Referees: Common Rulings

[Axiom]

For those of you who referee during non-club tournaments, what are the common rulings you are asked to make? In other words, what are the common questions players have of you as a referee?

[Mr. Bean]

Most common are various reliefs, mainly from Abnormal Ground Conditions (GUR or what a player wishes to have as GUR, Temporary Water, Immovable Obstructions). Then 'do we have winter rule' is a regrettably common question as the players do not fancy reading the Local Rules or Conditions of Competition sheets.

 

Then a mixture of everything between 'may I clean my ball when I lift it' and 'how many penalties I get for hitting the ball of my mate' and so on.

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[sui generis]

I find it depends on the ages and experience levels of the players. Experienced juniors don't need much help. Skilled amateurs and college players don't need much help, either. Old men will happily tell you to eff off. 😉

 

The rest need and generally ask for the usual stuff noted above by Mr Bean. "My ball moved, what do I do?" "Where can I drop?" 

[Axiom]

32 minutes ago, sui generis said:

I find it depends on the ages and experience levels of the players. Experienced juniors don't need much help. Skilled amateurs and college players don't need much help, either. Old men will happily tell you to eff off. 😉

 

The rest need and generally ask for the usual stuff noted above by Mr Bean. "My ball moved, what do I do?" "Where can I drop?" 

When the old men tell you to eff off, how do you respond?

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, Axiom said:

When the old men tell you to eff off, how do you respond?

 

Why don't we eff off together?

[Mr. Bean]

38 minutes ago, sui generis said:

Old men will happily tell you to eff off. 😉

 

 

Why would they do that if they have asked you to come around and help? 🤔

[Axiom]

13 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Why would they do that if they have asked you to come around and help? 🤔

It does lead to the question: what do you do if a player decides to ignore your ruling and proceed incorrectly?

[Mr. Bean]

13 minutes ago, Axiom said:

It does lead to the question: what do you do if a player decides to ignore your ruling and proceed incorrectly?

 

You let them do it and make sure they add the missing penalty strokes in their score. If they refuse to do it you DQ them. Fair and square.

[Newby]

3 hours ago, Axiom said:

For those of you who referee during non-club tournaments, what are the common rulings you are asked to make? In other words, what are the common questions players have of you as a referee?

Can I get relief from 'this'? Where can I drop?

[sui generis]

2 hours ago, Axiom said:

When the old men tell you to eff off, how do you respond?

 

Okay, Bob. Anytime you need some help just let me know. 😉

[ChipNRun]

I play sometimes in the area amateur circuit events. Most questions deal with how to drop out of hazards after taking penalty.

 

It gets complicated when "local rules" are involved, especially when tournament organizers decide we'll use Local Rules 1 and 3, but not 2, 4, and 5.

 

The weekly events serve as a training ground for officials for regional amateur and pro events, so proper procedures are emphasized.

[Halebopp]

One, more difficult ruling I came across several times in the first events I worked in was players assuming a ball was lost in a Penalty Area (or Water Hazard as it was back then) but finding the original ball outside of it after having taken relief from the PA. Those cases happened in junior events so they had the brains to call me.

 

Yesterday I got a call from our club about the same situation (I wasn't working as a RO but the club can call me when needed), in this case the player managed to get himself DQ'd for taking relief, then finding the original ball and picking up the substituted ball, finishing the hole only with the original ball.

[2bGood]

Maybe not what you are asking, but my most common 'interventions'.

 

1. Signing for a wrong score. Turns out numbers are hard. 

 

2. The '10 min' ball search. No one seems to actually time it. Someone taught me to start a clock the minute you show up. 3min goes fast and typically you get there long after the search begun. 

 

3. Some version of not holing out properly - hitting a moving putt, picking up a 4" putt etc. 

 

4. In the old days in multi day events practicing on the course after the round cam up allot. Never any malice, typically guys from out of town out of the area having a few drinks and deciding to go play some betting game on the empty course. Always sucked to DQ them.

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, 2bGood said:

4. In the old days in multi day events practicing on the course after the round cam up allot. Never any malice, typically guys from out of town out of the area having a few drinks and deciding to go play some betting game on the empty course. Always sucked to DQ them.

 

 

Fortunately this has now been changed, no more DQ for that.

[antip]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Fortunately this has now been changed, no more DQ for that.

The national body hard card here bans practice on the competition course between rounds of a multiday competition, ie, re-instates the DQ 2BG raises.

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, antip said:

The national body hard card here bans practice on the competition course between rounds of a multiday competition, ie, re-instates the DQ 2BG raises.

 

Indeed CoC's can change the situation but I was merely referring to the change in the actual Rules.

[antip]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Indeed CoC's can change the situation but I was merely referring to the change in the actual Rules.

I understand, just thought you'd be interested.

[Mr. Bean]

3 minutes ago, antip said:

I understand, just thought you'd be interested.

 

We have the same here in our HC.

 

I wonder what is the reason? Avoid unnecessary wear? Give room for greenkeeping staff? I doubt too many would use a lot of time on the course after the round in a multi-round competition.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Axiom]

6 hours ago, 2bGood said:

Maybe not what you are asking, but my most common 'interventions'.

 

1. Signing for a wrong score. Turns out numbers are hard. 

 

2. The '10 min' ball search. No one seems to actually time it. Someone taught me to start a clock the minute you show up. 3min goes fast and typically you get there long after the search begun. 

 

3. Some version of not holing out properly - hitting a moving putt, picking up a 4" putt etc. 

 

4. In the old days in multi day events practicing on the course after the round cam up allot. Never any malice, typically guys from out of town out of the area having a few drinks and deciding to go play some betting game on the empty course. Always sucked to DQ them.

 

 

Good examples, especially the 10 minute ball search. No one seems to know how to use the timer on their ubiquitous smart phone.

[2bGood]

4 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Fortunately this has now been changed, no more DQ for that.

That was a change I was happy to see, despite putting that rule in bold on the rule sheet it occurred with great frequency. 

 

But people don't actually read the rule sheet. 🤷‍♂️ Let alone the rules 🥺

Edited June 2, 2021 by 2bGood

[rogolf]

8 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

That was a change I was happy to see, despite putting that rule in bold on the rule sheet it occurred with great frequency. 

 

But people don't actually read the rule sheet. 🤷‍♂️ Let alone the rules 🥺

We frequently referred to our Notice to Players (NTP) as the DNR (do not read or did not read).

Edited June 2, 2021 by rogolf

[antip]

13 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

We have the same here in our HC.

 

I wonder what is the reason? Avoid unnecessary wear? Give room for greenkeeping staff? I doubt too many would use a lot of time on the course after the round in a multi-round competition.

 

 

I can see a few good reasons. In the big events, quite a number of players are prepared to work hard on their games, on the practice fairways and wherever...  I could see players out and around a few of the more challenging greens doing a lot of chipping and putting, knocking the course around, and potentially impeding the course staff setting up holes for the following day (and potentially practicing on the following day's actual hole positions).

Edited June 3, 2021 by antip

[rogolf]

28 minutes ago, antip said:

I can see a few good reasons. In the big events, quite a number of players are prepared to work hard on their games, on the practice fairways and wherever...  I could see players out and around a few of the more challenging greens doing a lot of chipping and putting, knocking the course around, and potentially impeding the course staff setting up holes for the following day (and potentially practicing on the following day's actual hole positions).

It makes ultimate sense.  Keep the players from practicing on the course between rounds.  No player(s) should be able to gain an advantage over the other players by practicing on the course between rounds.  Imo, it would be an absolute nightmare on the course.

 

When referees do setup on the first day, they pick and identify hole locations for the second day, and so on.  Players can see the hole locations for the second day during the first round, but are not allowed to practice (putt) to them during the round, and should not be allowed between rounds.
 

When I'm doing hole locations for the first round before or during the practice round, I work very hard to make sure the players can't find them.   My philosophy when doing this is that either everyone sees them or nobody sees them, and I am adamant that nobody sees them.  Some players may not be able to have a practice round the day before the event or complete that practice round due to inconsiderate players in front of them taking so long on the greens.

Edited June 3, 2021 by rogolf

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, rogolf said:

It makes ultimate sense.  Keep the players from practicing on the course between rounds.  No player(s) should be able to gain an advantage over the other players by practicing on the course between rounds. 

 

For some reason the RBs have not been so adamant about it. After all, everyone would have the same possibility of doing the practice. Which brings to my mind the fact that a player may go on the course before the round or after one with their caddie and let the caddie do the testing. Have not seen that happen ever, though.

 

  

6 hours ago, rogolf said:

Some players may not be able to have a practice round the day before the event or complete that practice round due to inconsiderate players in front of them taking so long on the greens.

 

So far I have not experienced such inconsiderate players during practice rounds. If someone would use considerable time on the green the following group would certainly let them hear about it.

 

Nonetheless, fair arguments from both antip and rogolf. 

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[rogolf]

Which brings to my mind the fact that a player may go on the course before the round or after one with their caddie and let the caddie do the testing. Have not seen that happen ever, though.

The PGA Tour actually have a rule that caddies are not permitted on putting greens before rounds.  I discovered this while doing morning setup with one of their officials - a caddie followed us around for nine holes, watching us putt to the hole location and making notes, but never set foot on the greens.  The official informed me of their rule.

Edited June 3, 2021 by rogolf

[Sawgrass]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

Which brings to my mind the fact that a player may go on the course before the round or after one with their caddie and let the caddie do the testing. Have not seen that happen ever, though.

The PGA Tour actually have a rule that caddies are not permitted on putting greens before rounds.  I discovered this while doing morning setup with one of their officials - a caddie followed us around for nine holes, watching us putt to the hole location and making notes, but never set foot on the greens.  The official informed me of their rule.

I’m curious as to how this caddie rule is enforced, after all, they don’t have a score.

[Abh159]

14 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

I’m curious as to how this caddie rule is enforced, after all, they don’t have a score.

 

Suspension or fines would be my guess, but I don't know that for sure. 

[rogolf]

15 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

I’m curious as to how this caddie rule is enforced, after all, they don’t have a score.

Likely internal Tour discipline.

[davep043]

15 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

I’m curious as to how this caddie rule is enforced, after all, they don’t have a score.

This is in the PGA Tour Player Handbook, this from the 2019-2020 version:

Quote

Caddies may walk unaccompanied on putting greens during practice round days if play is not disrupted. Caddies may not walk on putting greens on any day, at any time, before or after a Pro-Am or official tournament round.

.......

A caddie who does not comply with these Caddie Regulations will be subject to losing the privilege to caddie on the PGA TOUR. Also, for any violation of these regulations, disciplinary action may be taken against the player for whom the caddie is providing services.

 

https://qualifying.pgatourhq.com/static-assets/uploads/2019-2020-pga-tour-handbook--regs-09_10_19.pdf

[sui generis]

6 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Likely internal Tour discipline.

 

First offense is a verbal caution to the caddie.

Second offense is a group punishment to all caddies working that week. No free donuts in the caddie shed. Peer pressure works. 😰