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Early Extension, how to rid myself of it?


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Omg, I want to pull my hair out!  I had a lesson with Monte on Monday and I hadn't had the chance to get out to the range yet this week.  So last night I went out and was practicing what he wanted me to do.  I setup my camera and went to work...  Couldn't get anything close to what I was doing in the lesson.  It's so hard for me to move the right hip behind me after I put weight on the right foot.  One of two things ends up happening, either I lock out my right leg trying to do it, or my left hip takes over.  I can make the move without a golf club in my hands, but as soon as I get a club in my hands its over.  I don't even have to have a ball in front of me, just having the club in my hands creates a bumbling swing.  

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As a precursor to hopefully providing a little direction for you - I'm also on a mission to rid myself of EE.    I really don't want to just send you off to more videos/instruction, but havi

The issue is your left hip and pressure shift.   Your left hip pushes away from the target way too much and gets you on the outside of your right foot and gets you stuck on right side.   

My experience in making changes of this nature is that there is this period of struggle where you do it sometimes but then sometimes not or you come close to doing it - in any case it just doesn't cli

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On 6/2/2021 at 11:12 AM, MonteScheinblum said:

The issue is your left hip and pressure shift.

 

Your left hip pushes away from the target way too much and gets you on the outside of your right foot and gets you stuck on right side. 
 

Then you have to get the shaft too vertical to avoid hitting behind it.

 

That combined with the slide necessary to get left, creates EE.

 

Very common issue.  Most golfers use too much left hip in the backswing;  Most elite golfers move the right hip more.  
 

Some is ok, this is excessive.

034422F2-2618-4915-A5DB-DA95D3DFC736.png

 

I'm no expert, and most of what I have worked on with my EE I have learned from Monte's videos. 


But I see some of my issues here.  As Monte says your left hip is going back, not around, it looks like you are doing what someone disastrously taught me when I was young, rotating around your right leg on the way back, as opposed to around your spine/middle.   Then you do the reverse on the follow through.  The swing is not a slide to the right and rotation around the right leg on the backswing,  and then a slide to the left and then around the left leg on the follow through.   It sort of looks like that, but what is missing is the right hip going away from the line on the backswing, and the left hip going back on the follow through. 

 

This AMG video shows what I think you are doing, the first Am in this video:

 

image.png.5445f5fb9b215dd7b0a1c991f8b8d04b.png

 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, trilerian said:

Omg, I want to pull my hair out!  I had a lesson with Monte on Monday and I hadn't had the chance to get out to the range yet this week.  So last night I went out and was practicing what he wanted me to do.  I setup my camera and went to work...  Couldn't get anything close to what I was doing in the lesson.  It's so hard for me to move the right hip behind me after I put weight on the right foot.  One of two things ends up happening, either I lock out my right leg trying to do it, or my left hip takes over.  I can make the move without a golf club in my hands, but as soon as I get a club in my hands its over.  I don't even have to have a ball in front of me, just having the club in my hands creates a bumbling swing.  

you don't need a range to practice this - nor a club - first order is can you do the motion in golf posture with your arms across your chest, then with arms extended without a club, then add a club, etc     and do them slowly at first - and do this a lot   use feedback - either mirror or film.   can do this around the house, etc.   if you just rely on the range then progress with be slow.    and consider following up with Monte with questions.

 

good visual if you film from back    https://www.instagram.com/p/CKwb40rnf_b/

Edited by glk

 

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12 minutes ago, glk said:

you don't need a range to practice this - nor a club - first order is can you do the motion in golf posture with your arms across your chest, then with arms extended without a club, then add a club, etc     and do them slowly at first - and do this a lot   use feedback - either mirror or film.   can do this around the house, etc.   if you just rely on the range then progress with be slow.    and consider following up with Monte with questions.

 

good visual if you film from back    https://www.instagram.com/p/CKwb40rnf_b/

I practice in my house all the time, lol.  Mirrors are a little scarce though, and I don't setup a camera, guess I'll have to start doing that.  Getting the movement isn't difficult if I just move the right hip back to start with.  It's the weight shift to the right then move the right hip back I have problems with, and when I do manage to do it, I hyper extend my right leg.  

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7 minutes ago, trilerian said:

I practice in my house all the time, lol.  Mirrors are a little scarce though, and I don't setup a camera, guess I'll have to start doing that.  Getting the movement isn't difficult if I just move the right hip back to start with.  It's the weight shift to the right then move the right hip back I have problems with, and when I do manage to do it, I hyper extend my right leg.  

Understand.  Just takes time and lots of slow reps.  Quality over quantity.

 

try just the proper knee/hip action and forget the shift.  Get that pivot good then work on shift.    Chunk the motion up into parts.

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When I work on shift I get a dining room chair, corner of wall, and set up about two fingers from it with my hip - setup with club then shift whole body right and touch the chair/wall with the hip - don’t move the club

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I know as we get older our hips get tight and lose strength, I did a yoga class a couple of years ago, and I still do this exercise a lot, especially for my right/trail leg, it helps with strength and flexability. 

 

 

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On 6/2/2021 at 10:32 AM, Krt22 said:

You are not supposed to maintain your spine angle all the way through the swing. Spine angle and inclination towards the ground are two different things. This guy's page is great to visualize how one maintains their inclination to the ground as they extend, turn, and tilt.

 

https://www.instagram.com/mm.golf/

See, I’m  it so sure about that. If you have the room underneath to drop your arms then there is no need to lose your spine angle. 
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNTEEGt7d3A

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5 hours ago, hack and slash said:

See, I’m  it so sure about that. If you have the room underneath to drop your arms then there is no need to lose your spine angle. 
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNTEEGt7d3A

He didn't maintain his spine angle - his spine went from flexed to extended and then flexed and finally extended - what he did do was replace his forward spine tilt with left side bend and then right side bend - had he maintained his spine angle at address he would have been bent over and looking down through out the swing.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CMhzlUPjtkV/

Edited by glk
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5 minutes ago, hack and slash said:

Maybe we are talking past each other. 
 

Is spine angle not the line drawn along your spine and down your legs?

 

 

And when you say he extends, what segment are you referring to, lumbar, thoracic or cervical?

Spine angle is the angle of your spine.  Not some line drawn on a two d image.    Lumbar and thoracic.     You are literally standing up at the end of your backswing and the spine might even tilt a few degrees toward the target.   This stuff has been measured via 3D.  Amg has plenty of videos on this.


here is someone who didn’t extend enough.    

 

E65511E1-C7E0-4B14-B364-02EB9F8DC95F.jpeg.21222de337da29364179d35aa7f08ff3.jpeg

 

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OP, if it's natural. or comfortable,  for you to have such an active lower body it is possible to work with it and eliminate early extension but obviously some component pieces would have to experience minor retooling.   

 

Have a peek at Bobby Jones' leg movement, it takes inward near rear collapsing to a whole new level, something extraordinary by today's standards.  However if you know how his pieces worked, why not.  You would have to learn how to use the trail side leg as an anchor from the ground up while allowing the club to simultaneously reverse away from the line of flight in transition.  At the moment you're combining active shaft flexing with a loose lower body, not a good combination for making life easier.  

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On 6/12/2021 at 2:54 PM, iSwing said:

OP, if it's natural. or comfortable,  for you to have such an active lower body it is possible to work with it and eliminate early extension but obviously some component pieces would have to experience minor retooling.   

 

Have a peek at Bobby Jones' leg movement, it takes inward near rear collapsing to a whole new level, something extraordinary by today's standards.  However if you know how his pieces worked, why not.  You would have to learn how to use the trail side leg as an anchor from the ground up while allowing the club to simultaneously reverse away from the line of flight in transition.  At the moment you're combining active shaft flexing with a loose lower body, not a good combination for making life easier.  

 

What is "active shaft flexing"?

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31 minutes ago, trilerian said:

 

What is "active shaft flexing"?

 

About 1/2 way down your legs go silent leaving you with nothing left to hit with so you jump at it trying to speed up the shaft.    Your issues come before though, one being straightening both legs to trigger the back move.  Ideally, allowing the club to drop and load via reversing from the ground up keeps slack out of the sequence, that's the goal.    

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56 minutes ago, AN1982 said:

@trilerian, you ever try butt cheeks to the ground in transition? I think there is a top speed golf video on it. Might be another feel you can try out.

 

Right now I am mainly focused on the action Monte gave me to do.  I think I am making some headway, but still have issues transferring weight to the trail leg before pivoting.  Sometimes I feel like, "Hey, that's it".  Then other times I am completely lost.  One of the things that I have noticed is that a strong grip makes getting the trail hip to go back easier vs a neutral grip.  But the strong grip creates problems of its own.  However that is neither here nor there.  Got to get the hips working correctly first.  

Edited by trilerian

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I really, really wish I could make it to one of @MonteScheinblum clinics. I did a couple online lessons and they are fantastic, but I’m sure the benefits of in person learning would be even better. 
 

I play with a strong grip, that gets a bit too strong if I’m not careful. It definitely causes a extreme in to out club path, a hard overcooked pull draw and a driver penalty a round when I get out of sorts. It crazy how much my body reacts to a more neutral grip as well….

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Another way to stop EE is instead of focusing on the hips, focus on the chest/thorax. On the transition coming down, try to feel like the thorax move closer to the ground. Cover the ball or behind the ball( if you tend to come OTT) with your chest is a good image. Players that EE will have their chest move up and away. If your chest moves down you can’t EE. Chest down will facilitate zipper away.

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Major early extender here.  Monte was very helpful to me in my journey.  I'll offer what are hopefully some complimentary thoughts.

 

With my EE I focused a LOT on lower body movements.  Right hip depth and right knee extension in the BS was huge.  It is definitely a core building block.  But it didn't cure it for me alone.  I also needed to learn what to do with that new space being created.  Namely how to add some right side bend and change how my right elbow works in the downswing. 

 

With my old EE pattern I have little right hip depth, so no room.  Right elbow gets stuck behind and fires hard down at the ball.  Firing the right elbow hard requires the shoulders to back away from the ball which marries well with bringing the hips in.  Once you get depth you need to use that space better by getting the right elbow in front of the shirt seem.  The right shoulder moves more down towards the ball and you enter into right side bend.  If you move this way you require the left hip to drive backwards to counter balance.

 

A drill I'm getting a lot of good mileage from is a simple right arm only swing.  I use the left arm to pin the right arm to the chest and feel 'no throw'.  I simply try to pivot with the body.  Here is what that looks like for me.

 

 

A still at impact.  You can see the wrinkles in the blue shirt showing the right side bend.  Plenty of left hip depth.  Hands are forward for shaft lean. 

 

51250151235_67eea481fc_o.jpg

 

My closing thought is that doing this drill really emphasizes a swing based on rotation.  I think that to really fix early extension you need to make a fundamental change to how you power your golf swing.  Like going from a bench press to a hammer throw.  For me this means it is a long and slow process.  It has required some changes in flexibility and building strength in previously unused muscles.  Think months / years instead of days.  Just my $.02, hope that helps.

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6 hours ago, kleydejong said:

Major early extender here.  Monte was very helpful to me in my journey.  I'll offer what are hopefully some complimentary thoughts.

 

With my EE I focused a LOT on lower body movements.  Right hip depth and right knee extension in the BS was huge.  It is definitely a core building block.  But it didn't cure it for me alone.  I also needed to learn what to do with that new space being created.  Namely how to add some right side bend and change how my right elbow works in the downswing. 

 

With my old EE pattern I have little right hip depth, so no room.  Right elbow gets stuck behind and fires hard down at the ball.  Firing the right elbow hard requires the shoulders to back away from the ball which marries well with bringing the hips in.  Once you get depth you need to use that space better by getting the right elbow in front of the shirt seem.  The right shoulder moves more down towards the ball and you enter into right side bend.  If you move this way you require the left hip to drive backwards to counter balance.

 

A drill I'm getting a lot of good mileage from is a simple right arm only swing.  I use the left arm to pin the right arm to the chest and feel 'no throw'.  I simply try to pivot with the body.  Here is what that looks like for me.

 

 

A still at impact.  You can see the wrinkles in the blue shirt showing the right side bend.  Plenty of left hip depth.  Hands are forward for shaft lean. 

 

51250151235_67eea481fc_o.jpg

 

My closing thought is that doing this drill really emphasizes a swing based on rotation.  I think that to really fix early extension you need to make a fundamental change to how you power your golf swing.  Like going from a bench press to a hammer throw.  For me this means it is a long and slow process.  It has required some changes in flexibility and building strength in previously unused muscles.  Think months / years instead of days.  Just my $.02, hope that helps.

Nice drill, thanks!

1 hour ago, moptop said:

A good tip I heard for the hip movement on the back swing is envision you are starting a lawnmower and pulling the string.  You wouldn't want your left hip to shoot out, but you would be pulling your right side back.  

Oddly enough my grip strength and stance width play apart in how my hips move. Strong grip is easier to get the hips to move correctly and a wider stance throws me off balance. So I am still working on the stance width.

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@kleydejong that’s a great drill and your thoughts on thinking months instead of days really hits home. Every time I think I have made some progress after a solid round or good range session, I put some swings on video and I’m back to standing up through swings again…... one question if you don’t mind, is your normal swing plane that flat? 

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I purchased the Monte EE video series and it has changed my thinking about my problem completely. I've tried and tried to keep a constant spine angle throughout my swing and it always results in disaster. Monte's explanation of EE not being the problem but simply a symptom of other issues is bang on. I think I have a little right arm straightening/cast and this causes a bit of EE. My solution is to try to swing around a steady head - I know an old school tip - but it seems to help my issue. From DTL  I still EE a bit but my head is much more level in the backswing and my ball striking has improved. I'm not sure a wee bit of standing up at impact is that terrible of a swing issue.

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10 hours ago, AN1982 said:

@kleydejong that’s a great drill and your thoughts on thinking months instead of days really hits home. Every time I think I have made some progress after a solid round or good range session, I put some swings on video and I’m back to standing up through swings again…... one question if you don’t mind, is your normal swing plane that flat? 

 

No, the drill is a heavy exaggeration.  It creates a really good feel for me and my issues.

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On 6/15/2021 at 12:47 AM, dap said:

Another way to stop EE is instead of focusing on the hips, focus on the chest/thorax. On the transition coming down, try to feel like the thorax move closer to the ground. Cover the ball or behind the ball( if you tend to come OTT) with your chest is a good image. Players that EE will have their chest move up and away. If your chest moves down you can’t EE. Chest down will facilitate zipper away.

 

 

This is bang on, at least for me. I'm a chronic EE'er and have had periods of really solid play over the last handful of years, at least when I was getting regular instruction and knocking down bad habits. 

 

I had a great lesson yesterday and we spent the entire hour focusing on my left shoulder. It was working severely up and out, causing my path to come way from the inside and an impossible swing bottom to time. EE is the only save move from a certain point. When we got to working the left shoulder down, through, and around my left hip, we went to almost zero EE. To do that motion you have to feel the sternum help the shoulder down and through.

 

Seems like a simple drill, but I really needed to learn the proper way to do it again. The improvement in contact is ridiculous.  

 

 

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4 hours ago, GooseHook said:

 

 

This is bang on, at least for me. I'm a chronic EE'er and have had periods of really solid play over the last handful of years, at least when I was getting regular instruction and knocking down bad habits. 

 

I had a great lesson yesterday and we spent the entire hour focusing on my left shoulder. It was working severely up and out, causing my path to come way from the inside and an impossible swing bottom to time. EE is the only save move from a certain point. When we got to working the left shoulder down, through, and around my left hip, we went to almost zero EE. To do that motion you have to feel the sternum help the shoulder down and through.

 

Seems like a simple drill, but I really needed to learn the proper way to do it again. The improvement in contact is ridiculous.  

 

 

I would love for Monte to chime in on this.

 

One thing I have gotten from watching his videos is that the two are connected, you can focus on the shoulders, but you can't get into that good position with the shoulders without the hips working correctly.   The hips and shoulders are tilted, if you turn "flat" with either, it will lead to EE.  Trust me, I know.  I too used to focus on shoulder turn and getting my left shoulder under my chin,  but it would go more back than down, then I would lift my arms, and then, you know the rest.... What is more important is getting the left shoulder under so the plane is more pointing at the ball as in your picture.  But you will have a hard time doing it if your right hip doesn't go back and your left hip isn't also going down somewhat, so that they are going around the tilted plane of your hips/torso.   This is all tied into a proper set up also, not too far from the ball and not too bent over from the start....

 

That's my 2 cents....

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REM   This post is about my round last night, not really about my swing problems.  Detail provided on the bad holes...

 

GOTO TLDR

 

I played a round last night and shot an 87.  Had 9 pars, 4 bogeys, 4 doubles, and 1 triple.  5 GIR, 34 putts.  Greens were a bit slower than normal and I was leaving most putts short.  I did try out @MonteScheinblum "Voodoo" putting.  That was fun.  I told my buddy what I was doing on a 20' putt, said l won't even look at the hole when I start walking to my ball.  Just walked to it, setup and hit the putt.  Missed the putt by a foot.  Unfortunately, this method doesn't work well for longer putts, my guess is you need to be able to see both the hole and the ball in your peripheral vision when your brain is processing the read.  

 

Anyway, I had 4 duffed tee shots (these shots are killing me).  I managed to recover from 2 of them that were both on par 5s, and got pars.  The other 2 led to a double and the triple.  The triple was just ugly.  Duffed tee shot, then tried to cut a hybrid out of the rough and left the face wide open hitting into the trees.  Ball came to rest right against a tree.  Took an unplayable that I had to drop right at the end of the 2 club lengths to get a window to the green.  Pitched a 5i about 125 yds under the trees pin high about 5 yds off the green to the right.  Chipped on and 2 putted for the triple.  Number 1 handicap hole, but really I was done in by my first two shots.  Felt defeated at that point, but somehow managed to forget about it by the next tee.  Next 3 holes I got par, then another double on the number 3 handicap hole.  I'm not even sure what really went wrong here...  The hole plays 360 with a dogleg left.  Left is trees and marshlands.  I generally hit my 2i off the tee trying to draw it just a bit so it lands and rolls to the pin side of the 150 marker.  The perfect tee shot leaves me anywhere between 120 - 140 to the green.  But I hit a straight push off the tee and was out 175 to a front pin.  This is the most difficult green on the course.  The front of it is not so bad, but about 1/3 in it rolls to the back and go go right or left depending on which side of the ridge you are on.  Anyway, I put a bad move on my 6i, and hit a very faint heel shank, just enough to cause that right low flight.  My third shot was about 50 yds to the center, and this is where I drew a blank.  My options where to pitch it short and hope it rolls on to the front flag, or pitch it on the green and most likely roll to the back.  Going with my new mindset I decided being on the green was better than being too short and having to chip again.  I hit a pretty good pitch shot here, landing about 3 foot to the left of the flag, but it rolled all the way to the back of the green.  3 putted for double...  Made par on the next 3 holes, then doubled the last hole.  Hole 9, which was my last hole as I started on the back, is a difficult tee shot.  The hole doglegs left, is uphill and has a big tree on the left corner of the dogleg at 240 yds.  The fairway slopes severely left to right starting at about 220 yds.  Big hitters can just go over the trees to the left, but you need to be about 100' in the air at 240 yds to do it.  Me, yeah, driver gets me into all sorts of trouble on this hole, so I went with my 4w off the tee.  My goal is to be just inside the 150 maker on top of the hill, then hit over the right edge of the tree on the corner.  I pulled my tee shot left, which is fine, but in the rough.  I had to hit over the trees on my second, but that isn't really an issue.  I was 142 to a center pin, but I can't see the green, just the flag.  I'm looking at the trees in front of me and I decided I wanted to play a push draw over the shorter tree to give me room for error on trajectory.  You never know coming out of the rough if you will hit it as high as you want.  I hit my 9i as perfect as I have ever have, but I didn't have enough green to work with left of the flag.  Ended up pin high about 5' in the rough.  The green runs away and the flag was short sided.  Thought about this chip shot for a bit, any shot that lands on the green will run well past the flag.  I needed the shot to land in the fringe to have any prayer at an up and down...  Well, I decided on the green was better than not on the green so I was going to land it on, but my subconscious had other intentions and slowed me down on delivery.  Ball went 2 feet...  Chip the next one on about 20 foot past the hole, 2 putt for double.  On the back (which I played first) there was really only 2 bad holes.  I did duff a drive on 11, but it went about 125 yds straight, then I hit a 4w to about 40 yds and pitched on and 2 putted for par, and I duffed a drive on 15, which also is a par 5.  Also tee shot went about 80 yds, then 4w, 4w left me pin high left.  Chip on and made par.  But hole 13, long par 3 playing 190 to the flag in the front.  Hit a 5i that rolled off the back of the green.  It actually landed just short of the green, but the ground was so hard there was no stopping the ball.  I hit a 4i the other day and landed in the middle and rolled way off the back so figured I would try the 5i yesterday...  Not sure I can confidently try a 6, I think the 5 was the right call.  Anyway, chip on but a mile from the cup and 3 putted.  My last bad hole was 18.  18 is another dogleg left, but no chance at going for the dogleg.  You hit over a grass valley to a pretty big landing area, but from there you hit over the marsh to the green.  To have a reasonable shot at the green you need at least a 180 yd tee shot, the fairway runs out at about 240.  I hit my 4w and left all my weight on my trail leg and the ball went nowhere.  Hit a partial wedge up to the plateau and had 125 to the center of the green left.  My ball was just on the edge of the rough and the flag was in the back.  My intention here was to hit a flighted PW to the center and let it roll to the back.  Hit the shot, but I think I caught a flyer, the ball was flighted low like I wanted, but it landed on the back of the green and bounced over.  Green runs away as usual...  Short sided and downhill, I chipped on about 15' past the hole.  2 putt double.  All in all it wasn't really a bad round.  The tee shots are the most annoying part of it.  I had 10 scramble opps and converted 4 times.  I'd say the duffed tee shots cost me 2 strokes, the hybrid shot cost me a penalty stroke, but most of my lost strokes came from my greenside play.  I had 2 bad long shots other than tee shots.  The one hybrid and the partial 6i shank, the rest of my approach game was fine.  It wasn't perfect, but I was on or near the green in 2 most of the time. 

 

:TLDR

 

Those thin tee shots are killing me!

In the bag

Driver: Taylormade Sim2 Max 9*

4w: Callaway Mavrik Sub Zero

Hybrid:  Apex 19 3h 20*

Irons: Callaway Apex CF 19 4i-AW

W1: Vokey SM7 54* S

W2: Vokey SM8 60* L

Putter: Swag Handsome Too

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