Asked to move ball not on green

[nsxguy]

11 minutes ago, NJBigFish22 said:

Wow, I was just picking a number, as an example, not an actual rule.  Stating that rule books for all sports should be streamlined down to the basics, not multiple subsections.

 

The rule books of EVERY sport have to cover every possible situation that comes up - else what do they do when one ISN'T covered by a "simple" rule.

 

Have you ever tried to go through the rule books of MLB ? NBA ? NFL ? NHL ?

 

 

[NJBigFish22]

1 hour ago, SNIPERBBB said:

The rules in most books aren't that hard, except maybe NBA and college/pro football. Once you understand the basics, it makes everything else easier. 

 

 

43 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

The rule books of EVERY sport have to cover every possible situation that comes up - else what do they do when one ISN'T covered by a "simple" rule.

 

Have you ever tried to go through the rule books of MLB ? NBA ? NFL ? NHL ?

 

 

This is the last comment I am going to make on this, for no other reason than my opinion is my opinion and your opinions are yours.  I don’t disagree that the rules aren’t important and should be known, and in tournament play need to cover all potentials.  Heck I wouldn’t play other people for even $1 if they broke the rules while we played.  I just feel common sense could go a long way, and that could lead to loosing some of the excess 1 in a million scenarios.  I have been an umpire and referee for ice hockey so I am well aware of rule books.  Managers and coaches of pro sports don’t know every rule, and they are paid to oversee billion dollar teams/leagues.   I may not know every ROG, most tour pros probably don’t know them all either, hence rules officials players can ask during a round. I would be fairly certain that not 1 person has ever had to implement every rule in their lifetime. 

Edited June 8, 2021 by NJBigFish22

[2bGood]

 

3 minutes ago, NJBigFish22 said:

O

 

This is the last comment I am going to make on this.  I don’t disagree that the rules aren’t important and should be known, and in tournament play need to cover all potentials, but common sense could go a long way, and that could lead to loosing some of the excess 1 in a million scenarios.  I have been an umpire and referee for ice hockey so I am well aware of rule books.  Managers and coaches of pro sports don’t know every rule, and they are paid to oversee billion dollar teams/leagues.   I may not know every ROG, but I would be fairly certain that not 1 person has ever had to implement every rule in their lifetime.  

Going to be a rule nerd here - but I can safely say I have used all 24 rules of golf and do so every year if not every month. I would also say that I use the majority of the rules EVERY time I play. You can't actually play a round with out using rules 1- 10, and 13.

 

I think what you are referring to is not the 24 Rules of golf, but the interpretations, that provide guidance for 'unique' scenarios. 

 

 

 

[SNIPERBBB]

It's not hard to have to use every rule in the book. The trick is having to avoid all the Interpretations, Approved Ruling, Case plays or whatever similar rule book companion has to offer. Those are the fun ones to bring up in local association meetings, I'm the local association interpreter for high school basketball here. Some are good to learn the rules but we call some Unicorns because theres almost no way they can happen in the real world.

[antip]

11 hours ago, davep043 said:

 

If I read Interpretation 8.1d(1)/1 correctly, you are allowed to restore the original conditions, but are not required to do so.  

Dave 

Not correct, see the Exception to 8.1d(1).

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by antip

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, NJBigFish22 said:

 

 

This is the last comment I am going to make on this, for no other reason than my opinion is my opinion and your opinions are yours.  I don’t disagree that the rules aren’t important and should be known, and in tournament play need to cover all potentials.  Heck I wouldn’t play other people for even $1 if they broke the rules while we played.  I just feel common sense could go a long way, and that could lead to loosing some of the excess 1 in a million scenarios.  I have been an umpire and referee for ice hockey so I am well aware of rule books.  Managers and coaches of pro sports don’t know every rule, and they are paid to oversee billion dollar teams/leagues.   I may not know every ROG, most tour pros probably don’t know them all either, hence rules officials players can ask during a round. I would be fairly certain that not 1 person has ever had to implement every rule in their lifetime. 

 

Thank you. 👍

 

[cros0x]

Thanks for all the great info and discussion everyone - that's really helpful!

 

I feel much more confident in knowing what to do now if called upon 👍

 

Like most rules of golf, it seems to be common sense explained in 100 words 😂

 

Just one more related question if you'll permit me...

 

My course has currently has a couple of fairways in bad condition with very little grass in certain areas.

 

There is a local rule allowing 'pick and place', up to six inches behind the ball.

 

On a couple of occasions, I've placed the ball on the little grass I could find, reached for a club and the ball has moved 5-10 seconds after being placed (my guess is the weight of the ball ends up bending the grass and it can sometimes start rolling away).

 

What do I do in this situation, place the ball again or play as it lies?

 

I think it's play it as it lies because of this:

9.3 Ball Moved by Natural Forces

If natural forces (such as wind or water) cause a player’s ball at rest to move:

• There is no penalty, and
• The ball must be played from its new spot.

 

 

I had to look up 'natural forces':

 

Natural Forces

The effects of nature such as wind, water or when something happens for no apparent reason because of the effects of gravity.

 

 

Is that right?

 

Thanks all!

[SNIPERBBB]

Might have to ask the clubs committee. Some places once you take your hand off the ball, that's it. Others, you can still move the ball.

[Halebopp]

2 hours ago, cros0x said:

Thanks for all the great info and discussion everyone - that's really helpful!

 

I feel much more confident in knowing what to do now if called upon 👍

 

Like most rules of golf, it seems to be common sense explained in 100 words 😂

 

Just one more related question if you'll permit me...

 

My course has currently has a couple of fairways in bad condition with very little grass in certain areas.

 

There is a local rule allowing 'pick and place', up to six inches behind the ball.

 

On a couple of occasions, I've placed the ball on the little grass I could find, reached for a club and the ball has moved 5-10 seconds after being placed (my guess is the weight of the ball ends up bending the grass and it can sometimes start rolling away).

 

What do I do in this situation, place the ball again or play as it lies?

 

I think it's play it as it lies because of this:

9.3 Ball Moved by Natural Forces

If natural forces (such as wind or water) cause a player’s ball at rest to move:

• There is no penalty, and
• The ball must be played from its new spot.

 

 

I had to look up 'natural forces':

 

Natural Forces

The effects of nature such as wind, water or when something happens for no apparent reason because of the effects of gravity.

 

 

Is that right?

 

Thanks all!

 

If the ball moves 5-10 seconds after letting go of it, you need to play it as it lies (or take other available relief) as the ball had come to rest where you placed it as it was indeed moved by natural forces and you can prefer your lie only once.

[antip]

Assuming the club has in place the standard preferred lies local rule (MLR E-3), it's all about whether the ball was at rest when you first placed it. If you place it and it is at rest, then subsequently moves under force of nature, you must play as lies. If it rolls immediately on placing, you must place again. Rule 14.2 has further details.

[cros0x]

Lovely! Thanks for everyone’s help on this. Makes perfect sense to me now.

 

I now know that if someone asks me to move the ball in a stroke play event to try and cause a distraction, I can actually play mine first and ask them to move theirs!

 

If I I’m asked excessively maybe I’ll mark my ball with another ball... doesn’t seem to be against the rules (I actually wouldn’t do that but it might be tempting 😂)

[SNIPERBBB]

52 minutes ago, cros0x said:

Lovely! Thanks for everyone’s help on this. Makes perfect sense to me now.

 

I now know that if someone asks me to move the ball in a stroke play event to try and cause a distraction, I can actually play mine first and ask them to move theirs!

 

If I I’m asked excessively maybe I’ll mark my ball with another ball... doesn’t seem to be against the rules (I actually wouldn’t do that but it might be tempting 😂)

Probably couldn't reasonably ask them to mark their ball as it's likely behind you. What you do is play your ball, then ask them if they want you to mark it now. Hopefully you guys are walking and he asks you to mark your ball and you face 200yd shots into the green.

Edited June 8, 2021 by SNIPERBBB

[Newby]

8 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Might have to ask the clubs committee. Some places once you take your hand off the ball, that's it. Others, you can still move the ball.

Which rule gives the committee that option? 

[SNIPERBBB]

13 minutes ago, Newby said:

Which rule gives the committee that option? 

Didn't say it was legal per USGA

[Newby]

1 hour ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Didn't say it was legal per USGA

Sorry. I thought it was a Rules forum. 

[2bGood]

6 hours ago, Newby said:

Which rule gives the committee that option? 

Model rule e-4 allows you to place more than once if needed. 

 

Given this I could see a local rule that allows you to take relief again if you ball rolls off of a tuft of grass and back onto an area that requires relief.

Edited June 9, 2021 by 2bGood

[SNIPERBBB]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

Sorry. I thought it was a Rules forum. 

Just pointing out you need to check how the club/committee/event is defining the rules.  Generally whenever local rules get involved they fail to get specific enough with the language if they don't copy/paste directly from the book. If you play strictly by the Preferred lies LR and the rest of the field is playing by a looser form then your at a disadvantage. Hence the suggestion to talk to whoever made the LR. "Local rules are made by fools, local rules are made by fools!" is a mantra I go by when I get involved in events/leagues that stray from the rules.

Edited June 8, 2021 by SNIPERBBB

[antip]

5 hours ago, Newby said:

Which rule gives the committee that option? 

IMO, there is an issue here, but it is not about committee options as such. The wording of 14.2b(2) "ball must be replaced by setting it down on the required spot and letting it go so that it stays on that spot" opens up the question how long does the ball need to be still before it loses ownership of that spot (before exposure to natural forces cuts in). I have heard multiple experienced people interpreting this differently - some saying they want the player to replace the ball again only if it moves instantly on being let go, others saying if it moves within the first few seconds of being let go it must be replaced again. And at regular play level, people approach this very differently. With no guidance in the book, there is scope for significant inconsistency on this issue. And the ramifications can be truly significant.

[Quasimoto]

On 6/7/2021 at 12:07 PM, Mr. Bean said:

 

C'mon, Sawgrass!! Everyone has a smartphone nowadays and can take a picture of the ball telling not only the spot but the orientation as well! And what a market place for a gimmick to be laid down around the ball to show the directions of the compass in order to make very sure the ball is replaced in EXACTLY the same way it was before lifting!!!

 

Oh yes, modern technology is capable of much more than just facebook and twitter 👏

 

P.S. If there is no visible mud on the ball how could the player know to re-orientate the ball..? 😉

 

We don’t carry phones with us when we play. 1 less distraction for everyone.

[bcski]

Curious question here, don't internet shoot me....

 

In the Op's original post and question...  Where in the rules does it say He MUST mark and move his ball in this circumstance?  

[Sawgrass]

6 minutes ago, bcski said:

Curious question here, don't internet shoot me....

 

In the Op's original post and question...  Where in the rules does it say He MUST mark and move his ball in this circumstance?  

See R15.3

[bcski]

That is for a "helping ball"...  Not what I was asking, did I miss something in 15.3?  but thank you for the referral

[sui generis]

9 minutes ago, bcski said:

That is for a "helping ball"...  Not what I was asking, did I miss something in 15.3?  but thank you for the referral

 

Read on a little further. 🙂

[bcski]

Okay, this is from the usga site:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-15-interpretations.html

 

Again what I'm asking is if a player asks me to mark and remove my ball when off the green where does it say I MUST do it?  Again I am not trying to help anybody in this scenario.  MUST  is the key word here.

 

Thanks for helping me understand this.  

 

15.3 Ball or Ball-Marker Helping or Interfering with Play

 

15.3a/1 – Breach of Rule for Leaving Helping Ball in Place Does Not Require Knowledge

In stroke play, under Rule 15.3a, if two or more players agree to leave a ball in place on the putting green to help any player, and the stroke is made with the helping ball left in place, each player who made the agreement gets two penalty strokes. A breach of Rule 15.3a does not depend on whether the players know that such an agreement is not allowed.

For example, in stroke play, before playing from just off the putting green, a player asks another player to leave his or her ball that is near the hole, in order to use it as a backstop. Without knowing this is not allowed, the other player agrees to leave his or her ball by the hole to help the other player. Once the stroke is made with the ball in place, both players get the penalty under Rule 15.3a.

The same outcome would apply if the player whose ball was near the hole offered to leave the ball in play to help the other player, and the other player accepted the offer and then played.

If the players know that they are not allowed to make such an agreement, but still do it, they are both disqualified under Rule 1.3b(1) for deliberately ignoring Rule 15.3a.

15.3a/2 – Players Allowed to Leave Helping Ball in Match Play

In a match, a player may agree to leave his or her ball in place to help the opponent since the outcome of any benefit that may come from the agreement affects only their match.

Edited June 9, 2021 by bcski

[SNIPERBBB]

D

4 minutes ago, bcski said:

Okay, this is from the usga site:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-15-interpretations.html

 

Again what I'm asking is if a player asks me to mark and remove my ball when off the green where does it say I MUST do it?  Again I am not trying to help anybody in this scenario.  MUST  is the key word here.

 

Thanks for helping me understand this.  

 

15.3 Ball or Ball-Marker Helping or Interfering with Play

 

15.3a/1 – Breach of Rule for Leaving Helping Ball in Place Does Not Require Knowledge

In stroke play, under Rule 15.3a, if two or more players agree to leave a ball in place on the putting green to help any player, and the stroke is made with the helping ball left in place, each player who made the agreement gets two penalty strokes. A breach of Rule 15.3a does not depend on whether the players know that such an agreement is not allowed.

For example, in stroke play, before playing from just off the putting green, a player asks another player to leave his or her ball that is near the hole, in order to use it as a backstop. Without knowing this is not allowed, the other player agrees to leave his or her ball by the hole to help the other player. Once the stroke is made with the ball in place, both players get the penalty under Rule 15.3a.

The same outcome would apply if the player whose ball was near the hole offered to leave the ball in play to help the other player, and the other player accepted the offer and then played.

If the players know that they are not allowed to make such an agreement, but still do it, they are both disqualified under Rule 1.3b(1) for deliberately ignoring Rule 15.3a.

15.3a/2 – Players Allowed to Leave Helping Ball in Match Play

In a match, a player may agree to leave his or her ball in place to help the opponent since the outcome of any benefit that may come from the agreement affects only their match.

The rule for off the green is 15-3b. There are no Interpretations for that part of the rule as it's fairly straightforward and not much wiggle room other than the the word "reasonably"

[bcski]

Ahh found it on another usga site.  Thanks.  The new problem is it says "...may require..."  which in legal terms is not the same as "must"...  But I doubt anyone would take a tourney committee to court over being forced to comply with a legally unenforceable rule...

 

Again thanks for helping me find the usga's thoughts on this.

 

 

[sui generis]

40 minutes ago, bcski said:

Ahh found it on another usga site.  Thanks.  The new problem is it says "...may require..."  which in legal terms is not the same as "must"...  But I doubt anyone would take a tourney committee to court over being forced to comply with a legally unenforceable rule...

 

Again thanks for helping me find the usga's thoughts on this.

 

 

 

The "may" defines the the player's options. They "may" or may not REQUIRE that the offending ball be removed.

Edited June 9, 2021 by sui generis

[nsxguy]

7 minutes ago, bcski said:

Ahh found it on another usga site.  Thanks.  The new problem is it says "...may require..."  which in legal terms is not the same as "must"...  But I doubt anyone would take a tourney committee to court over being forced to comply with a legally unenforceable rule...

 

Again thanks for helping me find the usga's thoughts on this.

 

 

 

And NOW you don't tell US ?!?!?!

 

"may" and "can" can be synonyms. In this case they are.

 

When Sui suggested you "Read further", did you ?

 

The answer isn't in 15.3a, which you posted in full; it's in 15.3b

 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by nsxguy

[bcski]

Yes may and can can be synonymous. 

 

My comment was on the legal end of the vernacular used, and that "can require" does not carry the same weight as the word Must in the strict legal sense.  AGAIN, I said I doubt a golfer would seek legal recourse against a committee in a tournament if they were forced or penalized for not moving their ball when asked...  

 

I originally asked if the usga had a rule stating the player MUST move the ball and thanks to the help from you all we discovered the rule does not state a player MUST move the ball in the strictest legal sense.

 

However as with all sports the intent is to aid the players in having a level playing field, and the intent of the rule is clear - that it is expected the player asked to mark their ball should out of sportsmanship - or sportswomanship if you prefer.

 

Again, thanks to all who helped steer the ship...

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, bcski said:

My comment was on the legal end of the vernacular used, and that "can require" does not carry the same weight as the word Must in the strict legal sense.  AGAIN, I said I doubt a golfer would seek legal recourse against a committee in a tournament if they were forced or penalized for not moving their ball when asked...  

I think you are mangling the meaning of the sentence/rule a bit given the may/must does not apply at all to the player needed to mark the ball.

 

The player may require the other player to mark the spot and lift the ball

 

The rules is not intended to be "Must Require". As the player (referred to earlier in the rule) has the option of requiring another player to do something. If you made it Must -it does not make it stronger it changes the meaning. 

 

Here is an example from the legal world taken from legal statues. In this example the judge has the option of require a prosecutor to do something. 

 

The judge of a court having jurisdiction of the alleged offense, upon affidavit filed with the judge alleging the commission of a crime and the unjustified refusal of the prosecuting attorney to prosecute any person for the crime, may require the prosecuting attorney to appear before the judge and explain the refusal.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by 2bGood