Full Face Vokey... Full Face Irons?

[QuigleyDU]

1 hour ago, gioguy21 said:

ok, pump the brakes a bit. 

it's not a gimmick if you open up the face on your wedges often - open up your lob wedge to about 2 o'clock and see how many grooves are in the path of the strike...

if you did this, you'd know that if you lay the face wide open, there are times when missing it a little higher on the toe and out towards the toe is not uncommon. the Phil wedge had grooves before TM did...well, technically Edel had wedges with the grooves all the way out (in the last 10 years or so that is -- 

they've made them to have a bit more meat at the topline toe, as well as the full face grooves to help with that or for people who hit different types of shot other than stock, aligned perpendicular to target. 

i love hearing 'traditional' discussion -- b/c that means they care more about the looks than performance...

 

Thank you for saying exactly what I was going to say before I could say it.. lol..

 

 

[MPAndreassi]

1 hour ago, lefthack said:

Can someone smarter than me explain how these full face wedges confirm to 2010 grove standards while my KZG blades still don't? I thought it had to do with the surface area of the grooves? 

The big change was to the dimensions of the groove itself. Not the coverage on the face of the club. 

[Ivyguy]

1 hour ago, lefthack said:

Can someone smarter than me explain how these full face wedges confirm to 2010 grove standards while my KZG blades still don't? I thought it had to do with the surface area of the grooves? 

It’s the design of the groove itself, not the length. 

[lefthack]

10 minutes ago, MPAndreassi said:

The big change was to the dimensions of the groove itself. Not the coverage on the face of the club. 

 

I thought it was the overall groove area (length x depth x width). 

 

Still seems like a bunch of crap. 🤣

[puttingmatt]

Its all about choice, for myself I use a 58* full face groove sand wedge. Also very useful around the greens . The grooves add a touch more spin for flop and other shots. Has nothing to do about missing the sweet spot as opening up a wedge geometricly changes club face ball path interaction with the grooves, hence more ball path toward the toe. Full face grooves work, more grooves , allow for more spin. The ball is on the clubface for a very short time and out of a bunker, the ball rides on sand, unless of course you skull it, 

[nostatic]

I've decided I need full face grooves. Now where did I put that Sawzall...

[Duffer222]

Titleist and Titleist fanboys are always the first to call anything “new” a gimmick, and always late to the dance, but let’s be honest, they really only care about selling balls.  The only real club sales that amount to anything are Vokey wedges.  You can bet the farm that within their normal time frame (a year or 2) BV will be asked to create a “new” wedge design that incorporates full face grooves.

They’re slow, not stupid.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Duffer222

[mvhoffman]

I didn't realize that I was going to start such a heated discussion.  I just wondered that since they seem that they are the only ones that havent done it yet, when will they.  I'm not expecting a new wedge or even a high toe, I was wondering if they would just extend the grooves

 

[gioguy21]

1 minute ago, mvhoffman said:

I didn't realize that I was going to start such a heated discussion.  I just wondered that since they seem that they are the only ones that havent done it yet, when will they.  I'm not expecting a new wedge or even a high toe, I was wondering if they would just extend the grooves

 

there's no heat man -- i honestly think it was a decent question to bring up. 

titleist is always late to the party with innovation; they get by on the 'they're not terrible but, they're not awesome either' MO...in this case, the traditional vokey has always sold well so in their eyes, maybe it's a 'why change what's not broken?' mindset...

i would honestly really love a higher lofted vokey with full face grooves (ie 56-60)

[cgasucks]

5 minutes ago, mvhoffman said:

I didn't realize that I was going to start such a heated discussion.  I just wondered that since they seem that they are the only ones that havent done it yet, when will they.  I'm not expecting a new wedge or even a high toe, I was wondering if they would just extend the grooves

 

 

Don't worry.  You didn't do anything wrong.  Your initial post is a very valid question and we just stated our opinions which some other users don't take to kindly to.

[btyh]

4 hours ago, rp4golf said:

 

Hey that's one of titleist best hybrids hands down gimmick or not 

[RogerinNewZealand]

Sant,Santa,ive been Good🤗Can i have the SM10S Full Face 58 please Xmas 23 ..i wont Ho ever again😂for the 588th time...

[Bentron]

I'm not gonna argue whether it is a gimmick or not, it seems like it has some merit but dear lord full face grooves are ugly. 

 

 

[rp4golf]

46 minutes ago, mvhoffman said:

I didn't realize that I was going to start such a heated discussion.  I just wondered that since they seem that they are the only ones that havent done it yet, when will they.  I'm not expecting a new wedge or even a high toe, I was wondering if they would just extend the grooves

 

When I saw your post this morning over coffee I was interested to see where it went, expecting an adult discussion as per the opinions of full-face groove wedge users. And instead of users of Edel wedges, followed up by advocates of users of Callaway PM Grind wedges (modeled after his beloved Eye2 LW), both of which predated TM's HiToes, it instead just turned into tinfoil hats and mud slinging.
And I'm sorry for my part in responding to them.

Realistically, the major manufacturers have R&D departments that are always working on stuff, and when you have specialty wedge designers like Bob Vokey and Roger Cleveland (and others) I'd venture to guess they're also following trends on the market, and these companies are always trying to hit on the next big thing - have they prototyped their own version? Sure. Maybe. Probably. Who knows. Nobody knows.
Will Vokey extend the grooves on a LW?
How long has it been since the SM8s were released?

[RogerinNewZealand]

MarketingMarketingMarketing or Marketing.Thats really what FullFace is about,sell the hype,and yes there is say a 15% benefit in ff design when opening the face a lot.So a big thanks too TM who brought out a Beautiful design in the CopperCoated HiToe.Do most of us need them? not really but a great Xmas Gift idea.Well done TM.

V Steels Rule!

[puttingmatt]

I can say that my hole out frequency from around the green and bunkers have been higher since  placing the hi toe  wedge in my bag. I have had good fortune with standard wedges,  but certainly with more frequency now. These style of wedges deserve your consideration. Have to think that Vokey is looking at a simular design or has considered it.

Edited June 2, 2021 by puttingmatt

[TheBear95]

3 hours ago, mvhoffman said:

I didn't realize that I was going to start such a heated discussion.  I just wondered that since they seem that they are the only ones that havent done it yet, when will they.  I'm not expecting a new wedge or even a high toe, I was wondering if they would just extend the grooves

 

Full face grooved irons are pointless, but the Vokey wedge question is a good one.

 

My guess is that have not had the demand from tour players to go that direction. The amount of Vokey wedges on tour right now is crazy. This is especially true when you look at non-contract players or guys that don't have  a full 14 club deal. It seems most are using Vokey wedges, especially the lob wedge. If the Titleist tour van was getting many requests for full faced wedges, I'm pretty sure they would want to accommodate these players. And of any of the OEMs, Titleist is in the best position to come out with a special wedge release for the customer thru Vokey Wedgeworks and charge a hefty premium for it.

[1puttTUT]

9 hours ago, mvhoffman said:

How long do you think it will be until we see a full face Vokey?  Seems like they are falling behind a bit.

 

What is stopping companies from doing this with irons as well?

 

Being done already by some of the boutique companies...

 

[shoot4par]

7 hours ago, uglande said:

Full face grooves -- another pointless gimmick.

 

It's hard to innovate with wedges at this point, so the OEMs have to make stuff up. Cleveland and others are following TaylorMade's lead -- not because full-face grooves are an actual improvement, but because TaylorMade sold a bunch of them.

 

It's not like full-faced grooves cause any harm, but I don't see how they add any value. And I don' think the cosmetics will fit the eye of most Vokey players, who tend to be more traditional. 

 

Think Callaway did it first with the PM grind. 

[PostandGhost]

I don't even like the look of full face grooves on a hybrid so I won't be a buyer.  However, I'm willing to bet that there is no way Titleist brings a full face groove Vokey wedge to retail before offering it through Wedge Works for special order first.  

[TiScape]

4 hours ago, Duffer222 said:

let’s be honest, they really only care about selling balls.  The only real club sales that amount to anything are Vokey wedges.  

Balls are definitely their bread and butter. But I’m not sure I’d say the only club sales that amount to anything are their wedges. Their putters seem to be as popular, if not more popular than their wedges. Not sure of actual sales, but the TSi (esp the 3) line seem to be quite popular. Probably some fairly healthy sales there as well.

Edited June 2, 2021 by TiScape

[btyh]

45 minutes ago, TiScape said:

Balls are definitely their bread and butter. But I’m not sure I’d say the only club sales that amount to anything are their wedges. Their putters seem to be as popular, if not more popular than their wedges. Not sure of actual sales, but the TSi (esp the 3) line seem to be quite popular. Probably some fairly healthy sales there as well.

Exactly. Titleist isn't late or slouch on tech its just put to use differently. And even with open blade shots on high lofted wedges, toed rough and sand shots still spin well and hold the greens without groves extending towards the toe. I'm assuming the mill lines play a good roll in it and deems it unnecessary to keep traditional looks

[jmorrow020]

I would love to see a full face wedge that doesnt look incredibly ugly behind the ball. 

 

The RTX Fullface sits really weird to my eye behind the ball, as does the PM and the Hi-Toe. too curved of a leading edge and they all look like game improvement wedges or something. I would love to see vokey or any other company literally create the exact same wedge that they already have and just cut the grooves through the whole face without any of the profile changes that occur when they do so. If I could lay my current 60 open and get a little more forgiveness on the toe, that would be great; why not? Is it necessary to create a new line for them? I dont think so. 

[dokodiy]

On 6/2/2021 at 4:13 PM, 1puttTUT said:

 

Being done already by some of the boutique companies...

 

Interesting indeed…

[dmeeksDC]

I don’t see the point. Can’t stand the full face wedges. No interest at all. 

[kuch]

I think there is some legit reasoning when it come to laying the face really wide open but for me the look doesn't fit my eye.  I still like the look of framing the ball with a traditional club face/ grooves.

[ChipNRun]

On 6/2/2021 at 7:12 AM, kuch said:

If you hit the ball that far off of the sweet spot with a Vokey wedge, having grooves across the entire face to still get spin is the least of your problems.

 

Reminds me of when TM came out with the RSi1 and RSi2 irons: Design had polymer desperation slots on the left and right edge of the face grooves.

 

Reality: If you only get half the ball on the clubface, bad things happen. And, the hosel rocket correction factor didn't work either.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by ChipNRun

[hammergolf]

On 6/2/2021 at 6:09 AM, mvhoffman said:

How long do you think it will be until we see a full face Vokey?  Seems like they are falling behind a bit.

 

What is stopping companies from doing this with irons as well?

No, and no....

[justasgood]

On 6/3/2021 at 11:53 PM, dokodiy said:

Interesting indeed…

So SEVEN now has grooves on the upper back toe of their irons? Is this for the occasional opposite hand punch out situations?

[62@Oakmont]

On 6/2/2021 at 3:13 PM, 1puttTUT said:

 

Being done already by some of the boutique companies...

 

Also by Talylormade circa 1999