and not just the ball speed.   But assuming the face impact location being "good" was validated with impact tape or foot powder spray, then the 10 mph drop in ball speed is much more than can really be accounted for by a little extra head weight the ping's have.   Something else was likely going on.   If it was a dedicated demo/fitting head, there may have been something wrong with it such as a cracked or caved face.

 

 

12 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

1) Shaft or Head for Launch? which one more critical for actual launch? CT units maxed, so good hit is same for ballspeed?  Loft for loft, 10.5 vs 10.5...does it matter? 9.0 vs 9.0 etc?

 

Shaft first for feel and consistency.   Head second for launch/spin and also (for some) feel and/or sound and/or looks.   If you still can't get the numbers you want, then the swing is the problem, not the equipment.

 

 

 

Quote

 

2) Sim2 vs SpeedZone,  Same shaft Rogue Silver, could I hope that the shaft plays the bigger part. Or did I mess up assuming the shaft would play similar, in 2 different heads?

 

Even assuming the other specs are the same (head weight, playing length, grip) which isn't always the case,  head can make a small difference in the feel of the shaft but it shouldn't be very big and can be compensated for.   So if a shaft works well in one head then it likely will work well in any head.   But that's using the definition of "the shaft plays similar" that is based on the concept of that performance being how the shaft feels.  How it loads and unloads during the swing and how it influences the swing,  NOT in the context of trying to chase numbers with the shaft.

 

Of course that also doesn't take into consideration that TM tips the aftermarket shafts 1" - so that by itself means the shaft isn't necessarily going to be the same if you order it from TM vs another company.

 

 

Quote

3) Looking at the specs,  Tensei white, Just not the right fit for me,  Tensei Blue, too much spin.  Tensei orange, Low spin, higher launch, But tested in bad head?

 

How good a fit should be based on how it feels and performs, not on the specs.   Sure, you can rule out some shafts based on the weight if you already know what shaft weight is a good fit - but that's about it.  There is no standard for what the rest of the specs actually mean in terms of performance and how well they might fit.

 

 

 

Edited by Stuart_G
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10 hours ago, jdowning111 said:

The question is will you be using the driver to play actual golf or launch monitor golf? Many clubs can seem great hitting off of mats into a screen but will it actually perform on the course? I went from a Speedzone which felt and looked great on the monitor..on the course was a dud…traded back in for a TS2 with the same Tensei blue shaft and magic…hit it great and forgiving and even longer…I’m not discounting launch monitor data but I think people obsess about it too much and are often disappointed at the real world results.!

 

Oh this is my live driver, this will hopefully replace the M3 on the course.

 

In regards to "LM" data, to be fair I know my own personal numbers pretty well.  But Hard to visually know the LA and Peak heights just from seeing it.  

 

The swing speed is solid 100-105 and with any good strike we are looking at the 147-152 ball speed (with regularity).  The biggest again was the move from the 915 to M3. Similarsh heads, but the launch was much lower with the M3 Tensei white combo.

 

LM data or not it was evident.  I cranked the M3 head from 9.5 to 10.75 with no luck Height was still lower than I like.

 

At the Store, all the other numbers were consistent, "Spin, Swing Speed and smash" so really it was the Launch angle I was trying to dial in.  FUNNY the guy kept trying to sell me on "Total distance" which I could careless about.  the call was 100ft peak height and max carry.  (yeah yeah I hit a coupe 280+ on the LM that I dont do with any regularity.  What I was looking at was the 240-250 carry.  I wanted to eclipse the 250carry with regularity, which I should be able to do with my swing speed and keeping the Spin down.

 

The Rogue Silver 60s seems to be the ticket.... It comes in tomorrow so I will let you all know LOL! 

Cobra SZ - Rogue 60s
TM 15* M2v1 - RIP Phenom 60S
TM 18* M2v1 - Rogue 60S
Sub70- 649mbs-PW-6 ,639 CBs-5-4   PX 6.0 Rifles
Vokey SM7 - 50*/8*, 56*/10* & 60*/8* S200
Scotty Newport 2 - 33"

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10 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

It would have been nice to see what happened with the club head speed and not just the ball speed.   But assuming the face impact location being "good" was validated with impact tape or foot powder spray, then the 10 mph drop in ball speed is much more than can really be accounted for by a little extra head weight the ping's have.   Something else was likely going on.   If it was a dedicated demo/fitting head, there may have been something wrong with it such as a cracked or caved face.

 

 

 

Shaft first for feel and consistency.   Head second for launch/spin and also (for some) feel and/or sound and/or looks.   If you still can't get the numbers you want, then the swing is the problem, not the equipment.

 

 

 

 

Even assuming the other specs are the same (head weight, playing length, grip) which isn't always the case,  head can make a small difference in the feel of the shaft but it shouldn't be very big and can be compensated for.   So if a shaft works well in one head then it likely will work well in any head.   But that's using the definition of "the shaft plays similar" that is based on the concept of that performance being how the shaft feels.  How it loads and unloads during the swing and how it influences the swing,  NOT in the context of trying to chase numbers with the shaft.

 

Of course that also doesn't take into consideration that TM tips the aftermarket shafts 1" - so that by itself means the shaft isn't necessarily going to be the same if you order it from TM vs another company.

 

 

 

How good a fit should be based on how it feels and performs, not on the specs.   Sure, you can rule out some shafts based on the weight if you already know what shaft weight is a good fit - but that's about it.  There is no standard for what the rest of the specs actually mean in terms of performance and how well they might fit.

 

 

 

 

Hey Stuart! As always thank you for your comments.  MY apologies, I did not notice the swing speed since I am weary of GCquad and their "quicker" than normal swing speeds.  I was paying attention to ball speeds, LA and spin.

 

The Ping was pulled from the rack so it was NOT a demo head. I dont think it had an issue.  Again I will say based on "perceived" impact, I thought I was hitting it well. Maybe the feel of the PING gave me false feel? who knows. all I know was ODDLY I could not break 140mph ball speeds. WEIRD.  I am wondering along with the PING head and the CB Tensei orange? Just not a good mix?

 

 

Thanks for making feel better.  Shaft in the SIM2 after hitting 4 shafts (2 Tensei, Hazrd & Rogue) , the Rogue was the the best by quite a margin.  All the other Tensei's shafts would be fades/strong fades (white too low, Blue too high, too much spin)  Hazrd just didnt get along at all, Low heal strikes.  moved to the Rouge and it was Straight or slight fade (normal shot) so it was really really good.  Spin was nice in the 2200 range but the LA was at 14-16* which I was looking for.

 

But not knowing I would get the deal on the Speedzone, I wish I could go back and try to hit the SZ with the rogue, but that might be poor form abusing the Stores LM and the Associates time. 

 

Anways, It was a hard deal to pass, so I am just banking I get lucky with the SZ and the Rogue.  I am going to assume its still going to be better than my M3 Tensei white combo just in general.  

 

Thanks again and I will try to update on my findings

 

 

 

 

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Cobra SZ - Rogue 60s
TM 15* M2v1 - RIP Phenom 60S
TM 18* M2v1 - Rogue 60S
Sub70- 649mbs-PW-6 ,639 CBs-5-4   PX 6.0 Rifles
Vokey SM7 - 50*/8*, 56*/10* & 60*/8* S200
Scotty Newport 2 - 33"

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May Share the Update?  Club came in Thursday,  Got to play with it Friday.

 

Its Bitter Sweet to say the least.

 

Cons -

1) I have not quite hit a sweet one yet,  But I dont personally like the feel. I will say I am spoiled with the recent TM M3, that I switched to from the 915.  I would say the SZ feels similar to the 915. A little harsh, rather than the softer feel than the TM.

 

2) The main reason for the thread,  In its current form it does not go higher unless I intentionally setup higher (hip bump/ secondary tilt)  I Tried its stock 9* Setting and then bumped to 10.5* its not launching much higher if at all..... =( Boo.

 

3) Sound is not muted like the M3 either. It is louder not as loud at the titleist but louder than the TM. Tingy.... but also my strikes were ok...not great.

 

Pros

 

1) Its a Fairway finder.   Hit the most Fairways in comparison to my prior recent rounds.

 

2) Its low spin,  It comes off pretty hot with much seemingly less spin.  I hit 3 lower on the face and it just shoots out nicely. Surprisingly getting some really good distance.

 

3) Its about the same length with less then optimal strikes, I think I may pick up some distance with better strikes in the upcoming weeks of play.

 

4)  The Visual profile is actually nice for me

 

5) I want to say the shaft profile just works for me?  It felt good as whole through the swing , (pre impact) 

 

 

 

 

Current take.  Its finding fairways and it seems to have distance increase potential.  Feel and sound is not preferred but I may just get used to it.  Will it kick the M3 out of the bag at this point since its finding fairways and the potential ABSOLUTELY. Am I satisfied, not yet.....  Ultimately what I could do eventually is pull the shaft put a TM tip on and put the M3 head on....But again there may be potential... lets see what 3 weeks of play does 😃 

 

 

 

Edited by Exactice808

Cobra SZ - Rogue 60s
TM 15* M2v1 - RIP Phenom 60S
TM 18* M2v1 - Rogue 60S
Sub70- 649mbs-PW-6 ,639 CBs-5-4   PX 6.0 Rifles
Vokey SM7 - 50*/8*, 56*/10* & 60*/8* S200
Scotty Newport 2 - 33"

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Can a different ball change the impact feel for the better?

2020 18 July mid winterNZ
Ping Rapture 2006 10.5
Nike VrS 3wood
Callaway Razr Edge5 wood

MP100=33 9876 5/mp63
54     RTX2
60     RTX2
ProPlatinum NewportTwo
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Dont hesitate to buy one!






 

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On 5/29/2021 at 2:09 PM, RogerinNewZealand said:

Can a different ball change the impact feel for the better?

To be fair I am not sure.  But I will say the inherent sound that is caused by vibrations is by design.  So I dont think the feel will change too much ball to ball.

 

I will say I took the driver out this weekend to the range. and Tested a slew of balls.  The "Feel" did not change too much. I hit a mix of shots,  Slightly low on the face, slightly heely,  In teh middle and the "Harsher" crack was still felt.  Same with Good balls, Range balls, crappy balls.  Still a little buzzy, compared to the muted and softer TM drivers.

 

 

Biggest thing I will admit, Spin was nice and low.  Launch was low,  But I was getting 150+ball speeds that I was not getting at the time of fitting.  At the fitting time I was hovering at 148mph averages.  But At the range with my ES14 I was getting some 150+mph which was nice.

 

 

 

Cobra SZ - Rogue 60s
TM 15* M2v1 - RIP Phenom 60S
TM 18* M2v1 - Rogue 60S
Sub70- 649mbs-PW-6 ,639 CBs-5-4   PX 6.0 Rifles
Vokey SM7 - 50*/8*, 56*/10* & 60*/8* S200
Scotty Newport 2 - 33"

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      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies

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