Most forgiving persimmon era driver?

[Daeldalus]

What is thought to be the most forgiving driver of the persimmon era?

 

Has anyone ever done the math to figure out MOI numbers for any of them? 

 

Wilson whale? Larger head plus carbon construction seems like a good candidate. 

Maybe the Wood Bros Corker? 

[twidener]

I don't think there was a forgiving driver in the persimmon era. The Corker came at the end of the era and I guess you could say it was a little more forgiving than the standard size persimmon driver. The thing with persimmon was that each head was different. Each head had its own characteristics. For example, you could have bought ten new Wood Brothers Texans and though each was hand made they would all have a different feel. You could buy a driver with a perfect grain and shape but the first time you hit it if the feel was not right, there was nothing that could be done to that driver to make it feel better to you. That's why when you found the right persimmon driver for you, it would stay in the bag for years. But I was always on the lookout for the "perfect" one.

[MrFlipper]

1 hour ago, twidener said:

I don't think there was a forgiving driver in the persimmon era. The Corker came at the end of the era and I guess you could say it was a little more forgiving than the standard size persimmon driver. The thing with persimmon was that each head was different. Each head had its own characteristics. For example, you could have bought ten new Wood Brothers Texans and though each was hand made they would all have a different feel. You could buy a driver with a perfect grain and shape but the first time you hit it if the feel was not right, there was nothing that could be done to that driver to make it feel better to you. That's why when you found the right persimmon driver for you, it would stay in the bag for years. But I was always on the lookout for the "perfect" one.

 

The last two sentences brought back some marginal memories. I did find 2 special persimmon drivers, a 50's golfcraft dick mayer 2 wood and a pga tommy armour. The dick mayer was my favorite, but I heeled shots back then and it got neck cracks. I was told one more bad heel and it would blow up. It got retired mid 70's, still have it, still swing it but will never hit it.

 

Persimmon woods were so unique. When you lost one that fit you, it was like a death in the family. I have a matching dick mayer 3 wood that I carried until metal woods came on. Still haven't really found a metal wood like it. It is retired also. I take it out and look at it from time to time as well. Lots of memories. Boy, what an old geezer I am lol

[Daeldalus]

This is really interesting. All the club makers these days are all about stats, numbers, and science. A very cold and analytical approach. But here I find talk of clubs being special, members of family even. 

 

This is certainly not what I was expecting from this thread but it does show one of things that I am coming to love about vintage golf. It was an era that was less about physics and more about the soul of the game. 

[twidener]

You're right. That era was more about the soul of the game. I still have all of my persimmon woods that were "players". Each one is a piece of art. There were certain things that I looked for in any persimmon driver. I liked a flat lie, the toe had to appear open, nice bulge and roll and a nice looking grain. I liked the old True Temper Dynamic S shaft, a True Temper TTW shaft or a S300 with a full cord grip. I have an old Toney Penna from my college days, a 693 and a Wood Brothers Texan that are my three favorites. I've spoken with Dave Woods a few times, not so much about clubs but about how different it was playing back in the 60's and 70's. Dave is an artist and I'm an artist so conversations tend to be more about the artistic aspect of golf. The sound of a balata ball that was well struck with a persimmon was so distinctive. And the sound of steel spikes on the cart path pavement. Hearing that clicking sound walking to the first tee, especially in a tournament, meant it was time to focus and play.

[cold_war_era_golfer]

Isn’t half the fun of persimmons being that they are not forgiving?

[Daeldalus]

2 hours ago, cold_war_era_golfer said:

Isn’t half the fun of persimmons being that they are not forgiving?

Maybe for us now. But back then? Us golfers have always looked for any edge we could get. If there was a club that was demonstrably more forgiving, people would have flocked to it. 

[tatertot]

Part of the allure of metal woods was the consistency ... 2 persimmon (or laminated) woods could come off the line right after each other and be different. The grain, the wood density, they were just different. They were unique. Once you found one, you held on to it. And "forgiving" wasn't a word we used for them.

[Daeldalus]

41 minutes ago, tatertot said:

Part of the allure of metal woods was the consistency ... 2 persimmon (or laminated) woods could come off the line right after each other and be different. The grain, the wood density, they were just different. They were unique. Once you found one, you held on to it. And "forgiving" wasn't a word we used for them.

For sure the wood itself causes some variation in each club but the design of the club is still gonna be the largest part of how it performs. The soleplate, backweighting, cg location, and head size all matter a lot. A badly designed club will always be worse than well designed club no matter the quality difference of the wood. 

 

Sure forgiving wasn't a term that was used back then but the concept was familiar to the industry. A more stable club is a better club and better clubs sell more. 

[Stephen8802]

I think both bulge and roll and head depth had a lot to do with it, but it depended on the swing. There were certain clubs I just couldn't hit, and some that (mostly) kept it in play. I found a deep face with a lot of bulge and roll was the most forgiving for me.

 

[The Aspidistra in the Hall]

There was often a reason why some beautiful original drivers from that period remain. and are offered for sale.

No-one could hit them.

[OldTom]

A few of us guys play a couple of rounds a year with  "wood" and blades. I supply the woods and everybody dives for a ping laminate. It goes great. Not persimmon but is wood.

[elwhippy]

Friendly Persimmon? Hmmm. Over to you Mr Holmes. 

 

I would seek out a model with at least 11 degrees of loft, a shallower face and a helpful shaft flex. Some less expensive makers and models might actually help you.

[Daeldalus]

1 hour ago, elwhippy said:

Friendly Persimmon? Hmmm. Over to you Mr Holmes. 

 

I would seek out a model with at least 11 degrees of loft, a shallower face and a helpful shaft flex. Some less expensive makers and models might actually help you.

What's the thinking behind a shallow face? Greater percentage of weight on the perimeter?

[xgolfx]

Too bad that most of thegolfwrx cogniscenti have never experienced hitting a balata ball with a persimmon  driver. A skilled player could play shots which  cannot be executed with metal woods. The quail high four wood  , a Jimmy Demaret specialty was an example. Drivers off the deck, hold up shots. Sam Snead would notice a rookie taking notice of his club selection and hit a spoon on a 175 yard par three . He would watch the rookie fly the green using the same club. 
Hogan would not put a club in play until he hit  1000 shots with it. Some tour players change wedges  monthly because they think the grooves are worn out.  
 

CHARLEY PENNA

[xgolfx]

17 hours ago, Stephen8802 said:

I think both bulge and roll and head depth had a lot to do with it, but it depended on the swing. There were certain clubs I just couldn't hit, and some that (mostly) kept it in play. I found a deep face with a lot of bulge and roll was the most forgiving for me.

 

 

[xgolfx]

You are a good example of a persimmon player who was helped by design. 
Bulge and roll made it  easier to get the ball airborne. Today’s metal woods lack the shaft head relationship and bulge and roll of persimmon. In  my opinion  the ball and shaft , not the head, are responsible for today’s length.

 

CHARLEY PENNA

[PJE]

On 6/6/2021 at 7:28 AM, twidener said:

You could buy a driver with a perfect grain and shape but the first time you hit it if the feel was not right, there was nothing that could be done to that driver to make it feel better to you. That's why when you found the right persimmon driver for you, it would stay in the bag for years. But I was always on the lookout for the "perfect" one.

I don't think any persimmon driver could be considered "forgiving". The old term, "hit it on the screws", came about precisely because these clubs were not forgiving. As twidener very accurately pointed out, all of these drivers were unique.

The only things that were moderately forgiving were the Ping laminated woods and they were ugly.  Lots of people wouldn't play them because they were so ugly.

The lack of forgiveness and variability in persimmon clubs is precisely what made the Big Bertha driver revolutionary.  For most people, the Big Bertha's performance was astounding. I still remember the first round I played with it. 

My persimmon driver went into the garage after I acquired a Bertha and it and never re-emerged.  

[RobotDoctor]

I have hit several of these drivers, gamed a Cleveland Classic DG43 driver in this bag for 2 years before I put a MacGregor Toney Penna TP Special driver in my bag.  I could really hit the ball well with that one!!!  Persimmon woods forced a golfer to hone their swings to hit well.  My swing was tighter 30 years ago.  I was also younger, thinner and more flexible back then.  I could rotate my back beyond 90 degrees, more like 100 degrees and hip turn was around 45 to 50 degrees.  That resulted in a high swing speed but my contact was always within the insert.  That equates to hitting a Titleist balata ball a long way.  

Edited June 8, 2021 by RobotDoctor

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

On 6/7/2021 at 6:58 AM, cold_war_era_golfer said:

Isn’t half the fun of persimmons being that they are not forgiving?

Definitely now. It makes the tee shot part of the game a lot more challenging, in a good way. That said....

 

On 6/7/2021 at 9:55 AM, Daeldalus said:

Maybe for us now. But back then? Us golfers have always looked for any edge we could get. If there was a club that was demonstrably more forgiving, people would have flocked to it. 

...this is also very true. When EYE2 irons came out people flocked to them because they were easier to hit.

 

 

18 hours ago, The Aspidistra in the Hall said:

There was often a reason why some beautiful original drivers from that period remain. and are offered for sale.

No-one could hit them.

I think I have a couple of drivers like that in my collection. I need to sell them!

[LeoLeo99]

Maybe it was me or the weed I smoked but I don't recall anyone every saying "forgiveness" when talking about woods back then.  I remember buying a persimmon driver from my junior high vice principal at a yard sale.  The insert was fine but there were deep gouges and dents on both sides of the insert.  Funny thing, it you hit the ball with the insert it went straight and far.  Longer than my Hogan Speed-slot driver.  But if you hit off the heel or toe, you were hitting in the dented areas and it was a big unpredictable where the ball would go.  

[elwhippy]

Or go with a 2 wood. I believe the late, great, Peter Thompson's driver was a 2 wood with 12 degrees and a driver shaft. 

[Swingingk]

On 6/6/2021 at 6:55 PM, Daeldalus said:

Maybe for us now. But back then? Us golfers have always looked for any edge we could get. If there was a club that was demonstrably more forgiving, people would have flocked to it. 

My favorite GolfWRX quote ever (author forgotten now) is "Forgiveness is something you get in church."  😆

I may be wrong here but I think that back in the day golfers cared less about how fancy and expensive their equipment was and more about how well they used it.  

[dcopp7]

Golf back then was more beautiful.  Effortless swings with the appropriate club.  They didn't need to bomb it and gouge it.  They were content with 240yd drives and a mid iron in.  Now players are pissed off if they have anything but a PW or LW after their drive.  I have been watching old US Open's on the USGA app and the putting is what is hilarious to me.  Everything was a pop stroke with such force driven into the ball and nearly ZERO follow through.  All with tiny blade putters with either chrome or brass.

[elwhippy]

Would love to know how fast, or slow. the older tour greens were. I reckon 8 or 9 at the max. 

[twidener]

I've played Southern Hills in Tulsa a few times back in the early and mid'70's and the greens were bent grass and very fast. Whenever they held a major championship the downhill putts could be brutal. I played an Open qualifier there one year and the course was playing like it normally did for members and you had to be careful on a two foot putt. I missed a couple that day and had three or four footers coming back. Lots of downhill and sidehill putts.

I did play a couple of Publinx Championships back then and the USGA set up those courses. Those greens were fast but still playable. I watched the Senior PGA Championship a couple of weeks ago at Southern Hills and the speed was about the same as when I played there.

[Kirasdad]

As someone mentioned earlier, the 2 wood was the forgiving driver, although no one ever said “forgiving”. They would say things like “gets a little more air under the ball” or “easier off the deck”. It was a feel game back in the day. I play old stuff all the time both persimmon and hickory, super fun, but you need the course and the yardage to really enjoy it. Old traditional parkland layouts are the best bet since there’s not much links golf in the US. You get on a 90’s/2000ish target course and the fun quotient goes way down.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

5 hours ago, Kirasdad said:

As someone mentioned earlier, the 2 wood was the forgiving driver, although no one ever said “forgiving”. They would say things like “gets a little more air under the ball” or “easier off the deck”. It was a feel game back in the day. I play old stuff all the time both persimmon and hickory, super fun, but you need the course and the yardage to really enjoy it. Old traditional parkland layouts are the best bet since there’s not much links golf in the US. You get on a 90’s/2000ish target course and the fun quotient goes way down.

 

Definitely agree with you about picking the right course. Also, anywhere with lots of forced carries is also not great for classic golf.

[fluffy265]

It's funny, " forgiving" isn't really a term you hear much when talking persimmon.

But If the OP is looking to start playing Persimmon. My 1st recommendation would be H&B / Powerbilt.

Why? Simply because I've never come across a Powerbilt I couldn't hit. In my experience they consistently produced very playable woods throughout the years.

 

my 2cents

 

J

 

 

 

[Daeldalus]

On 6/16/2021 at 6:09 AM, fluffy265 said:

It's funny, " forgiving" isn't really a term you hear much when talking persimmon.

But If the OP is looking to start playing Persimmon. My 1st recommendation would be H&B / Powerbilt.

Why? Simply because I've never come across a Powerbilt I couldn't hit. In my experience they consistently produced very playable woods throughout the years.

 

my 2cents

 

J

 

 

 

You know it is funny. I bought my first vintage set without thinking about brands or playability or anything like that. And. I just so happened to buy a full set of powerbilt citations. 

 

They hit great and I really like them