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Abnormal course conditions on putting green


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15 minutes ago, Quasimoto said:

 

 

 

I get what you are saying, but I think the question is a common one among mid-amateurs. Why does tournament play get special treatment with respect to relief and GUR over the daily player? I have seen this countless times where daily players play out of and over all kinds of crap conditions, just like the pics here detail, and then the day a tourney shows up they are all marked GUR. Hardly equitable rules and conditions.

I agree with you.  Even at my semi-private club (where we happen to have three certified referees), marking is done well for competitions and not at all for general play.  Here, it's the difference between volunteers and staff.  We, as volunteers for the competitions, are prepared to go and mark the course for that competition.  Staff, who are in charge of general play, are not prepared to do that as it is considered an unnecessary expense (even though the volunteers would assist and educate).  It is very annoying to the members, likely less so to those paying green fees - although both groups do notice and comment on the lack of regular markings.

Edited by rogolf
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4 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I agree with you.  Even at my semi-private club (where we happen to have three certified referees), marking is done well for competitions and not at all for general play.  Here, it's the difference between volunteers and staff.  We, as volunteers for the competitions, are prepared to go and mark the course for that competition.  Staff, who are in charge of general play, are not prepared to do that as it is considered an unnecessary expense (even though the volunteers would assist and educate).  It is very annoying to the members, likely less so to those paying green fees - although both groups do notice and comment on the lack of regular markings.

 Guess we will just have to chalk it up to one of the mysteries of management and committees.

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32 minutes ago, Quasimoto said:

 

 

 

I get what you are saying, but I think the question is a common one among mid-amateurs. Why does tournament play get special treatment with respect to relief and GUR over the daily player? I have seen this countless times where daily players play out of and over all kinds of crap conditions, just like the pics here detail, and then the day a tourney shows up they are all marked GUR. Hardly equitable rules and conditions.

Definitely not equitable, but it is the direct consequence of courses accepting players without undertaking the necessary and appropriate marking of the course. Buyer beware - stay away from courses like that which treat the players with such contempt.

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  • 1 month later...

Why do you suggest the video implies the GUR doesn't have to be marked?

 

The artificially surfaced path is an Immovable Obstruction. 

 

Under the 2019 Rules both are defined as an Abnormal Course Conditions.

 

Abnormal Course Condition

An animal hole, ground under repair, an immovable obstruction or temporary water.

Edited by Newby
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3 minutes ago, Newby said:

Why do you suggest the video implies the GUR doesn't have to be marked?

 

The artificially surfaced path is an Immovable Obstruction. 

 

Under the 2019 Rules both are defined as an Abnormal Course Conditions.

 

Abnormal Course Condition

An animal hole, ground under repair, an immovable obstruction or temporary water.


Agreed, if it’s abnormal it’s because it’s path.  Weirdly ambiguous example for the USGA to include in a basic rules video though, no?  It’s almost impossible to tell whether that is artificially surfaced or just worn down from heavy traffic off the actual path?  

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I agree with Jimbo.

A poor example by the USGA to show what may be only a bare patch and bare patches by themselves are not automatically Gur.

 

However this area  may have been properly identified by the Competition local rules - marking with a white line may be preferable but many clubs do not want white paint all over their course.

 

Edited by limegreengent
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This is another example where the official rules fail to account for the simple fact that not every course has an active "committee" that reviews the questionable course areas on a daily basis.

 

Those greens look terrible.  If I came across one green like that on a course I could excuse it but if they all look similar, yikes man play a different course.

 

I play in a weekly wolf game with 3 close friends and we made up our own rule we call PGA conditions.  If we come across something that you'd never see a PGA player have to play from in a real tournament (like that green or obvious area under repair that isn't marked) then you get free relief no closer to the hole.

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2 hours ago, abenjami said:

This is another example where the official rules fail to account for the simple fact that not every course has an active "committee" that reviews the questionable course areas on a daily basis.

 

Rules fail ??

 

The Rules say 'play the ball as it lies'. They do not say 'play the ball from a spot that satisfies you with no penalty'. 

 

Sometimes you get a good lie and sometimes you get a bad lie. Tough life. Whether a spot is marked GUR or not it is the same for everybody. It cannot be a Rules problem if the course management does not want to give the players what they are paying for.

 

Someone mentioned intent and declares he will treat a spot as GUR if he wants (and has no problems in posting the score). In my experience people have very different 'intents'. Also the vast majority of golf players do not even know the intent of each Rule so it would be impossible to let each player decide which areas to treat as GUR and which not.

 

Play the ball as it lies. Very simple. If you cannot do that, take a penalty.

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1 minute ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Rules fail ??

 

The Rules say 'play the ball as it lies'. They do not say 'play the ball from a spot that satisfies you with no penalty'. 

 

Sometimes you get a good lie and sometimes you get a bad lie. Tough life. Whether a spot is marked GUR or not it is the same for everybody. It cannot be a Rules problem if the course management does not want to give the players what they are paying for.

 

Someone mentioned intent and declares he will treat a spot as GUR if he wants (and has no problems in posting the score). In my experience people have very different 'intents'. Also the vast majority of golf players do not even know the intent of each Rule so it would be impossible to let each player decide which areas to treat as GUR and which not.

 

Play the ball as it lies. Very simple. If you cannot do that, take a penalty.

I don't disagree with you but the part I put in bold is the issue.

 

Sure, on that particular course on that particular day it's the same for everybody.

 

But show me a time guys on tour have to deal with greens like in the OP?  You can't.  Similarly, I am sure you have been out on a course before where there's clearly a spot in the middle of a fairway that no question is ground under repair but it's not marked because the course is lazy.

 

We all use a handicap system that compares us to the best golfers in the world playing courses in pristine conditions, yet most of us don't get the benefit of pristine conditions nearly as often.

 

I'm not at all suggesting people should get relief from normal bad lies.  I'm just saying if it's clearly an unfair lie that would be marked in tournament play, then play it that way.

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2 minutes ago, abenjami said:

I don't disagree with you but the part I put in bold is the issue.

 

Sure, on that particular course on that particular day it's the same for everybody.

 

But show me a time guys on tour have to deal with greens like in the OP?  You can't.  Similarly, I am sure you have been out on a course before where there's clearly a spot in the middle of a fairway that no question is ground under repair but it's not marked because the course is lazy.

 

We all use a handicap system that compares us to the best golfers in the world playing courses in pristine conditions, yet most of us don't get the benefit of pristine conditions nearly as often.

 

I'm not at all suggesting people should get relief from normal bad lies.  I'm just saying if it's clearly an unfair lie that would be marked in tournament play, then play it that way.

 

When the Committee marks the course it tries to make it fair to play. In top competitions the players play for the spectators and the spectators want to see good scores. Creating pristine conditions promote making good scores and that is what it is all about. As a leisure golfer you simply cannot expect same kind of treatment. Unless you want to invest a lot of money for that and hire a person on your course to do the markings. Good luck 😉

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6 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

When the Committee marks the course it tries to make it fair to play. In top competitions the players play for the spectators and the spectators want to see good scores. Creating pristine conditions promote making good scores and that is what it is all about. As a leisure golfer you simply cannot expect same kind of treatment. Unless you want to invest a lot of money for that and hire a person on your course to do the markings. Good luck 😉

Oh, I don't expect the same kind of treatment, especially when playing on a public course.

 

All I'm saying is us public course playing golfers should give ourselves an equal playing field.

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Just now, abenjami said:

Oh, I don't expect the same kind of treatment, especially when playing on a public course.

 

All I'm saying is us public course playing golfers should give ourselves an equal playing field.

But the rules don't make provision to do that. They do say however, play the course as you find it.

 

If you are playing in a tournament/competition are you suggesting that each competitor decides what is and what isn't GUR?

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24 minutes ago, Newby said:

But the rules don't make provision to do that. They do say however, play the course as you find it.

 

If you are playing in a tournament/competition are you suggesting that each competitor decides what is and what isn't GUR?

No.  I'm only talking about regular day to day play.  I think obviously in a tournament or competition everyone has to play it the same and just hope course management actually took a look at the playing conditions and marked what needed to be market ahead of time (unlikely).

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1 hour ago, abenjami said:

No.  I'm only talking about regular day to day play.  I think obviously in a tournament or competition everyone has to play it the same and just hope course management actually took a look at the playing conditions and marked what needed to be market ahead of time (unlikely).

Given that General Play rounds are a fundamental part of WHS then all should play according to the course as marked and any legitimate local rules. My course's green keepers maintain the course in the same way regardless of what is scheduled for that day. Members expect the conditions but not necessarily the set up to be consistent.

 

That is what we, visitors and the public pay for.

Edited by Newby
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On 6/4/2021 at 2:29 PM, Sawgrass said:

I suspect everyone will agree with you that these conditions are abnormal, but not abnormal as per the rules of golf definition, which would require the committee to call them ground under repair to qualify. Here’s the definition:

 

Abnormal Course Condition

Any of these four defined conditions:

 

 

The committee is the group in charge of the course in general, or in charge of a formal competition. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Deem yourself as the "committee" and make it GUR.

 

Just curious on your mindset: What percentage of public golf courses in the US do you think mark GUR for regular play?

Edited by larrybud
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3 hours ago, larrybud said:

 

 

1) Deem yourself as the "committee" and make it GUR.

 

2) Just curious on your mindset: What percentage of public golf courses in the US do you think mark GUR for regular play?

 

1) Personally I find that practice absurd. How 'equal' a course or comparable the results can be if everyone can decide where to get a free relief? How can you compare posted scores if the criteria of play has been different? Simply idiotic, IMHO.

 

2) Never been on a US public course but I can see a relatively simple solution that could easily be used by all of those courses. Draft a Local Rule allowing LC&P in all of the General Area. That should suffice.

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If it’s just you and your son having fun then do whatever you want.  For me, since I keep a handicap that is used in some tournaments and in cash games, I would play it from those positions.  I would never sandbag but I’m also not trying to create situations that help me score better/hurt me when I play competitively.  Not doing so is basically hurting yourself when you play the next tournament or compare handicaps to decide how many strokes is given in a cash game.  If you do t play those sort of things but just keep a handicap for your own interest then I suppose it doesn’t truly matter how you want to handle this.  Purist might argue it still matters and play it how it lies, but whatever.

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38 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

1) Personally I find that practice absurd. How 'equal' a course or comparable the results can be if everyone can decide where to get a free relief? How can you compare posted scores if the criteria of play has been different? Simply idiotic, IMHO.

 

2) Never been on a US public course but I can see a relatively simple solution that could easily be used by all of those courses. Draft a Local Rule allowing LC&P in all of the General Area. That should suffice.

Who would draft this local rule you propose?  

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10 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I am rather confident that a public course has at least one piece of personnel. And the Model Local Rule is found from the internet.

 

Anything else you want to know? 🤔

Your snide ignorance is astounding.  Unless there is a tournament, no one at the muni courses I play cares what you do regarding local rules and isn't going to tell you what to do.  

 

 

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On 6/9/2021 at 10:22 PM, antip said:

Definitely not equitable, but it is the direct consequence of courses accepting players without undertaking the necessary and appropriate marking of the course. Buyer beware - stay away from courses like that which treat the players with such contempt.

 

In fairness, unless its a course that gets a lot of visiting play as the bulk of its play, the locals generally know the course well enough to not need some of the more extreme marking that goes on with what happens on TV. Sufficient staking  is all that is required in most situations, the OP situation would receive a lot of grumbling if stakes were used to mark GUR on the green...Penalty areas doesnt need to be marked generally though staking/painting does help when theres areas where the natural break of the ground into the water based PA's occur.

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9 hours ago, Newby said:

Given that General Play rounds are a fundamental part of WHS then all should play according to the course as marked and any legitimate local rules. My course's green keepers maintain the course in the same way regardless of what is scheduled for that day. Members expect the conditions but not necessarily the set up to be consistent.

 

That is what we, visitors and the public pay for.

 

Sure but you're missing what I'm saying.  Your course might be great at marking ground under repair on a daily basis.  Another course might never do it.  And that creates a difference between players who are able to play courses that are managed properly and those who don't have that available to them.

 

There is no perfect system and the WHS has its flaws even if everyone was playing the same course the same way.

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15 hours ago, abenjami said:

 

Or when there is no Committee at some courses...

 

That would indeed be a bizarre situation, I must say. Every single golf course in the world has employees who carry the responsibility of managing the course. So there are people who SHOULD carry out the tasks of a Committee. If they fail to do that you just need to play the course as you find it with Local Rules available, if any. Forming your own Committee in your group means you are playing by Rules you find suitable for YOU, and that is just beyond my imagination. Does not happen around here, at least among the honest golfers. If there is no LC&P in force we play the ball down, even when we think there should be one in force.

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21 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

2) Never been on a US public course but I can see a relatively simple solution that could easily be used by all of those courses. Draft a Local Rule allowing LC&P in all of the General Area. That should suffice.

 

The problem is, the course then has to publicly admit it's not in great shape and/or is too lazy to mark and remark GIR every few days. Most of this will remain GIR for years.

 

There's a course I play that has poor drainage around a greenside cart path. The soil is all but eroded away from the water and is grassless from people leaving the green. It has been that way since at least 2002 and is marked as GIR for every tournament since then. But outside of tournaments, its never marked as GIR. Every member plays it as GIR year round, but how would a player who never golfs in tournaments know that? 

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At my course there's a hole with some issues since trees are too near the green and they drain most of the water and there's longer than usual periods of shade.  Sometimes the Committee has to use a local rule that allows players to improve their line of play through replacing the ball in the nearest spot and never closer to the hole.  

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On 7/26/2021 at 5:41 AM, Mr. Bean said:

 

That would indeed be a bizarre situation, I must say. Every single golf course in the world has employees who carry the responsibility of managing the course. So there are people who SHOULD carry out the tasks of a Committee. If they fail to do that you just need to play the course as you find it with Local Rules available, if any. Forming your own Committee in your group means you are playing by Rules you find suitable for YOU, and that is just beyond my imagination. Does not happen around here, at least among the honest golfers. If there is no LC&P in force we play the ball down, even when we think there should be one in force.

 

That's the problem with many courses around here.  Even if they actually have an official committee (or employee) who is supposed to carry that responsibility, it isn't performed.

 

I'm not suggesting any significant alterations to the rules or anything.  Just saying if you are playing a course where it's clearly not being managed, I don't have a problem with someone doing LC&P on a muddy day or taking free relief from something that is very obviously ground under repair that hasn't been marked because the course doesn't mark anything.

 

It's becoming more and more of a problem with the game in general at public courses IMO.  More and more services are being cut due to financial reasons to squeeze more profits.

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