Early Extension, how to rid myself of it?

[trilerian]

We all know what it is, and as I look through my swings it is obvious that I do it.  But we also know the extension part isn’t bad as it is the outcome of grf.  You pull in the opposite direction of the club head to create speed.  Now anyone who has watched or read enough of Monte’s stuff can tell you that you need to extend in the back swing, flex in transition and extend again.  I think I am not flexing in transition, it looks like my transition move is a forward slide followed by extension.  But the forward slide is me trying to gain leverage on the club, I pull forward away from my hands, then extend and whip the club around, but because I extend without first getting some flexion, I am too tall at impact and have to cast the club otherwise I would miss it.  And one of my biggest misses right now is topping the ball and it goes nowhere.  And that is the second to worse shot in golf, the first being a s*(&^.  So, how do I gain flexion in transition? I know I don’t do it, I slide towards the target.  I know that I need to somehow go down and forward, but I can’t get that feeling.  I will tell you that my slide is not intentional, it is a complete byproduct of trying to swing fast, when I do slow motion practice swings, the slide is not there, it is a natural thing that happens to create speed.  I just need to get my body to go down and forward then extend, but the problem is the flexion.  When I try to gain flexion, even with practice swings, it feels out of sync and weak. 

 

What I need is a movement that is similar to the flexion created in transition that I can use to train myself.  Think about jumping for a minute.  When you jump, do you think about squatting before you jump?  I don’t, it just happens, I think about how high I want to jump and my body reacts.  So I need to figure out what that thing is that will allow me to correctly gain flexion in transition is, so I can extend properly.

 

 

Or maybe I am completely out to lunch here… 

[parmark]

I'll defer to others more knowledgeable here to responsd, but this helped me a bit. I take the medicine ball use it to swing against my shed. not sure it's helped a whole lot yet, but like it a whole lot  better than the chair drill you will hear about.  Good luck

 

 

[leftymatt]

As a precursor to hopefully providing a little direction for you - I'm also on a mission to rid myself of EE. 

 

I really don't want to just send you off to more videos/instruction, but having watched a ton of instruction/tips/etc, for the first time ever, I truly feel like I have an understanding of what movement changes I need to make. What has been eye-opening for me has been Larry Cheung's teachings on using your feet to grip the ground and guide the squat/rotation, especially loading the inside trail foot in the back swing and engaging it in the downswing transition. 

 

When I started off trying to make changes, most of the instruction I watched/read focused on shifting back to lead side in the backswing/transition, re-centering, etc. <--- This is not incorrect and is something that happens, but I've found that for me, focusing on this can absolutely kill my rotation, stall my lower-body, really sets me up for early extension. 

 

If you haven't seen it already, I suggest Larry's stuff on trail foot engagement and the squat/rotation. I think it could give you some feel and perspective on that transition flexion you're after. One thing to note - it may feel very odd incorporating it at first. As I've been missing this in my swing, it has been a very different feel to integrate, but early work is very promising.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdryGXX4HAY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBn7BPDK7Ng

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rvvwiSAOyw

 

 

 

 

[trilerian]

38 minutes ago, leftymatt said:

As a precursor to hopefully providing a little direction for you - I'm also on a mission to rid myself of EE. 

 

I really don't want to just send you off to more videos/instruction, but having watched a ton of instruction/tips/etc, for the first time ever, I truly feel like I have an understanding of what movement changes I need to make. What has been eye-opening for me has been Larry Cheung's teachings on using your feet to grip the ground and guide the squat/rotation, especially loading the inside trail foot in the back swing and engaging it in the downswing transition. 

 

When I started off trying to make changes, most of the instruction I watched/read focused on shifting back to lead side in the backswing/transition, re-centering, etc. <--- This is not incorrect and is something that happens, but I've found that for me, focusing on this can absolutely kill my rotation, stall my lower-body, really sets me up for early extension. 

 

If you haven't seen it already, I suggest Larry's stuff on trail foot engagement and the squat/rotation. I think it could give you some feel and perspective on that transition flexion you're after. One thing to note - it may feel very odd incorporating it at first. As I've been missing this in my swing, it has been a very different feel to integrate, but early work is very promising.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdryGXX4HAY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBn7BPDK7Ng

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rvvwiSAOyw

Those are some interesting videos.  I definitely start by opening my lead knee back up as I collapse it a fair bit in the backswing. 

 

But in general, I don't know.  This one just seems like an impossible task.  

[leekgolf]

2 hours ago, trilerian said:

We all know what it is, and as I look through my swings it is obvious that I do it.  But we also know the extension part isn’t bad as it is the outcome of grf.  You pull in the opposite direction of the club head to create speed.  Now anyone who has watched or read enough of Monte’s stuff can tell you that you need to extend in the back swing, flex in transition and extend again.  I think I am not flexing in transition, it looks like my transition move is a forward slide followed by extension.  But the forward slide is me trying to gain leverage on the club, I pull forward away from my hands, then extend and whip the club around, but because I extend without first getting some flexion, I am too tall at impact and have to cast the club otherwise I would miss it.  And one of my biggest misses right now is topping the ball and it goes nowhere.  And that is the second to worse shot in golf, the first being a s*(&^.  So, how do I gain flexion in transition? I know I don’t do it, I slide towards the target.  I know that I need to somehow go down and forward, but I can’t get that feeling.  I will tell you that my slide is not intentional, it is a complete byproduct of trying to swing fast, when I do slow motion practice swings, the slide is not there, it is a natural thing that happens to create speed.  I just need to get my body to go down and forward then extend, but the problem is the flexion.  When I try to gain flexion, even with practice swings, it feels out of sync and weak. 

 

What I need is a movement that is similar to the flexion created in transition that I can use to train myself.  Think about jumping for a minute.  When you jump, do you think about squatting before you jump?  I don’t, it just happens, I think about how high I want to jump and my body reacts.  So I need to figure out what that thing is that will allow me to correctly gain flexion in transition is, so I can extend properly.

 

 

Or maybe I am completely out to lunch here… 

Early extension is most likely a move you need to make as a result of something that happens much earlier in your golf swing. Most early extenders do it so they can shallow the club in order make contact with the ball. You should post a swing  so someone can maybe point you in the right direction.

[trilerian]

1 minute ago, leekgolf said:

Early extension is most likely a move you need to make as a result of something that happens much earlier in your golf swing. Most early extenders do it so they can shallow the club in order make contact with the ball. You should post a swing  so someone can maybe point you in the right direction.

 

There are a couple of swings in another thread I have.  I start extending as soon as my backswing is finished, during my backswing you can see my head drop just a touch, and then I start extending from there.  Good players keep dropping into transition and don't extend until after they are through the ball.  I am pretty sure (not completely) this is a failure on my part in transition.  I just can't figure out how to flex into the downswing.  

 

I have early extension and a cast, but I don't have those with a weak ball flight that goes nowhere.  My early extension is used to create speed and I have to cast in order to hit the ball.  

[MonteScheinblum]

You EE because you have to.  It starts there.

[phizzy30]

48 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

You EE because you have to.  It starts there.

I've seen your videos on EE.  Very interesting.  Don't most golfers of all levels EE?  I don't think I've ever seen a golfer maintain their spine angle all the way through their swing. 

[enders.seb]

1 hour ago, phizzy30 said:

I've seen your videos on EE.  Very interesting.  Don't most golfers of all levels EE?  I don't think I've ever seen a golfer maintain their spine angle all the way through their swing. 

 

The "Early" here is key. Everyone extends eventually for sure

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, phizzy30 said:

I've seen your videos on EE.  Very interesting.  Don't most golfers of all levels EE?  I don't think I've ever seen a golfer maintain their spine angle all the way through their swing. 

That’s E......you’re supposed to E.

 

EE is what it says.....early.

[MonteScheinblum]

Just now, MonteScheinblum said:

That’s E......you’re supposed to E.

 

EE is what it says.....early.

There’s also staying in flexion too long. You don’t want that eitherThere’s also staying in flexion too long. You don’t want that either

[phizzy30]

1 minute ago, MonteScheinblum said:

That’s E......you’re supposed to E.

 

EE is what it says.....early.

Ah ok.  So extension is fine, but EE isn't? 

[MonteScheinblum]

5 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Ah ok.  So extension is fine, but EE isn't? 

Extension is a good thing and it’s bad if you don’t do it.

 

Start in flexion. Extend, flex, extend.

Edited June 1, 2021 by MonteScheinblum

[Krt22]

3 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

I've seen your videos on EE.  Very interesting.  Don't most golfers of all levels EE?  I don't think I've ever seen a golfer maintain their spine angle all the way through their swing. 

You are not supposed to maintain your spine angle all the way through the swing. Spine angle and inclination towards the ground are two different things. This guy's page is great to visualize how one maintains their inclination to the ground as they extend, turn, and tilt.

 

https://www.instagram.com/mm.golf/

[phizzy30]

30 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

You are not supposed to maintain your spine angle all the way through the swing. Spine angle and inclination towards the ground are two different things. This guy's page is great to visualize how one maintains their inclination to the ground as they extend, turn, and tilt.

 

https://www.instagram.com/mm.golf/

Yes, I know.  I've seen plenty of Monte's videos on youtube.  If golfers maintained their spine angle, they would hit all sorts of bad shots.  Thanks for the link though. 

[trilerian]

I hit 2 buckets on the range tonight and filmed quite a few videos. I will get some here tomorrow. Interesting things. Strong grip was not working for me no matter what I tried. My setup is getting better, at least from my other thread. Without a strong grip, I had a very inside takeaway, I worked on that quite a bit tonight. Also, I have this weird thing I do where I straighten my legs right before I start the back swing. Anyway, the videos tomorrow will be a dtl of a full swing, face on of a full swing, and a face on of trying the ntc drill. 

[tacticalpanda]

I’ve had pretty good success with mine by focusing on getting my right pocket back in the backswing, getting the face of the club more open at the top, and trying to give myself a little more time in transition.  I took a lesson from Monte and it became clear my right hip was out of position the entire swing, and the face was staying too shut from the takeaway.  With these conditions, the EE was an “athletic” saving move to create some loft at impact and keep me from duck hooking every shot.

 

I think Monte 100% has it figured out when he says you EE because you have to.  Some of the fundamentals of your swing are out of whack, and the EE is a subconscious reaction to make the shot somewhat playable.  Not everyone has the same resolution to EE, because the conditions that lead to it are varied.

[trilerian]

Here are some videos...

 

DTL of normal swing

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7MpyPqGLJk

 

DTL of my best swing?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvcEdNUesjk

 

Face on

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqHpkO01Pzg

 

And trying the NTC

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS0Q72M2v-s

[trilerian]

To not take the club back inside felt really weird...  It kind of felt like I was reverse rolling my lead hand on the way back.  Intent was to only push on the club with my lead hand, when I did this right I was able to just lift a bit and complete my wrist set once my club got to parallel.  Just this move by itself, even with my standard ee and cast, created better contact with the ball, more centered strikes and I was carrying my 9i to the 150 sign.  

 

My driver on the other hand, well, 50-60 yd slices.  I was having to aim at the trees on the left to get it to land at the sign furthest right.  

 

Anyway, it looks like from the dtl videos that I am steep.  And even trying the ntc, I steepen just before I swing.  

[MonteScheinblum]

The issue is your left hip and pressure shift.

 

Your left hip pushes away from the target way too much and gets you on the outside of your right foot and gets you stuck on right side. 
 

Then you have to get the shaft too vertical to avoid hitting behind it.

 

That combined with the slide necessary to get left, creates EE.

 

Very common issue.  Most golfers use too much left hip in the backswing;  Most elite golfers move the right hip more.  
 

Some is ok, this is excessive.

Edited June 2, 2021 by MonteScheinblum

[MonteScheinblum]

I forgot to add, the gap between right thumb and forefinger is too big.  That’s another common issue that is a big deal.

 

...check ball position.

Edited June 2, 2021 by MonteScheinblum

[trilerian]

42 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The issue is your left hip and pressure shift.

 

Your left hip pushes away from the target way too much and gets you on the outside of your right foot and gets you stuck on right side. 
 

Then you have to get the shaft too vertical to avoid hitting behind it.

 

That combined with the slide necessary to get left, creates EE.

 

Very common issue.  Most golfers use too much left hip in the backswing;  Most elite golfers move the right hip more.

So I need to reverse the roles of my hips?  Make my right hip move the most, I think I saw this in the efficient swing videos or another one, lol.  Will this help the left knee stop collapsing? Or will it show up some way on video that I can see?  I know you can see it, but how can I tell if I am making progress?

 

 

39 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I forgot to add, the gap between right thumb and forefinger is too big.  That’s another common issue that a big deal.

 

Now that is different!  I try to get my right hand almost on top of the club, maybe I need to make my right hand stronger so the thumb can stay against my forefinger.  What are the swing issues that occur from the gap being too big?

 

EDIT:  The struggle is real with ball position.  I am trying to inch it forward evermore.  

 

 

I'll have a few more range sessions before visiting on Monday, I will definitely work on what you said.

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by trilerian

[jamgam]

4 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The issue is your left hip and pressure shift.

 

Your left hip pushes away from the target way too much and gets you on the outside of your right foot and gets you stuck on right side. 
 

Then you have to get the shaft too vertical to avoid hitting behind it.

 

That combined with the slide necessary to get left, creates EE.

 

Very common issue.  Most golfers use too much left hip in the backswing;  Most elite golfers move the right hip more.  
 

Some is ok, this is excessive.

 

So to ask here.  Is the feeling the front hip stays put in backswing and right hip moves back (and towards target) ?

[dap]

Focusing on minutia won’t fix EE IMO. It should be a dynamic general motion and that motion is squatting as the first move down. It is the opposite of standing up so you need to do the opposite move to stop EE. The transition is counterintuitive to a lot of players. Hogan said we need to do the opposite of what our natural instincts tell us to have the perfect swing.

 

We stand up when we need to squat, we spin our shoulders open too early(OTT) when we need to keep them closed and we release from the top when we need to load and increase lag. All of these moves are counterintuitive during the transition.

[AN1982]

Hey there. I really do not have any professional qualifications to comment however, I’ve been trying to get rid of my EE that creeps up for a while now and looking at your swing and watching your videos and how you EE reminds me somewhat of what I look like in certain instances.
 

Whenever I get quick and rush the transition/downswing, I definitely thrust my pelvis forward and have to stand up through the shot and get super flippy. My quest for trying to maintain and maybe even gain some SS back also hurts in this, as well. The one transition thought/feel or whatever you want to call it that helps me immensely is taken from this video. 
 

The part I really focus on is the squat/flex in transition in conjunction with the visualization of the ball appearing closer. Another plus of the video, whoever this fella is he absolutely pures the ball. Almost an intoxicating sound off the club face.

I combine this feel with setting up an alignment stick a couple inches above my hand at setup and make sure my hand path stays underneath at impact. 
 

I included a couple still shots of my swing, but no video because V1 is extremely lame and I’m refusing to spend the $60, for now, to be able to send out video I took…..
 

 

and finally one at impact whenever I don’t flex/squat and let my pelvis do it’s “dumb thing.”

 

Anyway, give that a try maybe it will help! Look forward to some more discussion on the topic! I know how extremely frustrating EE can be, especially when looking at video. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by AN1982

[trilerian]

The more I am reading about this and the more videos I watch of instruction the more I am coming to the conclusion that the golf swing is more horizontal than I want it to be, lol.  Steep just feels good, feels powerful and horizontal feels flappy.  Which is ironic, since it is the opposite.  This is truly a struggle, but I am determined to stay with it this time.  I will not revert back just because my bad swing is easier right now.  Just remind me of that tomorrow...

[jobin]

Good ole Adam B.   He has never hurt me.  But can he, or anyone, help me? 

 

I'm in a groove started 60 years ago, maintained for 50 yrs and just in the last 10 yrs starting to (try) change.  The books, the vids, the paid pros all can offer ideas but correcting both the body and mind (at age 77) ain't easy.

 

Two days ago i had some good drives, better than average and the last one of the day, perhaps my best drive ever on the final hole.  A terrific shot.  But try to duplicate that the next day....cannot do it.  The body does not remember so i was forced to revert to my old inferior habits, until i can regroove.  

 

Golf is much like learning a language.  Start when 5 years old = perfect and locked-in.  Start when 25 yrs old = very difficult and weakly imbedded.  But worse is start wrongly and continue with crummy accents, bad grammar, poor use of tense...obviously communicating but on a very junior level.

 

I read that Monte corrected the OP's right hand.  The same happened to me last year.  Right thumb and forefinger separated and ill placed.  I fixed that but every time i set up now, i've got to think about it and make it right. 

 

As Percy Boomer said, 'the golf swing is a remembered feel'. 

[trilerian]

Hit a couple of large buckets and walked 9 tonight. The first half a bucket was all thin toe shots. It seems that when I am even partially successful in shallowing, I like to almost miss the ball. So the rest of the time was spent trying to keep my left shoulder down. The only way I was successful doing that was trying to come over the top. For the most part this worked, but the shot shape was a fade. Anyway, I will continue to work on this, but one thing I don’t understand is why I hit the ball so much further with the bad swing. Hopefully distance will increase with practice.

[trilerian]

Omg, I want to pull my hair out!  I had a lesson with Monte on Monday and I hadn't had the chance to get out to the range yet this week.  So last night I went out and was practicing what he wanted me to do.  I setup my camera and went to work...  Couldn't get anything close to what I was doing in the lesson.  It's so hard for me to move the right hip behind me after I put weight on the right foot.  One of two things ends up happening, either I lock out my right leg trying to do it, or my left hip takes over.  I can make the move without a golf club in my hands, but as soon as I get a club in my hands its over.  I don't even have to have a ball in front of me, just having the club in my hands creates a bumbling swing.  

[Mike_C]

On 6/2/2021 at 11:12 AM, MonteScheinblum said:

The issue is your left hip and pressure shift.

 

Your left hip pushes away from the target way too much and gets you on the outside of your right foot and gets you stuck on right side. 
 

Then you have to get the shaft too vertical to avoid hitting behind it.

 

That combined with the slide necessary to get left, creates EE.

 

Very common issue.  Most golfers use too much left hip in the backswing;  Most elite golfers move the right hip more.  
 

Some is ok, this is excessive.

 

I'm no expert, and most of what I have worked on with my EE I have learned from Monte's videos. 

But I see some of my issues here.  As Monte says your left hip is going back, not around, it looks like you are doing what someone disastrously taught me when I was young, rotating around your right leg on the way back, as opposed to around your spine/middle.   Then you do the reverse on the follow through.  The swing is not a slide to the right and rotation around the right leg on the backswing,  and then a slide to the left and then around the left leg on the follow through.   It sort of looks like that, but what is missing is the right hip going away from the line on the backswing, and the left hip going back on the follow through. 

 

This AMG video shows what I think you are doing, the first Am in this video:

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Mike_C