Questions - I have em, lots of you probably have things you wonder about too. How about a thread to ask and discuss them?

[leekgolf]

I have questions about golf almost daily. Today I'm wondering about:

 

Planemate - has this device run it's course? For the last 18 months or so there was lots of discussion about this training device here, other forums, instagram,youtube, twitter all over the place. It seems to have stopped. Is it still going strong? If not what happened?

 

Shallowing - there's lot's of talk about shallowing in transition. What's the reason to shallow the start of the downswing? What is the impact? What happens if you don't shallow?

 

Hitting with the hands =  when I watch most elite players and teachers, it looks to me as if their hands don't hit the ball. I get the impression they rotate/pivot/turn through impact with no action from their hands. Is this true? How do people quiet their hands?

 

What questions do posters have? Can you give you opinion on my questions?  Do you have questions you wonder about?

 

What questions do instructors have? Ever wonder about what the students think about? Ever wonder about golfers who are lesson resistant?

 

Let's get some good give and take going!

[leekgolf]

On 5/20/2021 at 11:09 PM, Nels55 said:

This is an interesting topic and something that I have seen a lot of advice on over the years. 

 

I did a little experiment this afternoon on my skytrak setup to try to illustrate my own thinking on this subject.  My impact position is fairly nominal as I usually get my hands just past the ball at impact but not so much in a pro 'y' impact position of lead arm and club shaft.  I can do it though and today I worked on getting my hands way in front by hitting low shots with my nine iron.  Normally my nine iron flies right around 130 yards when I hit it well with my marginal impact position.  By 'improving' impact by trying to hit a low shot I was able to start flying it 150 yards.  Yippee!!! I am a pro!  Now I can hit my driver 399 yards like an average WRX'r!  Oh boy lets hit a few 3 hybrids first!  Normally I carry my 3 hybrid 190 to 200 yards on a good connection and sometimes up to 210 when I nail it.  By swinging like I was when I was killing my 9 iron I was able to keep same ball speed and reduce my carry to 180 yards or less because my launch angle was too low.  I could not really make the same delofting swing with my driver very well but on the few that I felt like I did I hit much reduced distance because of a loss of launch angle.  Basically for me the only thing getting my hands way in front of the ball does is to reduce my gapping.  

 

And another question raised by this post in another thread, does the "motorcycle" move require higher clubhead speed than a lot of golfers can generate? Is it a tour only type move? If so, how can the average guy square the clubface?

 

[PracticeSwinger]

On 5/27/2021 at 8:36 AM, leekgolf said:

Shallowing - there's lot's of talk about shallowing in transition. What's the reason to shallow the start of the downswing? What is the impact? What happens if you don't shallow?

 

Hitting with the hands =  when I watch most elite players and teachers, it looks to me as if their hands don't hit the ball. I get the impression they rotate/pivot/turn through impact with no action from their hands. Is this true? How do people quiet their hands?

I'll bite... In my opinion, the best explanation for shallowing is from Dr Mackenzie's paper; just look it up - self explanatory and why it's a good thing (also look at the link below as a reference also - and explanations)... and it surely helps with your second question on pivot; if you're able to achieve the shallowing dynamics in early transition, you are then setting yourself up to just pivot aggresively... while if you steepen early, only compensations : EE / stall / flip ('handsy' timing) can save you, stopping your pivot

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/473730/the-most-important-drill-in-golf/

[MonteScheinblum]

Why do you park in a driveway and drive on a parkway?

 

it’s more about not steeping than shallowing.  If the shaft is too vertical it creates a morass of badness and the need for compensations that produce bad results .

Most ams hit with their hands too much because they don’t hit with them enough.  
 

“Motorcycle move” benefits everyone and contradicts what you said about pros not using their hands.

 

The over all answer is simple.  The downswing happens in less time than a conscious move can be created, so it’s all reaction.  Reaction requires an equal and opposite action.  Ams try and create reactions as active actions and fail miserably.  It’s why most have to do something that defies logic.

 

If every golfer would start from the premise of Newton’s law of equal and opposite action/reactions...they would all get better.

 

Want less hands at impact? Use more to start downswing.

Want hips more open at impact?  Keep them closed longer.

Want more lag?  Throw it away. 
Want more up and back ground REACTION force?  Push down and forward.

 

 

[Millbrook]

Too many questions in one thread will just get messy.

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Want less hands at impact? Use more to start downswing.

Want hips more open at impact?  Keep them closed longer.

Want more lag?  Throw it away. 
Want more up and back ground REACTION force?  Push down and forward.

 

 

Golden!... would you say it's the 'max combo' one can think of while practicing since the downswing is reactionary?...

Only consicous thoughts when playing are, getting to the top : forward/left press + motorcycle... and it's gone

Practice is slow, 3/4 swings with a combo of these + Cast A and Rose... 

Edited May 28, 2021 by MtlJayMan

[bdcava]

Reverse sear steak or not?

[leekgolf]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Why do you park in a driveway and drive on a parkway?

 

it’s more about not steeping than shallowing.  If the shaft is too vertical it creates a morass of badness and the need for compensations that produce bad results .

Most ams hit with their hands too much because they don’t hit with them enough.  
 

“Motorcycle move” benefits everyone and contradicts what you said about pros not using their hands.

 

The over all answer is simple.  The downswing happens in less time than a conscious move can be created, so it’s all reaction.  Reaction requires an equal and opposite action.  Ams try and create reactions as active actions and fail miserably.  It’s why most have to do something that defies logic.

 

If every golfer would start from the premise of Newton’s law of equal and opposite action/reactions...they would all get better.

 

Want less hands at impact? Use more to start downswing.

Want hips more open at impact?  Keep them closed longer.

Want more lag?  Throw it away. 
Want more up and back ground REACTION force?  Push down and forward.

 

 

@MonteScheinblumFor the driveway/parkway question- fun question by the way- according to Merriam-Webster:

 

Both words came into written use in the 1800s, long before cars were even a glimmer in Henry Ford's eye.

 

Parkway originally referred to a broad road through a park:

The most important improvement made of late in the general plan of cities has been the introduction or increase in number and breadth of parkways.
— American Cyclopedia, 1875

So there's the connection between parks and parkway, but why do we drive on them? Parkways were the perfect places to drive a carriage down for a scenic jaunt out. Once automobiles came on the scene, parkways became the province of the car.

Driveway came into written use a bit earlier than parkway did. Unlike parkway, the word driveway didn't refer to where the path was (a drive), but what the path was for (driving). The earliest driveways were roads that ran alongside barns, where vehicles like wagons could drive up and either offload cargo (like hay, food, or livestock) or take on cargo (like hay, food, or livestock):

The building should be so placed that the barn floor could be laid upon the beams, and the drive-way be into the end directly under the roof.
— Henry Colman, Second Report on the Agriculture of Massachusetts, 1839

Of course, these access roads onto a property became handy places to park vehicles, and when the automobile age began, these off-street roads became ideal places to park the family car.

In time, the verbs that we used with parkway and driveway became fixed—drive with parkway and park with driveway. And George Carlin's stand-up routine about the nonsensical nature of English gained one more data point.

 

 

As for my questions Monte, my questions are sort of stream of thought.

 

 

The motorcycle move question was prompted by that post I quoted. What happened to his distances? As a know nothing hack golfer, I figured it had something to do with dynamic loft. Maybe not. I wonder when I "observe" a pro and it looks like they don't use their hands, am I really noticing the lack of a flip?

 

I ask questions at least of myself, if not others every day. Some are about golf. others are about damn near anything. "How do you solve the Israel/Palestine dilemma?" "Why are politicians so nasty to anyone who disagrees with them?" "Will hybrid cars/trucks become obsolete in the next 5-10 years?"  Why are auto colors so limited versus the past? It seems like they only sell white, black, silver and red. What happened to all those other  colors?

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by leekgolf

[leekgolf]

7 minutes ago, bdcava said:

Reverse sear steak or not?

Yes, absolutely! I converted to reverse sear after reading about it on a great BBQ site - Amazing Ribs dot com. It keeps me from over cooking the edges of the steak.

[leekgolf]

6 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

I'll bite... In my opinion, the best explanation for shallowing is from Dr Mackenzie's paper; just look it up - self explanatory and why it's a good thing (also look at the link below as a reference also - and explanations)... and it surely helps with your second question on pivot; if you're able to achieve the shallowing dynamics in early transition, you are then setting yourself up to just pivot aggresively... while if you steepen early, only compensations : EE / stall / flip ('handsy' timing) can save you, stopping your pivot

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/473730/the-most-important-drill-in-golf/

Thanks. Do you know the title of Dr. Mackenzie's white paper?

[betarhoalphadelta]

Why is tempo important and why do many instructors (like Monte) say that most ams are slowing it down when they should be speeding it up?

 

I recognize Monte's idea that you shouldn't use outlier tour swings as an excuse to do something that works for ONE guy instead of what works for 145 guys...

 

But when I watch golf, I see tempo that's all over the map. You see guys that take it away fast. You see guys that take it away slow. You see a guy like Sung-Jae Im who takes it backslow THEN fast. 

 

Why is the recommendation that most ams are too slow when on tour it almost seems like merely personal preference?

 

14 minutes ago, bdcava said:

Reverse sear steak or not?

 

No. I used to be a reverse sear guy, but I've found that the reverse sear ends up getting to a point where you have to choose getting perfect sear or perfect doneness, but because you're blasting it with so much heat when it's VERY close to done, it's hard to nail them both perfectly.

 

Instead, sear to proper color and then move to lower/indirect heat until you get to the temp to pull and rest. Easier to control the temp that way and you know you've already completed the sear. 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

17 minutes ago, leekgolf said:

Thanks. Do you know the title of Dr. Mackenzie's white paper?

http://www.sashomackenzie.com/publications/MacKenzie 2012 Club position relative to the golfer's swing plane meaningfully affects swing dynamics.pdf

[glk]

44 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Why is tempo important and why do many instructors (like Monte) say that most ams are slowing it down when they should be speeding it up?

 

I recognize Monte's idea that you shouldn't use outlier tour swings as an excuse to do something that works for ONE guy instead of what works for 145 guys...

 

But when I watch golf, I see tempo that's all over the map. You see guys that take it away fast. You see guys that take it away slow. You see a guy like Sung-Jae Im who takes it backslow THEN fast. 

 

Why is the recommendation that most ams are too slow when on tour it almost seems like merely personal preference?

 

 

No. I used to be a reverse sear guy, but I've found that the reverse sear ends up getting to a point where you have to choose getting perfect sear or perfect doneness, but because you're blasting it with so much heat when it's VERY close to done, it's hard to nail them both perfectly.

 

Instead, sear to proper color and then move to lower/indirect heat until you get to the temp to pull and rest. Easier to control the temp that way and you know you've already completed the sear. 

 

Tour guys are fast - takeaway to impact some are .8 sec, lots are 1 sec, some are around 1.19 sec and few are above - most are very close to 3-1 ratio (rhythm in their swings, especially when playing well).       Ams can have many compensation that require them to take much more time to swing - I've seen Monte film folks at clinics and do a side by side of them and the Big Easy - El's is at impact by the time or before the ams are at the top of the backswing - Big Easy swings fast - he is a 1 sec guy 21/7.     

 

Why swing fast.    Cause you can generate more force, ie more speed, for your swing.    Faster backswing means more force needed to stop it and reverse swing in transition, means more force in downswing, means more speed.    Some are strong enough to generate this without a fast swing - Hideki is an example but he has been working on speeding up himself and has.

 

Does this mean just trying to swing faster will give you more speed - maybe - you have to be able to control it and deliver it efficiently.   Does it mean if you swing at .8 or 18/6 you are a bomber - no, Zach Johnson is that fast, so is Kevin Kisner - so tempo is not the only factor here.     And no, your personality doesn't drive your tempo - what does being hyper, walking fast, or talking slow have to do with swinging the club - Freddy is Mr. Laid back and he is fast, Ditto Ernie.   Rory Sabitini plays fast but swings 27/9 or 1.2 sec.       Tour Tempo blog has interesting info on tempo and speed, etc.

 

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by glk

[betarhoalphadelta]

Interesting... I just stepped frame by frame through one of my video'd swings at 30 fps, and it was about 25/9 or 25/10 frames. So about 1.2 seconds total at a 2.5:1 tempo.

 

So is tempo more related to the total time of the swing or is it the 3:1 ratio? It sounds like if the goal is to generate the force to stop and reverse the swing in transition, maybe it's a bit of both?

 

Where is someone like Morikawa, on both ratio and total time? Same question for someone like Rahm? 

 

 

[glk]

10 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Interesting... I just stepped frame by frame through one of my video'd swings at 30 fps, and it was about 25/9 or 25/10 frames. So about 1.2 seconds total at a 2.5:1 tempo.

 

So is tempo more related to the total time of the swing or is it the 3:1 ratio? It sounds like if the goal is to generate the force to stop and reverse the swing in transition, maybe it's a bit of both?

 

Where is someone like Morikawa, on both ratio and total time? Same question for someone like Rahm? 

 

 

to me Novosel made it confusing when he coined the 3-1 ratio of backswing to downswing tour tempo - tour rhythm would be better but then maybe not as catchy - tempo is speed.      Off hand I don't know those players tempo - I've never seen Novosel post a list of players but rather scatter their tempo in different articles in his blog.    I know he clocked DJ with that long backswing is a 21/7 guy so he is moving it.    I would imagine Rahm is pretty fast too.   Back when Hideki beat Rickie (who is another fast guy at 21/7 but has been clocked at 18/6) in the playoff in Phoenix a few years back he said Hideki was swinging pretty much 30/10 during the round but in the playoff sped up to 24/8 (I believe).

Edited May 28, 2021 by glk

[Nard_S]

4 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Why do you park in a driveway and drive on a parkway?

 

it’s more about not steeping than shallowing.  If the shaft is too vertical it creates a morass of badness and the need for compensations that produce bad results .

Most ams hit with their hands too much because they don’t hit with them enough.  
 

“Motorcycle move” benefits everyone and contradicts what you said about pros not using their hands.

 

The over all answer is simple.  The downswing happens in less time than a conscious move can be created, so it’s all reaction.  Reaction requires an equal and opposite action.  Ams try and create reactions as active actions and fail miserably.  It’s why most have to do something that defies logic.

 

If every golfer would start from the premise of Newton’s law of equal and opposite action/reactions...they would all get better.

 

Want less hands at impact? Use more to start downswing.

Want hips more open at impact?  Keep them closed longer.

Want more lag?  Throw it away. 
Want more up and back ground REACTION force?  Push down and forward.

 

 

Great post. Really great.

 

For me, the biggest obstacle to advancing with the swing is shedding false perceptions that seem logical but are not. There's a bunch of counter intuitive truths that are difficult to latch onto because they do not seem plausible and sometimes they go outright against conventional wisdom. They say the biggest hazard is the 6" between the ears. That applies to more than just on the course play.

[tatertot]

I don't understand ... forums are to ask questions and discuss things ... but you want the entire forum to be on one thread ... I think you may have just broke the interwebs ... does anybody have Al Gore's number?

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, tatertot said:

I don't understand ... forums are to ask questions and discuss things ... but you want the entire forum to be on one thread ... I think you may have just broke the interwebs ... does anybody have Al Gore's number?

I think it's a bunch of threads he starts every day vs. all his random thoughts in this one. This works! ✌️

Edited May 29, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[leekgolf]

5 hours ago, MtlJayMan said:

http://www.sashomackenzie.com/publications/MacKenzie 2012 Club position relative to the golfer's swing plane meaningfully affects swing dynamics.pdf

Thanks

[leekgolf]

1 hour ago, tatertot said:

I don't understand ... forums are to ask questions and discuss things ... but you want the entire forum to be on one thread ... I think you may have just broke the interwebs ... does anybody have Al Gore's number?

 

I have questions every day. For years I just didn't post them because most are "minor" or not worth a long debate. Why not have a thread where anyone can post, I wonder why.....? and people can choose to answer.

 

25 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

I think it's a bunch of threads he starts every day vs. all his random thoughts in this one. This works! ✌️

I don't often start threads but I regularly wonder about things, especially while reading this forum. As an example, it seems to be generally accepted that shallowing is important. I didn't know why and I suspect there are plenty of others who also don't know why.

[glk]

22 minutes ago, leekgolf said:

Thanks

Here is an old video that works nicely with that paper.

 

[leekgolf]

thanks @glk

[leekgolf]

On 5/28/2021 at 3:36 PM, MtlJayMan said:

http://www.sashomackenzie.com/publications/MacKenzie 2012 Club position relative to the golfer's swing plane meaningfully affects swing dynamics.pdf

 

On 5/28/2021 at 9:02 PM, glk said:

Here is an old video that works nicely with that paper.

 

Here's another fascinating view on this

https://www.perfectgolfswingreview.net/finneykinetics.html

 

[leekgolf]

On 5/28/2021 at 3:24 PM, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

 

No. I used to be a reverse sear guy, but I've found that the reverse sear ends up getting to a point where you have to choose getting perfect sear or perfect doneness, but because you're blasting it with so much heat when it's VERY close to done, it's hard to nail them both perfectly.

 

Instead, sear to proper color and then move to lower/indirect heat until you get to the temp to pull and rest. Easier to control the temp that way and you know you've already completed the sear. 

 

@bdcava

 

Here's a good explanation of why to to reverse sear. According to the author, it's important if the steak is over 1" thick. Over the years, I've had great results listening to this guy for smoking and grilling especially ribs, steaks, roasts, chicken, turkey etc.

https://amazingribs.com/more-technique-and-science/more-cooking-science/cooking-temps-when-cook-hot-fast-when-cook-low-slow/

 

"We cook too hot and too fast. Yeah, I know we like fire and we like to put the pedal to the metal, but your food is already dead. You don’t have to kill it again.

OK, I’ll admit, sometimes hot and fast actually is the best way to cook, but most of the time low and slow is better, and more often still, a combination of both methods, and a vital technique called reverse sear, is best of all. Let’s discuss when to use each method, and how."

 

Another question - why are there so many different instruction sets on taking the grip properly? I've tried several and the instructions result in very different grips at least for me. One pro recently said 90% of the new students he sees have BAD grips.

 

I'm also curious, members like @MonteScheinblum@iteachgolf@Fort Worth Pro Do your new students usually have bad grips? Are the errors consistent? In any case, what causes these bad grips?

 

 

[Wormkiller]

I have a question relating to handicaps and stableford scoring - what does “buffer” mean? Bit of context “I am

pleased to make 30-33 points but disappointed to not make buffer”. 

[leekgolf]

22 hours ago, Wormkiller said:

I have a question relating to handicaps and stableford scoring - what does “buffer” mean? Bit of context “I am

pleased to make 30-33 points but disappointed to not make buffer”. 

I'm not familiar with buffer, but I wonder if it's similar to a Stableford game I've played called quota?

 

Here's how quota works.

 

In Stableford scoring par = 2 points (birdie 3, eagle 4, bogey 1, double bogey or worse 0)

par (2) x 18 = 36 points

 

Take the player's handicap and deduct it from 36 to get their quota.

ex. A player's course handicap is 10. Deduct 10 from 36. their quota is 26.

 

We get about 24 players - six foursomes and each guy tosses in 10 or 20 dollars. We pay 1st, 2nd, 3rd. 

 

In the example above based on $20 per player, 1st pays $240, 2nd pays $144, 3rd pays $96.

 

Could buffer be similar to quota?

 

 

[leekgolf]

If we take as "truth" that the arms and hands just stay in front of the chest in the backswing, and the wrists just c0ck up, would this keep most of us from never getting out backswing much past 9:00 or 10:00 o'clock?  Do the best players do this- keep the arms in front of the chest on the backswing? It would seem to me if the arms stay in front of the chest, to get to parallel one would need to have their chest turned about 130-35 degrees. Is that correct?