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Achievements since 2000:

 

1. Tiger Woods

2. Phil Mickelson

3. Rory McIlroy

4. Ernie Els

5. Vijay Singh

6. Dustin Johnson

7. Sergio Garcia

8. Adam Scott

9. Jordan Spieth

10. Retief Goosen

11. Padraig Harrington

12. Brooks Koepka

13. Justin Rose

14. Jim Furyk

15. Henrik Stenson

16. Jason Day

17. Zach Johnson

18. Lee Westwood

19. Bubba Watson

20. Martin Kaymer

21. Justin Thomas

22. Paul Casey

23. Graeme McDowell

24. David Toms

25. Matt Kuchar

 

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Is this Wayne Gretzky’s burner account?

Good list; sometimes I struggle with placing Jones and Hagen because they were from a radically different era but it is true they were great.  I’d probably move Mickelsen up to 11 or 12. The oldest

No such thing as Goats it is Goat, can't have a more than one GOAT.

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16 hours ago, oikos1 said:

That sounds good in theory, but you already combined apples and oranges and lemons and limes.  The 100m sprint is a linear measurement that allows for one parameter to determine who is the fastest.  Basketball, golf and most other sports require multiple skill sets to excel and achieve consideration for Goat status.  Not to mention a career that is often impacted by contracts, injuries and longevity.

 

Agree that athletes are bigger, faster and stronger but if you don't have the wins and championships, you're not getting consideration for The Goat.  Error of recency also clouds the ability to make unbiased assessments.  Following your theory, who in golf that is "playing right now" in the upcoming Memorial Tournament is the Goat?

"The simplest measure of the progress is the 100m sprint." That means that it is simplest measure to understand if athletes are still evolving or if the curve has flatlined or not.  Scientifically that is the first question that must be answered is "are athletes still getting bigger faster and stronger, they unequivocally are. Usain Bolt is a bigger, faster, stronger version of all those that came before him and until the 100m record stands for a substantial amount of time then athletes are continuing to evolve.  That being said this will be true across all sports so long as athletes continue to be injected into the sport.  

 

Case in point is that many will spout off Michael Jordan as the GOAT when he last played in the league some 23 years ago.  Many forget that he was roughly the size of Steph Curry when he entered the league.  Lebron James is a bigger, faster, stronger version of all that came before him and he is dominant among more dominant athletes. There are more pitchers in the major leagues throwing 95 mph and greater than ever.  Bigger faster and stronger athletes are picking golf and one day one of them will pair the requisite skillset with Tiger's mental toughness and drive and will become the GOAT but will likely not match Tiger's 15 majors. But he doesn't have to because it will become more and more difficult to win majors as the playing field becomes stronger and stronger so dominance among an ever increasingly talented playing field will become tougher to achieve because the difference between the playing field  and that dominant athlete will be pressing against the ceiling of peak athletic performance.  

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1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

"The simplest measure of the progress is the 100m sprint." That means that it is simplest measure to understand if athletes are still evolving or if the curve has flatlined or not.  Scientifically that is the first question that must be answered is "are athletes still getting bigger faster and stronger, they unequivocally are. Usain Bolt is a bigger, faster, stronger version of all those that came before him and until the 100m record stands for a substantial amount of time then athletes are continuing to evolve.  That being said this will be true across all sports so long as athletes continue to be injected into the sport.  

 

Case in point is that many will spout off Michael Jordan as the GOAT when he last played in the league some 23 years ago.  Many forget that he was roughly the size of Steph Curry when he entered the league.  Lebron James is a bigger, faster, stronger version of all that came before him and he is dominant among more dominant athletes. There are more pitchers in the major leagues throwing 95 mph and greater than ever.  Bigger faster and stronger athletes are picking golf and one day one of them will pair the requisite skillset with Tiger's mental toughness and drive and will become the GOAT but will likely not match Tiger's 15 majors. But he doesn't have to because it will become more and more difficult to win majors as the playing field becomes stronger and stronger so dominance among an ever increasingly talented playing field will become tougher to achieve because the difference between the playing field  and that dominant athlete will be pressing against the ceiling of peak athletic performance.  

On the 100m sprint, Bolt is an outlier or he also took drugs but every single other sprinter under 9.8 either has failed a drugs test or is linked to drugs, you had to go back to Donovan Bailey's 9.84 in 1996 to get one that isn't. Could argue Maurice Greene 9.79 if you believe he's innocent, but that was in 1999.

 

The best 100m time in 2021 so far is Trayvon Bromell with 9.88, that's not far off Carl Lewis in the 1980s. So either it's more legitimate now or there hasn't been major improvements in athletes over the past 30-40 years. Hicham El Guerrouj holds the 1500m and mile records from the 1990s, long jump is from 1991, 400m hurdles world record is from 1992, high jump is from 1993, triple jump is from 1995.

 

In women, the 100m and 200m record is from 1988, 400m is from 1985, 800m is from 1983. We know the main reason for this (doping) but still modern athletes can't get anywhere near these records, even with all the advances in technology.

 

So while I agree that things got better for a long time, there was a big difference between the 1980s and the 1920s for example, it has gradually plateaued over the last number of years. Physicality could help in golf, but there's no new Tiger Woods coming any time soon - Tiger was a physical beast, mentally tough, really skilful and trained from a toddler. It was a unique set of circumstances that created an all-time great that isn't easy to replicate.

 

In your basketball analogy, I don't agree about athletes in the 1990s comparing to today, there isn't enough of a time difference to notice a big change. Jordan was another physical specimen who would dominate in the paint today as well, his leap and dunks were so incredible it launched the sport into another orbit, so he's not going to struggle in the physical department. The most interesting debate isn't about physical difference but about changes to the game - the fast 3 point game vs the rough and ready 90s, how Jordan would have adapted to the modern game. It also applies to golf, how modern equipment and courses have changed the game and the type of player that is produced.

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You have to move phil up to at least 11 in my book. He’s certainly passed Faldo now . 

 

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1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

You have to move phil up to at least 11 in my book. He’s certainly passed Faldo now . 

 wouldn't put him ahead of nelson or watson, but after the usual top 11, he's ahead of faldo/seve/trevino ...

 

phil vs nelson vs watson is an interesting discussion ... would be 45/6 vs 52/5 vs 39/8, wins/majors ... nelson had the lowest scoring avg ever till tiger's 2000 year, and '45 was still played against a decently competitive field, most of the time ... watson won 5+ times a year from '77 thru '80, and 3+ times in '81, '82, '84 ... he was unquestionably the world's #1 from '77 thru '84 ... 

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16 minutes ago, tiderider said:

 wouldn't put him ahead of nelson or watson, but after the usual top 11, he's ahead of faldo/seve/trevino ...

 

phil vs nelson vs watson is an interesting discussion ... would be 45/6 vs 52/5 vs 39/8, wins/majors ... nelson had the lowest scoring avg ever till tiger's 2000 year, and '45 was still played against a decently competitive field, most of the time ... watson won 5+ times a year from '77 thru '80, and 3+ times in '81, '82, '84 ... he was unquestionably the world's #1 from '77 thru '84 ... 

Your first sentence summarizes my sentiment on the futility of this discussion…..

after the usual top 11

 

this The top 11 are practically entrenched.  There will be another Tiger someday but he will likely get to numbers more like 55 and 10  or similar and many will keep that accomplishment  out of the top 5  because “the numbers aren’t there”.  
  As long as the numbers of talented players keeps increasing the career numbers will go down as wins are spread amongst more players.

  That does not mean they are not superior to the players of a century ago!  But folks will keep trotting out the career numbers of Sarazen and the like to “prove” they were better.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Dave230 said:

On the 100m sprint, Bolt is an outlier or he also took drugs but every single other sprinter under 9.8 either has failed a drugs test or is linked to drugs, you had to go back to Donovan Bailey's 9.84 in 1996 to get one that isn't. Could argue Maurice Greene 9.79 if you believe he's innocent, but that was in 1999.

 

The best 100m time in 2021 so far is Trayvon Bromell with 9.88, that's not far off Carl Lewis in the 1980s. So either it's more legitimate now or there hasn't been major improvements in athletes over the past 30-40 years. Hicham El Guerrouj holds the 1500m and mile records from the 1990s, long jump is from 1991, 400m hurdles world record is from 1992, high jump is from 1993, triple jump is from 1995.

 

In women, the 100m and 200m record is from 1988, 400m is from 1985, 800m is from 1983. We know the main reason for this (doping) but still modern athletes can't get anywhere near these records, even with all the advances in technology.

 

So while I agree that things got better for a long time, there was a big difference between the 1980s and the 1920s for example, it has gradually plateaued over the last number of years. Physicality could help in golf, but there's no new Tiger Woods coming any time soon - Tiger was a physical beast, mentally tough, really skilful and trained from a toddler. It was a unique set of circumstances that created an all-time great that isn't easy to replicate.

 

In your basketball analogy, I don't agree about athletes in the 1990s comparing to today, there isn't enough of a time difference to notice a big change. Jordan was another physical specimen who would dominate in the paint today as well, his leap and dunks were so incredible it launched the sport into another orbit, so he's not going to struggle in the physical department. The most interesting debate isn't about physical difference but about changes to the game - the fast 3 point game vs the rough and ready 90s, how Jordan would have adapted to the modern game. It also applies to golf, how modern equipment and courses have changed the game and the type of player that is produced.

If there is no proof that Bolt has doped then that argument is invalid because you could just say that about anyone who is dominant or a physical outlier. Tiger is not a physical outlier anymore like he used to be and there are many that hit it much further than he does nowadays but the standard to dominate in today's game is higher now.  The training modalities are simply better than they were when Tiger started playing golf.  Jordan's athletic talent sits on the bench in the NBA now as they are all freaks of nature. The things that Lebron, Kevin Durant, etc. do in todays game would crush previous generations.  You do know that Lebron James is the same size as Karl Malone....who is a hall of fame center.  The main physical outlier in the the NBA is Zion Williamson.  6'6" 290 with a 40 something inch vertical...ridiculous. I said that the next Tiger may not even be born yet but there will be another GOAT after Tiger. There will always be another one at some point.

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38 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If there is no proof that Bolt has doped then that argument is invalid because you could just say that about anyone who is dominant or a physical outlier. Tiger is not a physical outlier anymore like he used to be and there are many that hit it much further than he does nowadays but the standard to dominate in today's game is higher now.  The training modalities are simply better than they were when Tiger started playing golf.  Jordan's athletic talent sits on the bench in the NBA now as they are all freaks of nature. The things that Lebron, Kevin Durant, etc. do in todays game would crush previous generations.  You do know that Lebron James is the same size as Karl Malone....who is a hall of fame center.  The main physical outlier in the the NBA is Zion Williamson.  6'6" 290 with a 40 something inch vertical...ridiculous. I said that the next Tiger may not even be born yet but there will be another GOAT after Tiger. There will always be another one at some point.


 

Tiger got to #5 in the world from #1200 in the world within less than 2 years.

 

He was 42 years old.

 

Every aspect of his game, perhaps besides his iron game, but certainly including his driving, short game, and putting, were a SHADOW of his skills in his prime.

 

He had no cartilage in his left knee and basically has to swing to protect it.

 

And he had spinal injuries resulting in him not being able to walk, much less play golf, and have multiple surgeries including fusing his spine together with screws.

 

Oh, and he was apparently recovering from being hooked on the drugs he was taking to mitigate all the pain. 
 

Now, winning the Masters was not a “lightning in a bottle” situation. He methodically beat, beat, and beat, pretty much all the “young guns” over the course of a year and a half to rise to #5 in the world.

 

He beat all the top guys at the TC. Then he won the Masters agains the entire planet of the best golfers. 
 

 

So, you sure TW wouldn’t be as dominant against these chumps?

 

Cause TW 1.0 would absolutely beat the crap out of these guys.

 

I can tell you why in simple terms if you’d like to know ; )

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34 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If there is no proof that Bolt has doped then that argument is invalid because you could just say that about anyone who is dominant or a physical outlier. Tiger is not a physical outlier anymore like he used to be and there are many that hit it much further than he does nowadays but the standard to dominate in today's game is higher now.  The training modalities are simply better than they were when Tiger started playing golf.  Jordan's athletic talent sits on the bench in the NBA now as they are all freaks of nature. The things that Lebron, Kevin Durant, etc. do in todays game would crush previous generations.  You do know that Lebron James is the same size as Karl Malone....who is a hall of fame center.  The main physical outlier in the the NBA is Zion Williamson.  6'6" 290 with a 40 something inch vertical...ridiculous. I said that the next Tiger may not even be born yet but there will be another GOAT after Tiger. There will always be another one at some point.

"but the standard to dominate in today's game is higher now". 

 

That's an illusion created by an ever increasing pool of exceptionally talented golfers.  The standard to dominate in golf is still the same now as it was when Nicklaus played and when Tiger played:  Hit the ball far, hit the ball close, make the putt, win.

 

 

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Professional golf is always played against peers.  The goat of a generation in golf is the goat because he outplayed all of the top players in a decisive fashion.

 

Who has the highest winning percentage in golf?  That's not the only measure but it's one that afaik hasn't been brought into the discussion.

 

How many majors would Phil have if Tiger wasn't in the mix during Phil's prime? 

 

Tiger is in the goat discussion because he has the mental fortitude to go along with his skills.  Strength training isn't going to make up for a golfer with skills who collapses under pressure.

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2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

If there is no proof that Bolt has doped then that argument is invalid because you could just say that about anyone who is dominant or a physical outlier. Tiger is not a physical outlier anymore like he used to be and there are many that hit it much further than he does nowadays but the standard to dominate in today's game is higher now.  The training modalities are simply better than they were when Tiger started playing golf.  Jordan's athletic talent sits on the bench in the NBA now as they are all freaks of nature. The things that Lebron, Kevin Durant, etc. do in todays game would crush previous generations.  You do know that Lebron James is the same size as Karl Malone....who is a hall of fame center.  The main physical outlier in the the NBA is Zion Williamson.  6'6" 290 with a 40 something inch vertical...ridiculous. I said that the next Tiger may not even be born yet but there will be another GOAT after Tiger. There will always be another one at some point.

tiger's "athleticism" is way over-stated ... he was never a 'world class athlete' in any way, shape or form ... and jordan sits on the bench today? ... 

 

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17 minutes ago, tiderider said:

tiger's "athleticism" is way over-stated ... he was never a 'world class athlete' in any way, shape or form ... and jordan sits on the bench today? ... 

 

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Kevin Durant says Michael Jordan would be 'the best player in the league' in today's NBA

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kevin-durant-says-michael-jordan-would-be-the-best-player-in-the-league-in-todays-nba/amp/


He also said,

 

“MJ is one of one, god level, unmatched, unparalleled, a pure master at this s**t,” Durant responded. “I’m still watching his games to learn. Leave me out of it please.”

 

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1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:


 

Kevin Durant says Michael Jordan would be 'the best player in the league' in today's NBA

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kevin-durant-says-michael-jordan-would-be-the-best-player-in-the-league-in-todays-nba/amp/


He also said,

 

“MJ is one of one, god level, unmatched, unparalleled, a pure master at this s**t,” Durant responded. “I’m still watching his games to learn. Leave me out of it please.”

 

 

Durant throwing shade at Bron.

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7 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Your first sentence summarizes my sentiment on the futility of this discussion…..

after the usual top 11

 

this The top 11 are practically entrenched.  There will be another Tiger someday but he will likely get to numbers more like 55 and 10  or similar and many will keep that accomplishment  out of the top 5  because “the numbers aren’t there”.  
  As long as the numbers of talented players keeps increasing the career numbers will go down as wins are spread amongst more players.

  That does not mean they are not superior to the players of a century ago!  But folks will keep trotting out the career numbers of Sarazen and the like to “prove” they were better.

 

 

The golfers of today are better than the golfers of the past.  I don't think that can be argued.  But that's not what we argue when we get into these discussions.  It's about their records against their peers in the time frame that they competed.  The improvement in equipment, agronomy,  and training and the money to accomplish it all... you just can't compare era's in that way.  But you can compare accomplishments.

 

 If you took Walter Hagen and had him compete against Dustin Johnson on a 7500 yard golf course with each using the equipment of their time, Hagen probably wouldn't come within 10 strokes of him.  But I don't think that's what we're really talking about when we compare them in a historical sense.  Golf has evolved but greatness is still greatness and it stretches across eras.  You know it when you see it.  It can be difficult to measure but it surely can be discussed and with all the innuendos and inconsistencies that go with it. 

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Perfect example of why Goats are rare and generational:  Rory McIlroy.   Came on the scene in 2011 and won four majors in four years.  Many were saying he is going to be "the one".  The phenom to top Jack and Tiger.  Six years later and he's 0-26 in majors. 

 

Sans a foot race, you've got to be a winning badass for a long time to garner GOAT status.  The records will take care of themselves.

 

 

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38 minutes ago, widow-maker said:

The golfers of today are better than the golfers of the past.  I don't think that can be argued.  But that's not what we argue when we get into these discussions.  It's about their records against their peers in the time frame that they competed.  The improvement in equipment, agronomy,  and training and the money to accomplish it all... you just can't compare era's in that way.  But you can compare accomplishments.

 

 If you took Walter Hagen and had him compete against Dustin Johnson on a 7500 yard golf course with each using the equipment of their time, Hagen probably wouldn't come within 10 strokes of him.  But I don't think that's what we're really talking about when we compare them in a historical sense.  Golf has evolved but greatness is still greatness and it stretches across eras.  You know it when you see it.  It can be difficult to measure but it surely can be discussed and with all the innuendos and inconsistencies that go with it. 

If that is the case……wouldn’t Phil be clearly ahead of one of Hogan Nelson Snead?  If we are not going by win totals but by best of their era wouldn’t the guy that is clearly #2 in the last quarter century be ahead of the third best guy born in 1912?  Nine of the top 22 on the wins total were born from 1902-1912.  Was there something in the water that decade that made them great golfers or is there possibly another reason or two for their inflated win totals?  Does that not tell anyone else about the relative ease of winning events in that time from starting about 20 years later, say 1922-1950 than it has been for the last quarter century when only three of the top 22 competed?  

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23 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Perfect example of why Goats are rare and generational:  Rory McIlroy.   Came on the scene in 2011 and won four majors in four years.  Many were saying he is going to be "the one".  The phenom to top Jack and Tiger.  Six years later and he's 0-26 in majors. 

 

Sans a foot race, you've got to be a winning badass for a long time to garner GOAT status.  The records will take care of themselves.

 

 


 

Yes, People need to break it down because just saying,

 

“The talent is too good now” is not the reason the there is no dominant player.

 

In Rory’s case, dominant ball striker, wedge game good, putter not very good.

 

How can he dominate week to week ?

 

Brysons case, Driver is insane, putter excellent, wedge game not that good, irons good.

 

How can he dominate week to week?

 

 

Now look at Tiger, tee to green freaking insane (even with poor accuracy off the tee), wedge game insane, putting insane.

 

Ok, he can dominate. 
 

Then add the mental toughness and you got a generational player.

 

 

Its whats in the toolbox that counts. If a guy comes along and isn’t missing any of these key pieces, and he has the mental toughness, he can dominate.

 

Rory, Spieth, BK, DJ, JT. All have a great combo of skills and certain aspects are lights out.

 

But none has the total package. 
 

 

.

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2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

If that is the case……wouldn’t Phil be clearly ahead of one of Hogan Nelson Snead?  If we are not going by win totals but by best of their era wouldn’t the guy that is clearly #2 in the last quarter century be ahead of the third best guy born in 1912?  Nine of the top 22 on the wins total were born from 1902-1912.  Was there something in the water that decade that made them great golfers or is there possibly another reason or two for their inflated win totals?  Does that not tell anyone else about the relative ease of winning events in that time from starting about 20 years later, say 1922-1950 than it has been for the last quarter century when only three of the top 22 competed?  

Nothing wrong with your making the case for him.  To me, he needed to win more majors because he had the talent to do so.  And... he was in position to do so, but he didn't close on some of those close calls.  What really separates Tiger and Jack from everybody else is that they closed the deal when in position to do it.  Truth be told, Phil has gotten pretty darn close to Hogan, Nelson, and Snead.  If he had 7 majors instead of 5 it would make a big difference.  Nicklaus has 19 second place finishes in majors but they don't count as wins and neither do Phil's. 

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1 minute ago, widow-maker said:

Nothing wrong with your making the case for him.  To me, he needed to win more majors because he had the talent to do so.  And... he was in position to do so, but he didn't close on some of those close calls.  What really separates Tiger and Jack from everybody else is that they closed the deal when in position to do it.  Truth be told, Phil has gotten pretty darn close to Hogan, Nelson, and Snead.  If he had 7 majors instead of 5 it would make a big difference.  Nicklaus has 19 second place finishes in majors but they don't count as wins and neither do Phil's. 

That wasn’t the question. If the numbers don’t matter and the logic is each era gets represented in a top 10 list then Phil is in and one of Hogan  Nelson Snead are out.

  So let’s say you’d have in the top ten…. This is off the top of my head….

Morris Vardon Braid too early in pro golf to count

 

Hagen Jones- makes Sarazen out

 Nelson Hogan -makes Snead out

 Jack Watson makes Arnie and Player out

 Seve Faldo leaves Norman out

 Tiger Phil

 

 That’s a justifiable top ten…two from every loosely defined era.

 

I would have it(best of each era are top 5)

 Woods

 Nicklaus

 Nelson

 Hagen

 Ballesteros

 Jones

 Hogan 

 Phil

 Watson

 Faldo

 

A lot of those spots are interchangeable. Even I succumbed to record numbers bias 6-10.  Jones is too high never playing for pay.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

That wasn’t the question. If the numbers don’t matter and the logic is each era gets represented in a top 10 list then Phil is in and one of Hogan  Nelson Snead are out.

  So let’s say you’d have in the top ten…. This is off the top of my head….

Morris Vardon Braid too early in pro golf to count

 

Hagen Jones- makes Sarazen out

 Nelson Hogan -makes Snead out

 Jack Watson makes Arnie and Player out

 Seve Faldo leaves Norman out

 Tiger Phil

 

 That’s a justifiable top ten…two from every loosely defined era.

 

I would have it(best of each era are top 5)

 Woods

 Nicklaus

 Nelson

 Hagen

 Ballesteros

 Jones

 Hogan 

 Phil

 Watson

 Faldo

 

A lot of those spots are interchangeable. Even I succumbed to record numbers bias 6-10.  Jones is too high never playing for pay.

 

 

 

Funny thing is that’s not my real top 10 list but is only based on two per loosely defined era. I would weigh much more heavily to players of the last 40 years or so.

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TIGER and its not even close. 

3 US Jr Ams in a row (never happening again)

3 US Ams in a row (never happening again)

Tiger Slam + TPC (never happening again)

14/14 winning majors after holding final round lead (never happening again)

All time most wins on PGA Tour (about 10 of Sneads wins shouldn't count)

500 plus weeks at #1

2019 Masters (beats the young guys and puts to rest argument Tiger won with lesser competion)

 

He did all this while being out of commission for about 8-9 years in his prime years. 

 

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PXG 0311 4-PW Precision Rifle 6.0 Stiff
PXG 0311 50 56 60 Rifle Stiff 6.0

PXG Gunboat H

 

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34 minutes ago, mosesgolf said:

TIGER and its not even close. 

3 US Jr Ams in a row (never happening again)

3 US Ams in a row (never happening again)

Tiger Slam + TPC (never happening again)

14/14 winning majors after holding final round lead (never happening again)

All time most wins on PGA Tour (about 10 of Sneads wins shouldn't count)

500 plus weeks at #1

2019 Masters (beats the young guys and puts to rest argument Tiger won with lesser competion)

 

He did all this while being out of commission for about 8-9 years in his prime years. 

 


 

Tiger would do crazy @ss stuff like this all the time. He make total joke of the tour. Wins events at 30% and even 40% stretches of time. Complete domination. 
 

 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, tiderider said:

tiger's "athleticism" is way over-stated ... he was never a 'world class athlete' in any way, shape or form ... and jordan sits on the bench today? ... 

 

Inside The Nba Lol GIF by NBA on TNT

Of course Jordan doesn't ride the bench today because if he were in the NBA he wouldn't be 6'6" 180 when he came into the league...he would be 6'9" 210 and he would be a monster in the NBA but 6'6 180 that can jump is on many  a bench in the NBA right now.  I have seen Tiger in person and he is well put together human being for sure. Unfortunate that his swing early on tore his body to shreds. He isn't a freak athlete but in regards to his peers in his early years he was.  

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15 hours ago, bscinstnct said:


 

Tiger got to #5 in the world from #1200 in the world within less than 2 years.

 

He was 42 years old.

 

Every aspect of his game, perhaps besides his iron game, but certainly including his driving, short game, and putting, were a SHADOW of his skills in his prime.

 

He had no cartilage in his left knee and basically has to swing to protect it.

 

And he had spinal injuries resulting in him not being able to walk, much less play golf, and have multiple surgeries including fusing his spine together with screws.

 

Oh, and he was apparently recovering from being hooked on the drugs he was taking to mitigate all the pain. 
 

Now, winning the Masters was not a “lightning in a bottle” situation. He methodically beat, beat, and beat, pretty much all the “young guns” over the course of a year and a half to rise to #5 in the world.

 

He beat all the top guys at the TC. Then he won the Masters agains the entire planet of the best golfers. 
 

 

So, you sure TW wouldn’t be as dominant against these chumps?

 

Cause TW 1.0 would absolutely beat the crap out of these guys.

 

I can tell you why in simple terms if you’d like to know ; )

I am not sure why I was quoted as I agree with all that you said. Tiger is the GOAT and it's not even close.  My  only debate is that there will be another one day that will take that crown away and that his total accomplishments will be less than Tiger's because the field will have pushed the bar to be dominant even higher so 15 majors simply might not be possible without not just being great, but extremely fortunate.  I do wish Tiger's body hadn't failed him because he lost so much time to injury but to see what he has accomplished yet and still is remarkable. 

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6 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Of course Jordan doesn't ride the bench today because if he were in the NBA he wouldn't be 6'6" 180 when he came into the league...he would be 6'9" 210 and he would be a monster in the NBA but 6'6 180 that can jump is on many  a bench in the NBA right now.  I have seen Tiger in person and he is well put together human being for sure. Unfortunate that his swing early on tore his body to shreds. He isn't a freak athlete but in regards to his peers in his early years he was.  

I can see the extra 30 pounds but how does Jordan gain 3” ?  

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Because MJ's current comp in the NBA, from his own mouth, is Russell Westbrook and he isn't even top ten in the NBA at the current moment so if MJ were to be dominant he would have to be taller and bigger to be inline with the most dominant players in the NBA and they are at least 6'9". I'm talking Lebron and KD level and KD isn't really even in the GOAT conversation and he is ridiculously good. He doesn't shoot or handle the ball as well as Curry so he simply couldn't dominate the league at 6'6" though he could still be very good.  

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43 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

I can see the extra 30 pounds but how does Jordan gain 3” ?  


 

Im not a big nba fan. But I watched a ton of bball when the idiot Knicks vs Bulls those playoff years. 
 

 

I see there’s a ton of analysis range of opinions on how good Jordan would be now. Ranges from he would be nowhere near as dominant to he’d score 50 points a game.

 

But I think this pic sums it up overall. All this superhuman evolution and Jordan still owns the vertical record ; )

 

 

 

 

 

 

D84ADA50-23B6-4472-B654-3C8C0943924D.jpeg

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