Handicapping Matches: Play off the low man?

[MelloYello]

AFAIK, you're not supposed to "play off the low man" and yet virtually everyone seems to do this. 

 

In essence, a 7-vs-3 match is often transformed into a 4-vs-0. Of course, this changes where the strokes are given. Instead of having an advantage on holes 4, 5, 6, and 7, that 1-shot advantage is shifted to holes 1, 2, 3, and 4. 

 

This is a minor difference but it's clearly a real difference. Just wondering if this benefits either player and what you guys think of this. Seems like a pointless modification to me. 

[jvincent]

Actually, you ARE supposed to play off the low man in match play. Where have you heard differently?

[golfandfishing]

33 minutes ago, jvincent said:

Actually, you ARE supposed to play off the low man in match play. Where have you heard differently?

Correct. The 3 is giving the 7 four strokes in match play. The 7 gets his four strokes on the 1,2,3 and 4 handicap holes. 
 

If you are playing stroke play with a component like net skins then everyone can have their pops where they land on the card. 

[MelloYello]

4 hours ago, jvincent said:

Actually, you ARE supposed to play off the low man in match play. Where have you heard differently?

 

Oh, well then I stand corrected! 🙂 Thanks for cluing me in!

 

I remember seeing a video somewhere on YouTube long ago. Guess you can't trust the internet? 

[Ferguson]

13 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

Oh, well then I stand corrected! 🙂 Thanks for cluing me in!

 

I remember seeing a video somewhere on YouTube long ago. Guess you can't trust the internet? 

 

Please share the video.  

 

 

[J_Tizzle]

I still hate this approach in general, or think the number of strokes limited or given at a %.

 

The 64 seed in the NCAA tourney doesn't get spotted points when playing the 1 seed, doing strokes in matchplay is silly.  If the club has enough participation then have different brackets. (sub 5 handicap, 6-15, 15+, etc.).

 

My club does a combined handicap 2-man match play tourney based on the low guy in the group.  We had a match last year where we had to give19 shots to the other team and it took us 20 holes to win the match.  It's very hard to do on our course where the only real hazard are trees, so they just hit a driver wild where ever, punch it out around the green, then if they get up and down its a birdie.  It's very difficult to play in.

[Pepperturbo]

I am often the low index guy.  What ever my course handicap is, others take stroke holes off that number.   Least that's how it's been.   I did play with a group of 20-30 guys and was low handi.  Closest guy was a 8-9.  In that group everyone, including me, took our strokes on the required holes, didn't make a difference, that I recall.  I still won many pots. 

 

Also, I played pvt inter-club team match play for many years.  It's been awhile, but seems as though 98% of my opponents played off my ball too.  The only time that was different was if I was playing against someone with a lower index than mine, then I played off his ball.  However, that didn't get me much to get excited over, so I'd often opt to play even up.  As long as that 1 or 2 strokes wasn't going to make a team difference. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Pepperturbo

[MelloYello]

25 minutes ago, J_Tizzle said:

I still hate this approach in general, or think the number of strokes limited or given at a %.

 

The 64 seed in the NCAA tourney doesn't get spotted points when playing the 1 seed, doing strokes in matchplay is silly.  If the club has enough participation then have different brackets. (sub 5 handicap, 6-15, 15+, etc.).

 

My club does a combined handicap 2-man match play tourney based on the low guy in the group.  We had a match last year where we had to give19 shots to the other team and it took us 20 holes to win the match.  It's very hard to do on our course where the only real hazard are trees, so they just hit a driver wild where ever, punch it out around the green, then if they get up and down its a birdie.  It's very difficult to play in.

 

Yeah, this is just a league play situation where we face off week-to-week in stroke play. So handicaps are involved. 

[MelloYello]

1 hour ago, Ferguson said:

 

Please share the video.  

 

 

 

Something I recall watching a year ago. I'm not searching for it. I remember it was nicely animated though. 

[jvincent]

4 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

Yeah, this is just a league play situation where we face off week-to-week in stroke play. So handicaps are involved. 

 

If it's net stroke play then it's a different scenario.

 

In stroke or stableford then everyone gets strokes on the allocated holes, i.e. you don't play off the low man.

[J_Tizzle]

47 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

Yeah, this is just a league play situation where we face off week-to-week in stroke play. So handicaps are involved. 

 

Thats totally fair, this is like one of the biggest tourneys the club has and goes on for months, so I'm guessing its to give everyone a chance and get the most people involved, which I can appreciate.  I guess at a point I do think they should have an "open" division and then a "championship" division where you play flat footed.  But literally every single thing they do at the club (minus the club championship) is handicapped, and I trust most of the people's handicaps out there about as far as I could throw them.

[StudentGolfer4]

2 hours ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

Thats totally fair, this is like one of the biggest tourneys the club has and goes on for months, so I'm guessing its to give everyone a chance and get the most people involved, which I can appreciate.  I guess at a point I do think they should have an "open" division and then a "championship" division where you play flat footed.  But literally every single thing they do at the club (minus the club championship) is handicapped, and I trust most of the people's handicaps out there about as far as I could throw them.

It seems like this event isn’t to crown the best golfer in the club. That is what the club championship is for. Im guessing this event aims to include a large number of members and give them something to compete for throughout the season. It seems like not trusting their handicaps says more about the members at your club than anything else though. 
 

I will have to see if I can find the Golf Digest article but long story short, the lower handicap wins the large majority of the time. When the difference is 10+ strokes the low guy wins something like 85% of the time iirc. 
 

[sui generis]

10 hours ago, MelloYello said:

AFAIK, you're not supposed to "play off the low man" and yet virtually everyone seems to do this. 

 

In essence, a 7-vs-3 match is often transformed into a 4-vs-0. Of course, this changes where the strokes are given. Instead of having an advantage on holes 4, 5, 6, and 7, that 1-shot advantage is shifted to holes 1, 2, 3, and 4. 

 

This is a minor difference but it's clearly a real difference. Just wondering if this benefits either player and what you guys think of this. Seems like a pointless modification to me. 

 

Your guidance is supplied in Rules of Handicapping, Appendix C.

 

https://www.usga.org/handicapping/roh/2020-rules-of-handicapping.html

 

In general, after handicap allowances have been applied in match play formats, the player with the lowest Playing Handicap plays off zero strokes relative to the other player(s).  The other player(s) receive(s) the difference between their own Playing Handicap and that of the player with the lowest Playing Handicap.

[North Butte]

I'm no fan of USGA or the handicapping system but their advice for allocating handicaps strokes, percentages to use in various formats and so forth is definitely the best way to go. They've looked into all the permutations and over the long haul they know what allocations will produce the fairest competition the most often for golfers with a range of handicaps. 

[J_Tizzle]

2 hours ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

It seems like this event isn’t to crown the best golfer in the club. That is what the club championship is for. Im guessing this event aims to include a large number of members and give them something to compete for throughout the season. It seems like not trusting their handicaps says more about the members at your club than anything else though. 
 

I will have to see if I can find the Golf Digest article but long story short, the lower handicap wins the large majority of the time. When the difference is 10+ strokes the low guy wins something like 85% of the time iirc. 
 

 

100% agree in all honesty.  

 

To me, especially in match play, it needs to be a % of handicap.  Most 15+ handicaps make big numbers  randomly that impact their score (and thats just the loss of a single hole), they'll also make a bunch of bogeys (pars) or pars (birdies).  It just makes a scratch golfer need to play really really well and throw in a lot of natural birdies to stand a chance.  Plus when you base it off the low, lets say a +2 (who is undoubtedly a good golfer) vs a 1, they get 3 strokes, to me that just screams too much.  

[MikeW2]

I have two groups of guys I play most of my rounds with, one high school buddies and one college buddies. I fall into both situations depending on group I’m playing with, HS friends are all scratch or better and I play to a 6. In 30 years I’ve never “felt” completely good about times I’ve won anything because of any strokes I was allotted. Not bad feelings just really not super satisfying. I can also say I’ve never once asked for strokes, it’s usually my partner for the day arguing with our other buddies/opponents for the day because he’s been handicapped being paired up with me (this is both hilarious and hurtful😂). Then when I play with my college friends, their caps range from from 9 to 30. So that we can still have competitive matches we play off of my 6 giving strokes usually at 80% of difference. It drives me NUTS listening post round to how someone “won” they shot 95 net 75 and I shot 80. You won the bet because of a stacked deck you did not win. Whenever I play with this group I tend to focus on playing my buddy who carries the 9 cap and we play straight up. 

[Abh159]

16 hours ago, J_Tizzle said:

To me, especially in match play, it needs to be a % of handicap.  Most 15+ handicaps make big numbers  randomly that impact their score (and thats just the loss of a single hole), they'll also make a bunch of bogeys (pars) or pars (birdies).  It just makes a scratch golfer need to play really really well and throw in a lot of natural birdies to stand a chance.  Plus when you base it off the low, lets say a +2 (who is undoubtedly a good golfer) vs a 1, they get 3 strokes, to me that just screams too much.  

 

I agree with you on this one when it comes to match play. I know the overall data would probably say it evens out, but I've always found in my personal experience that match play favors the higher handicap up to a certain point. 

 

Match play pretty much eliminates the big numbers that cause those high handicappers to have a high handicap. I make a birdie and the high handicapper makes a double bogey and now I'm only 1 hole up instead of 3 shots up. It's much easier for the higher handicap to get that 1 hole back than it is for me to increase my lead.

 

I tend to hover between a +1 - 1 cap depending on the time of year and how much I've been playing. I've played in handicapped matches were I had to give people 5, 10, even 15+ strokes and I had to play my a** off in order to win or even stay competitive in the match. 

 

 

[J_Tizzle]

14 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

 

I agree with you on this one when it comes to match play. I know the overall data would probably say it evens out, but I've always found in my personal experience that match play favors the higher handicap up to a certain point. 

 

Match play pretty much eliminates the big numbers that cause those high handicappers to have a high handicap. I make a birdie and the high handicapper makes a double bogey and now I'm only 1 hole up instead of 3 shots up. It's much easier for the higher handicap to get that 1 hole back than it is for me to increase my lead.

 

I tend to hover between a +1 - 1 cap depending on the time of year and how much I've been playing. I've played in handicapped matches were I had to give people 5, 10, even 15+ strokes and I had to play my a** off in order to win or even stay competitive in the match. 

 

 

 

Exactly. I'm in the same boat, hovering between a +1 and a 3 or so, when people get a stroke on 13-15 holes it can be incredibly tough to stay competitive, especially if there is not a lot of hazards/OB on the course (the case of my home course, there is water in play on 2 holes, OB actually in play on maybe 1-2 holes, the rest is just big trees).

[davep043]

49 minutes ago, Abh159 said:

I've always found in my personal experience that match play favors the higher handicap up to a certain point. 

And yet decades of data indicate just the opposite, that handicapped match play favors the lower handicap player.  Obviously we can only talk in generalities, but generally lower handicappers are more consistent.  Their average net score is closer to their handicap than a more erratic player.  So on an average day, the low handicapper might shoot NET +1, while the high handicapper might shoot NET +2.  That's a small edge for the more consistent player. 

Of course we all remember the one (and only) time we played great and got beat by a high handicapper having a career round.  And its true, a high handicapper CAN go really low (net), again because they're more erratic.  And having lost that one time, despite playing well, we put pressure on ourselves, thinking we have to play GREAT to even have a chance.  But I know if I'm giving someone 8 or 10 strokes, I'm the one with the edge, all I have to do is play my game and eventually I'll win.   

[Mudguard]

9 minutes ago, davep043 said:

And yet decades of data indicate just the opposite, that handicapped match play favors the lower handicap player.

 

This. I've just come through a club event which was handicapped matchplay. And guess what. I was one of the lower markers and I won it. I can see why people get frustrated, a chap I eventually played I had to give 24 shots. I was worried a little as he beat a player with a similar handicap to mine. However when I played him, the longest club in his bag was his 3i. He played very poorly and it was only the par threes where I gave him two shots that he was remotely competitive. 

 

The hardest match I had was against a chap who I gave eight shots, he hit almost no greens but made virtually every putt inside ten feet, oh to putt like that!

I actually quite enjoyed the tournament, I played with a bunch of members I normally wouldn't get to play with and I played well. I guess the thing is, providing someone's handicap is genuine (and I know this is a big issue for those of you in the US), they will eventually show you why they have that handicap. You still have to play your own game.

And yes, the low player went to zero, and higher marker had those strokes removed. 

[sui generis]

19 hours ago, J_Tizzle said:

To me, especially in match play, it needs to be a % of handicap.

 

Do you have data to support your position?

[StudentGolfer4]

The problem with handicapped events is that no decent golfer wants to lose to a leas skilled golfer. It makes it even worse when you score lower than someone and “lose”. A lot of golfers think that if they lose to someone who shot a higher score then the system is the problem. 
 

As pointed out earlier by myself and others, the better golfer (in this case the one with the lower handicap) wins the majority of the time. When the difference in caps gets bigger that turns into the vast majority. 

[J_Tizzle]

16 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

Do you have data to support your position?

 

I mean...  https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/Appendix C Handicap Allowances.htm

 

And I guess just from my personal experience is it makes more sense as others have stated, a 15 handicap makes bogeys for sure, but also doubles, so in just a match play situation it makes sense to not give them the full amount.

[davep043]

9 minutes ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

I mean...  https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/Appendix C Handicap Allowances.htm

 

And I guess just from my personal experience is it makes more sense as others have stated, a 15 handicap makes bogeys for sure, but also doubles, so in just a match play situation it makes sense to not give them the full amount.

You do realize that on the page that you reference, the WHS recommends using 100% of the difference between two players in individual match play.  It also suggests that the lower handicap player receives zero strokes, and the higher receives the difference between the two.  That doesn't exactly support your earlier contention that "To me, especially in match play, it needs to be a % of handicap."

I know a 15 makes mostly bogeys and doubles, a few pars, and a rare birdie.  The +3 makes mostly pars, a few bogeys, a few birdies, and a rare eagle or double.  On the face of it, a stroke a hole seems pretty reasonable.  Anything less would tilt the match even further to the advantage of the better player.

 

[StudentGolfer4]

35 minutes ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

I mean...  https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/Appendix C Handicap Allowances.htm

 

And I guess just from my personal experience is it makes more sense as others have stated, a 15 handicap makes bogeys for sure, but also doubles, so in just a match play situation it makes sense to not give them the full amount.

I’ve yet to hear a good reason why it doesn’t make sense to give them the full amount? A scratch plays a 15. The competition gives them 85%. The scratch loses zero strokes. The 15 now plays to a 13. Before teeing off he has already lost 2 strokes.. (and yes I’m aware this isn’t taking course handicap into account) 

 

 

From my personal experience as a lower cap (2-3) I won the large majority against friends in that 8-12 range. From my current experience as a mid cap (7-9) I lose the large majority of matches against friends in the 0-4 range. 
 

Low caps always seem to remember the one or two matches when the 9 shot 77 and they lost by 4 holes. Rarely do they recall the other matches when the higher guy couldn’t keep it in play and was able to win a couple holes by making bogeys and not playing their best golf. 

[J_Tizzle]

27 minutes ago, StudentGolfer4 said:

I’ve yet to hear a good reason why it doesn’t make sense to give them the full amount? A scratch plays a 15. The competition gives them 85%. The scratch loses zero strokes. The 15 now plays to a 13. Before teeing off he has already lost 2 strokes.. (and yes I’m aware this isn’t taking course handicap into account) 

 

 

From my personal experience as a lower cap (2-3) I won the large majority against friends in that 8-12 range. From my current experience as a mid cap (7-9) I lose the large majority of matches against friends in the 0-4 range. 
 

Low caps always seem to remember the one or two matches when the 9 shot 77 and they lost by 4 holes. Rarely do they recall the other matches when the higher guy couldn’t keep it in play and was able to win a couple holes by making bogeys and not playing their best golf. 

 

So you have no sources but but base your response on personal experience...

 

So like we all are just basing our discussions on our opinions...

[J_Tizzle]

56 minutes ago, davep043 said:

You do realize that on the page that you reference, the WHS recommends using 100% of the difference between two players in individual match play.  It also suggests that the lower handicap player receives zero strokes, and the higher receives the difference between the two.  That doesn't exactly support your earlier contention that "To me, especially in match play, it needs to be a % of handicap."

I know a 15 makes mostly bogeys and doubles, a few pars, and a rare birdie.  The +3 makes mostly pars, a few bogeys, a few birdies, and a rare eagle or double.  On the face of it, a stroke a hole seems pretty reasonable.  Anything less would tilt the match even further to the advantage of the better player.

 

 

My example was mostly based on our 4-ball tournament at my club, so thats what I was referencing.

[davep043]

16 minutes ago, J_Tizzle said:

 

My example was mostly based on our 4-ball tournament at my club, so thats what I was referencing.

In that case I agree.  And that's a new recommendation, for fourball match play they recommended 100% under the previous handicap rules, again stroking off the low handicapper.  Apparently the Ruling Bodies studied these issues, based on millions of scores in the various databases, and revised the recommended allowances to try to be as fair as possible to all players.

[smashdn]

On 6/1/2021 at 8:10 PM, J_Tizzle said:

Most 15+ handicaps make big numbers  randomly that impact their score (and thats just the loss of a single hole), they'll also make a bunch of bogeys (pars) or pars (birdies). 

 

Hey, I resemble that remark.

 

I agree with you.  In match play situations I can hang decent (even straight up provided I am not against a low single digit).  In stroke play I am a mess.

[J_Tizzle]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Hey, I resemble that remark.

 

I agree with you.  In match play situations I can hang decent (even straight up provided I am not against a low single digit).  In stroke play I am a mess.

 

Bingo, thank you for recognizing it.  Thus why I *feel* that in a match play scenario it should not be 100% handicaps.