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KBS $-Taper Felt and Performed Great on Monitor, Not on Course ... what happened?


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Posted (edited)

I switched from KBS Tour to $-Taper because I wanted a slightly firmer feel. The Tour's have a somewhat "bendy" feel in the middle that I wasn't always comfortable with. In testing with demo 7 iron heads the $-Tapers seemed like the answer. Launch was just about as high, spin a bit lower, and feel was much improved.

 

On the course I'm now finding launch to be much lower, and feel is almost non-existent. The shaft doesn't seem to bend at all, and thus I don't know where the clubhead is, and I feel like I am losing some of the "snap" at impact from shaft rebound.

 

Question: could this be due to the fitting head weighing more and thus having a greater swingweight and more effect on shaft bend? The clubs I have now came in about D1. Could adding some tape to get them to D3 be the answer? 

 

Also currently use AVX. Could a higher launch, higher spin like ProV1X be the better match?

Edited by JD3

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Find a club you like the weight/feel of and measure that swingweight.  I use this calculator: http://golf.okrasa.eu/clubs/swingweight-en/sw-measurement/   Then I would start by lead tape on

What golf ball did you use when you tested the shafts? Who built the clubs for you? What was the swingweight of the clubs you were testing that worked so well?

Was the fitting off turf or a mat.    If the latter, a lot of that "snap at impact" could have been the club compressing a mat which of course is different than what happens on turf.

What golf ball did you use when you tested the shafts? Who built the clubs for you? What was the swingweight of the clubs you were testing that worked so well?

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17 minutes ago, liveagua said:

What golf ball did you use when you tested the shafts? Who built the clubs for you? What was the swingweight of the clubs you were testing that worked so well?

ball was ProV1 mostly. clubs were ordered direct from callaway. I dont know swingweight of fitting club, I assume it was heavier due to the added screw-on material on the hosel

Ping G400 10.5 Ping Tour 65s
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Ping G410 HB 19 KBS Graphite Tour Hybrid 85s+
Honma TW-X T//World 4-PW Modus 105s
Yururi Tataki 52.5, 56.5 & 60.5 KBS 610 R+
Ping Anser 2 Milled
NDMC Grips (extra wrap lower half to reduce taper)
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Check the specs as most manufacturers build specs have a large tolerance and have seen the frequency and specs way off on several occasions. $-Taper's have been money for me. No pun intended. Hope you get things dialed in.

**WITB as of 6/14/21****

Taylormade SIM 2 - 10.5* - Ventus Blue 6X tipped 1.5" playing at 45" D5 SW Hotmelt added to head

Taylormade SIM 2 MAX - 15* Ventus Blue 7X Tipped 2" playing at 43" D5 SW Bent Flat and hot melted

Taylormade SIM 2 MAX Hybrid - 19* Ventus Blue HB 9X 

Callaway 21' X-Forged UT 18* - Ventus Blue HB 9X / 2* Flat (+1* loft)

Srixon ZX-7 KBS $-Taper 130X 4i-PW

Vokey SM8 KBS 610 Wedge 125S+ 50F/54D/58D
Golf Pride Tour Velvet +4 standard + 2 wraps
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17 minutes ago, byoshio82 said:

Check the specs as most manufacturers build specs have a large tolerance and have seen the frequency and specs way off on several occasions. $-Taper's have been money for me. No pun intended. Hope you get things dialed in.

what is your SS with 7 iron?

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Honma TW-X T//World 4-PW Modus 105s
Yururi Tataki 52.5, 56.5 & 60.5 KBS 610 R+
Ping Anser 2 Milled
NDMC Grips (extra wrap lower half to reduce taper)
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Footjoy Tour Glove (optional, often times play without glove)

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If you were fit at club champion chances are swing weight was like D4/D5+ Their adapters add a bunch of weight.  I would start there. D1 is pretty light.

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40 minutes ago, North Butte said:

Was the fitting off turf or a mat. 

 

If the latter, a lot of that "snap at impact" could have been the club compressing a mat which of course is different than what happens on turf.

indoor mat

Ping G400 10.5 Ping Tour 65s
Ping G400 14.5 Ping Tour 75s  
Ping G410 HB 19 KBS Graphite Tour Hybrid 85s+
Honma TW-X T//World 4-PW Modus 105s
Yururi Tataki 52.5, 56.5 & 60.5 KBS 610 R+
Ping Anser 2 Milled
NDMC Grips (extra wrap lower half to reduce taper)
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5 minutes ago, hwwong said:

If you were fit at club champion chances are swing weight was like D4/D5+ Their adapters add a bunch of weight.  I would start there. D1 is pretty light.

thats what I'm thinking ... how do you suggest I add weight and what swingweight to target?

Ping G400 10.5 Ping Tour 65s
Ping G400 14.5 Ping Tour 75s  
Ping G410 HB 19 KBS Graphite Tour Hybrid 85s+
Honma TW-X T//World 4-PW Modus 105s
Yururi Tataki 52.5, 56.5 & 60.5 KBS 610 R+
Ping Anser 2 Milled
NDMC Grips (extra wrap lower half to reduce taper)
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Footjoy Tour Glove (optional, often times play without glove)

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, JD3 said:

thats what I'm thinking ... how do you suggest I add weight and what swingweight to target?

 

Find a club you like the weight/feel of and measure that swingweight.  I use this calculator: http://golf.okrasa.eu/clubs/swingweight-en/sw-measurement/

 

Then I would start by lead tape on the club.  I think 2g of weight is 1 swingweight point, but again calculator will tell you.

 

Keep in mind the balance point needs to be accurate by 1/8" or better for the calculator to be accurate

 

 

 

Edited by hwwong
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Callaway Rogue SZ 15 - Diamana Tensei Pro White 70 TX

Titleist TS2 18 - Diamana DF 80 TX

Mizuno Hot Metal Pro 4-PW - C-Taper 130 X

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TP Mills Dale/TP Mills Nellie

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16 hours ago, JD3 said:

what is your SS with 7 iron?

97 MPH with a 7 iron

**WITB as of 6/14/21****

Taylormade SIM 2 - 10.5* - Ventus Blue 6X tipped 1.5" playing at 45" D5 SW Hotmelt added to head

Taylormade SIM 2 MAX - 15* Ventus Blue 7X Tipped 2" playing at 43" D5 SW Bent Flat and hot melted

Taylormade SIM 2 MAX Hybrid - 19* Ventus Blue HB 9X 

Callaway 21' X-Forged UT 18* - Ventus Blue HB 9X / 2* Flat (+1* loft)

Srixon ZX-7 KBS $-Taper 130X 4i-PW

Vokey SM8 KBS 610 Wedge 125S+ 50F/54D/58D
Golf Pride Tour Velvet +4 standard + 2 wraps
TaylorMade TP Soto 33.5” with Super Stroke Pistol GTR 2.0 - 

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15 hours ago, JD3 said:

thats what I'm thinking ... how do you suggest I add weight and what swingweight to target?

First S taper I swung were plus length and they were fantastic. Second were std and I could not feel the head. They were so light. I could game the s taper, but not without a bunch of lead. SW them, then add some lead til it feels and performs good, then swingweight it again.

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@JD3 I did try $-Tapers in my wedges with no luck as they simply just didn't spin enough for me and I went back to DG S400 TI's. However until my body tells me no more 130X $-tapers in my irons they will be in whatever iron set I have.

**WITB as of 6/14/21****

Taylormade SIM 2 - 10.5* - Ventus Blue 6X tipped 1.5" playing at 45" D5 SW Hotmelt added to head

Taylormade SIM 2 MAX - 15* Ventus Blue 7X Tipped 2" playing at 43" D5 SW Bent Flat and hot melted

Taylormade SIM 2 MAX Hybrid - 19* Ventus Blue HB 9X 

Callaway 21' X-Forged UT 18* - Ventus Blue HB 9X / 2* Flat (+1* loft)

Srixon ZX-7 KBS $-Taper 130X 4i-PW

Vokey SM8 KBS 610 Wedge 125S+ 50F/54D/58D
Golf Pride Tour Velvet +4 standard + 2 wraps
TaylorMade TP Soto 33.5” with Super Stroke Pistol GTR 2.0 - 

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, hwwong said:

 

Find a club you like the weight/feel of and measure that swingweight.  I use this calculator: http://golf.okrasa.eu/clubs/swingweight-en/sw-measurement/

 

Then I would start by lead tape on the club.  I think 2g of weight is 1 swingweight point, but again calculator will tell you.

 

Keep in mind the balance point needs to be accurate by 1/8" or better for the calculator to be accurate

 

 

 

in your experience how much does SW matter to players? My handicap is 4.1. At my level does going from D1 to D2 make that much difference? My own assumption is that it would need to be 2 SW's higher for me to be able to notice it and provide the substantial improvement in performance I am looking for.

Edited by JD3

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Ping G400 14.5 Ping Tour 75s  
Ping G410 HB 19 KBS Graphite Tour Hybrid 85s+
Honma TW-X T//World 4-PW Modus 105s
Yururi Tataki 52.5, 56.5 & 60.5 KBS 610 R+
Ping Anser 2 Milled
NDMC Grips (extra wrap lower half to reduce taper)
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3 hours ago, JD3 said:

in your experience how much does SW matter to players? My handicap is 4.1. At my level does going from D1 to D2 make that much difference? My own assumption is that it would need to be 2 SW's higher for me to be able to notice it and provide the substantial improvement in performance I am looking for.

 

I would say the better you are the more it would matter.  Swingweight would affect timing, angle of attack, release, etc.  D1 to D2 may not make a difference but D5 to D1 would.  If you can, go back to your fitter and have them build the demo club up again and test the swingweight.   That will tell you how far your clubs are off.  

 

Unless you're telling me the demo club was D2 and your clubs are D1...  Then it's probably something different.  Who built your clubs?

 

Last thign I can think of is you were swinging faster in the simulator than on course.  I know I've done that - especially with driver fittings.  

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TP Mills Dale/TP Mills Nellie

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20 hours ago, hwwong said:

 

I would say the better you are the more it would matter.  Swingweight would affect timing, angle of attack, release, etc.  D1 to D2 may not make a difference but D5 to D1 would.  If you can, go back to your fitter and have them build the demo club up again and test the swingweight.   That will tell you how far your clubs are off.  

 

Unless you're telling me the demo club was D2 and your clubs are D1...  Then it's probably something different.  Who built your clubs?

 

Last thign I can think of is you were swinging faster in the simulator than on course.  I know I've done that - especially with driver fittings.  

Callaway built them. Standard is D2, I figured they would add weight to get them to D2 as needed. However they didn't. They said tolerances are +/- 1 SW, and these were closer to D1 but still w/i tolerances

Ping G400 10.5 Ping Tour 65s
Ping G400 14.5 Ping Tour 75s  
Ping G410 HB 19 KBS Graphite Tour Hybrid 85s+
Honma TW-X T//World 4-PW Modus 105s
Yururi Tataki 52.5, 56.5 & 60.5 KBS 610 R+
Ping Anser 2 Milled
NDMC Grips (extra wrap lower half to reduce taper)
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On 5/26/2021 at 11:36 AM, byoshio82 said:

97 MPH with a 7 iron

wow thats incredible, more than most people swing driver. I used to be 92 years ago, but not so young anymore, Im 85 now

Ping G400 10.5 Ping Tour 65s
Ping G400 14.5 Ping Tour 75s  
Ping G410 HB 19 KBS Graphite Tour Hybrid 85s+
Honma TW-X T//World 4-PW Modus 105s
Yururi Tataki 52.5, 56.5 & 60.5 KBS 610 R+
Ping Anser 2 Milled
NDMC Grips (extra wrap lower half to reduce taper)
Titleist ProV1x 
UA Jordan Spieth 2
Footjoy Tour Glove (optional, often times play without glove)

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Posted (edited)

I play $-tapers.  I love them. I came from nippon 105s. I tried the KBS tours and PX 6.5s. I hated the 6.5s. The KBS tours felt less stiff than the $-tapers and offered a bit more feel but not by much. However, like you OP, I found the tours did not lower my launch and spin as much as the $-tapers.  Which is what I was looking for. 
 

7i swing speed is 92 at the time of fitting. I have since dialed it back to 87

 

OP - it did take me a long time to get used to them, but I was making a big weight change.  Multiple rounds and range sessions. For a while, I did get a bad feeling like I made a mistake

Edited by jpbova

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$-Taper shafts also have a higher balance point which makes them slightly counter-balanced, just like the KBS Tours.  It’s likely Callaway didn’t account for this during the build and they are swing weighting lighter than your previous clubs.  
 

It took me a while to get used to my $-Taper shafts initially but now I prefer them.   

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Hey JD, it sounds like your issue with the $-TAPER shafts might be that they are not low-balanced enough for you to feel better connection with the club head.

I noticed the same issue when I tested both the $-TAPER LITE and the $-TAPER 130X, which is why I chose to go with the new lower balanced $-TAPER HT (heavy tip) shafts that were released by KBS in early 2020.

The shaft walls in the bottom six inches or so of the HT shafts are noticeably thicker than the regular $-TAPER version when you place them side by side.

My $-TAPER HT shafts are in the 120 stiff version, but they also come in 125g and 130g options.

I believe this HT shaft could solve your swing weight problem as well.

Give the $-TAPER HT a try.

For me, they swing like a dream.

 

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Posted (edited)

Well I've plopped enough lead tape on the heads go get them to D3 and sadly it's not getting any better. My launch and spin are still too low after a couple rounds on the course. But worse my shots simply do not turn over like they used to with every other club in the bag for years. They just start left (I'm left handed) and stay there. I have to adjust by aiming further right than I'm used to. This is far from ideal. Imo the $-tapers are deceptively very stiff, stiffer than even C-tapers but people don't realize it because $-tapers are not harsh like the C's.  I found this excellent site that makes that point:

 

"KBS fans should know that the $-Taper and FLT versions are generally stiffer than the C-Taper."

https://exactgolf.com/pages/iron-shaft-comparison

 

The quality of the shafts I can tell is quite high, so I'm hoping with some swing improvements I'm working on it will get better. But right now it's looking like 50/50 odds I will need to swap into something better suited to me, safest choice being the Tours since I used them for years, liked them, and know what I'm getting. 

 

 

 

Edited by JD3

Ping G400 10.5 Ping Tour 65s
Ping G400 14.5 Ping Tour 75s  
Ping G410 HB 19 KBS Graphite Tour Hybrid 85s+
Honma TW-X T//World 4-PW Modus 105s
Yururi Tataki 52.5, 56.5 & 60.5 KBS 610 R+
Ping Anser 2 Milled
NDMC Grips (extra wrap lower half to reduce taper)
Titleist ProV1x 
UA Jordan Spieth 2
Footjoy Tour Glove (optional, often times play without glove)

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If you're swinging 97 w a 7i and leaking, pushing shots left... You need to slow your swing. I'd bet money that you're leaving the club face open at impact. 

 

I have Modus3 130X and I had to learn that if I wanted to keep my natural tempo and speed, I needed to consciously close the face. Almost feeling like a flip (in reality, you're squaring the face).

Edited by Hack Daddy

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@JD3 I'm a lefty golfer too, but am right-handed. It sounds like your shaft problems are generally two-fold. One is that the shaft may feel too stiff or heavy for you, and/or that the shaft is not low balanced enough for you to adequately feel connected with the club head.

Torque may be another issue, but's usually seen in circumstances where the shaft is too whippy and flexible.

Your complaint that the shaft isn't bending enough for you already suggests that it is too stiff a shaft for what you need, or at least too stiff in the butt and mid-sections of the shaft.

Also, the $-TAPER shafts are designed to be lower launching by default, so the shaft is operating as would be expected in that regard, but if it is too stiff and heavy to begin with, and the balance point is off, you have no chance at accomplishing anything here except more frustration and disappointment, and no amount of lead tape would fix that.

Golf simulators and launch monitors can't be used as the sole method of shaft selection.

Testing a shaft on the range gives way more real-world feedback, but playing them on the course is where the final verdict is usually delivered.

If you have previously played 120 gram shafts comfortably, then I would suggest giving the $-TAPER HT heavy tip 120 a whirl in your pitching wedge club as a test.

If 120 is too heavy, then I suggest the Dynamic Gold 105, DG 120 R300, or their Elevate Tour mid-weight shafts, all of which would be lower balanced compared to the KBS TOUR and regular $-TAPER shafts.

Hope this helps.

Edited by TonyK50
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