Jump to content

Southern Hills restoration & future colonial restoration.


Recommended Posts

This may be a personal thing, but southern hills and colonial have always been iconic courses because they rely on shot shaping through the trees and the raised, round, high faced white sand bunkers, and raised greens. I'm watching the senior PGA at southern hills, and they have eliminated the trees, changed to puzzle piece / geometric / woke golf flat bunkers with minimal faces and brown playbox sand, lowered the raised greens, and added weird unplayable Pinehurst style tall grass in and around the bunkers. Also flattened and very much widened the fairways. It seems like they destroyed their trademark course and are now just another Coore and Crenshaw wannabe wide open field with some weird angles and huge greens where every hole looks the same on TV. In my opinion, these restorations to historical conditions are a step backwards in most cases. 

 

Why is it so hard to convince a membership to make it better instead of going backwards to a different time?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I always liked the trees and woods shaping golf holes like many of the older golf courses in the northeast.  Unfortunately this makes it more difficult to maintain turf in these  areas, particularly around putting greens.  I think that is part of the trend also.

Driver: Titleist 913 D3 8.5° A-1 setting Graphite Design YS-6+ 65g stiff

Wood:  Titleist 980F 17° Aldila NV stiff

Hybrid: Titleist 909H 21° Aldila Voodoo stiff 

Irons:  Titleist 716 AP2 4- W  DG AMT S300

Wedges: Titleist Vokey SM7  54°,  58° DG S200

Putter:  Odyssey White Hot #1 Tour

Ball: Titleist Pro V1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My response was a bit snarky, but you would have to get into what issues the membership was trying to address. Trees compete for resources either the grass and make it much more difficult to maintain good playing surfaces if they are in the wrong place or too thick. The flashed up bunkers are expensive to maintain, there is a cost benefit analysis that needs to happen with liners to maintain the flashed or you can save significantly on installation and ongoing maintenance with flatter bottom bunkers and only lose some visual appeal for a portion of the members. There was probably a long list of items that the members wanted to address and this was the best way to accomplish their goals. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Courses historic and not historic have discovered all the trees they kept adding to the courses over time were having a very negative impact on the course, and needed to be removed.  In many instances they weren't part of the original design, just more added.  

 

Don't understand the complaint - if they are restoring to what the historic design and intent was then they are preserving the integrity of the original design.

 

All a matter of taste - watching yesterday I thought the course looked great.

 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Courses historic and not historic have discovered all the trees they kept adding to the courses over time were having a very negative impact on the course, and needed to be removed.  In many instances they weren't part of the original design, just more added.  

 

Don't understand the complaint - if they are restoring to what the historic design and intent was then they are preserving the integrity of the original design.

 

All a matter of taste - watching yesterday I thought the course looked great.

 

 


This is exactly right. They are restoring these courses to the way they were originally designed. BEFORE modern architects came in and decided every course in America had to have tree lined fairways and perfectly symmetrical bunkers. 
 

Personally I like the direction golf architecture is heading. I like my courses to look like they were built using the land given to them and not some sort of manufactured oasis. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Old Tom Morris said:

I always liked the trees and woods shaping golf holes like many of the older golf courses in the northeast.  Unfortunately this makes it more difficult to maintain turf in these  areas, particularly around putting greens.  I think that is part of the trend also.

Historically it seems like tree-lined courses were pretty rare. 

 

If you look at how Augusta used to look compared to how it looks now it's crazy. In general most courses used to be a lot more wide open than they are now. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Trees on golf courses are generally evil and should be used strategically and sparingly.  Architects who can't design challenging and interesting courses without resorting to extensive use of trees and/or green complexes from a putt-putt course should really be looking for work in the fast food industry.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Here is a really good article on the restoration - good read, and may add some needed context and information.

 

https://thefriedegg.com/southern-hills-country-club-restoration/

 

I was going to post the exact same thing, except for the fact that I hate (despise?) the name of the site but those aerial shots are exceptional at showing how the golf course has evolved over time. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great read Hawk, thank you.

 

I've played no less than a hundred rounds at Southern Hills starting in 1990 and lastly this past October. I can tell you from experience that the restoration plays no easier than it's predecessor. And it still has that feeling off number one that is indescribably nostalgic yet euphoric simultaneously. Its still a damned good golf course.

  • Like 1

 

 

The answer to better golf is hit it better, farther, and make more putts.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, nitram said:

Great read Hawk, thank you.

 

I've played no less than a hundred rounds at Southern Hills starting in 1990 and lastly this past October. I can tell you from experience that the restoration plays no easier than it's predecessor. And it still has that feeling off number one that is indescribably nostalgic yet euphoric simultaneously. Its still a damned good golf course.

Wow, sounds fun!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I always knew Southern Hills was a great course but it never resonated with me in past majors.  What Hanse did in bringing back the Maxwell design is spectacular.  Keep in mind Maxwell was so highly thought of by Alister MacKenzie that he chose him as a partner.  The course looks compelling and played great.  I actually can't wait to see it for next year's PGA.   Props to the members.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/29/2021 at 5:45 AM, klebs01 said:

My response was a bit snarky, but you would have to get into what issues the membership was trying to address. Trees compete for resources either the grass and make it much more difficult to maintain good playing surfaces if they are in the wrong place or too thick. The flashed up bunkers are expensive to maintain, there is a cost benefit analysis that needs to happen with liners to maintain the flashed or you can save significantly on installation and ongoing maintenance with flatter bottom bunkers and only lose some visual appeal for a portion of the members. There was probably a long list of items that the members wanted to address and this was the best way to accomplish their goals. 


Not to mention the irrigation issues trees can cause. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Original designes of most of the top courses did not include many trees.  The picture below is #2 at Pine Valley in the 20's.  Seminole, Augusta, Pebble and to a lesser extent Cypress Point all had fewer or no Trees early on.  The greatest golf IMO fundamentally relies on surface topography to dictate shot shape and trajectory and not obstacles in the flight path of the ball.  The current trend to reduce trees is in my opinon great for golf architecture.  Check out some of the before and after here: http://thebottomgroove.com/2017/12/22/pine-valley-golf-club-1950-2015/

 

Pine_Valley_1921.png

Edited by vallygolf
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Our picks

    • 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Discussion and links to Photos
      Please put any questions or Comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Monday #1
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Monday #2
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #1
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #2
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Thorbjorn Olesen - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Ben Silverman - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jesse Droemer - SoTX PGA Section POY - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      David Lipsky - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Martin Trainer - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Zac Blair - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jacob Bridgeman - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Trace Crowe - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jimmy Walker - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Daniel Berger - WITB(very mini) - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Chesson Hadley - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Callum McNeill - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Rhein Gibson - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Patrick Fishburn - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Peter Malnati - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Raul Pereda - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Gary Woodland WITB (New driver, iron shafts) – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Padraig Harrington WITB – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Tom Hoge's custom Cameron - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Piretti putters - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Ping putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Kevin Dougherty's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Bettinardi putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Erik Barnes testing an all-black Axis1 putter – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Tony Finau's new driver shaft – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
       
      • 7 replies
    • 2024 Valspar Championship WITB Photos (Thanks to bvmagic)- Discussion & Links to Photos
      This weeks WITB Pics are from member bvmagic (Brian). Brian's first event for WRX was in 2008 at Bayhill while in college. Thanks so much bv.
       
      Please put your comments or question on this thread. Links to all the threads are below...
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 31 replies
    • 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Matt (LFG) Every - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Sahith Theegala - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Cameron putters (and new "LD" grip) - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Bettinardi MB & CB irons - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Bettinardi API putter cover - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Swag API covers - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Golf Pride Reverse Taper grips - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 15 replies
    • 2024 Cognizant Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies

×
×
  • Create New...