Does a lighter shaft make the club head feel heavier?

[Nickc]

So for instance same club heads but one with 120gm steel shaft the other with a 60gm carbon fibre shaft. Will the latter make the club head feel heavier when you swing it.

Same flex but no adjustment in shaft to match swing weight.

 

If this is the case I have some follow up questions!

Edited June 8, 2021 by Nickc
Follow up question bit

[North Butte]

To me the lighter shaft makes the club feel lighter. But I've heard it both ways, lots of people find that a lighter shaft helps them feel the weight of the clubhead more. 

 

That might be because I don't have a lot of wrist action in my swing, it's more of a swing rather than a hit and so I just don't get that feeling of momentum from a heavy head on a light shaft. 

[liveagua]

A lighter shaft will lower swing weight, so no, it won't make the clubhead feel heavier. 

[Stuart_G]

51 minutes ago, North Butte said:

To me the lighter shaft makes the club feel lighter. But I've heard it both ways, lots of people find that a lighter shaft helps them feel the weight of the clubhead more.

 

Yes, it's very subjective.  It can depend on a lot of things - including how good a fit that either the shaft weight and head weight might be.

 

And to make it even more complex, for some the shaft stiffness can effect the head weight feel (or presence).  Typically stiffer can feel heavier and softer can feel lighter since the shaft stiffness effects how quickly and spread out over time the feel of the head weight accelerating gets transferred to our hands.

 

[Ger21]

I just built a 7 iron to test a Fujikura Pro Iron 95g shaft.
The head weight is the same as my standard 7 iron with an AMT Tour White shaft. I do have some tip weights, so there may be a ±5 gram difference, and I don't have the specs handy right now.
The iron with the 95g shaft is about 35 grams lighter in total weight, but the swingweight "feels" heavier. unfortunately, I don't have a swingweight scale to get actual numbers. They both have the same grips, and are the same length.

[Nickc]

My non technical reason for asking the question (op here!) was that I thought the simple balance point would move nearer the head and hence it would feel heavier.

Now (although not for all) a general rule propounded is lighter shaft ..especially for people with slow swing speeds ...would increase the swing speed so wondering if this in part due to the head feeling heavier especially on the down swing...swinging with what feels like a heavier weight resulting in more momentum (obviously I am no physicist!)

[Stuart_G]

48 minutes ago, Nickc said:

My non technical reason for asking the question (op here!) was that I thought the simple balance point would move nearer the head and hence it would feel heavier.

 

The problem with that is that is that although the swing weight is a measure of balance, it was never really meant to match a balance based quantity.  It's just using balance as a short cut or an approximation to help match the MOI of the club by measuring the moment about a particular fulcrum.   The balance point actually doesn't play a part in the physics of the swing.  It's a static characteristic, not a dynamic one.

 

Quote

Now (although not for all) a general rule propounded is lighter shaft ..especially for people with slow swing speeds ...would increase the swing speed so wondering if this in part due to the head feeling heavier especially on the down swing...swinging with what feels like a heavier weight resulting in more momentum (obviously I am no physicist!)

 

Mechanics and the changes to those mechanics can certainly effect the weight feel. The feeling of weight is really feeling the resistance of any mass to the acceleration being applied to it.  So if the lighter shaft allows for greater acceleration (which is not always the same as greater swing speed - at least not necessarily the club head speed at impact) then it could result in the perception of a heavier club.  But that would only be the case if the change in weight resulted in more (or less) force being applied during the swing.   If the weight change did not result in any change to the effort put into the swing, then one would expect the feel to match the actual weight change.

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Stuart_G

[Pepperturbo]

It depends on shaft you're used to, but no; it doesn't make the heads noticeably heavier.  Also, the other influence is choice in grip weight and wraps.  My grips have 2wraps with influenced what swing weight we could get to.  All I wanted was D1/D2, and got it.

 

I had PX 6.0 in my 620 MB heads, switched to i110g Steelfiber "S" which were really nice, and currently HIGH bend, Tensei AV White AM2 "S" (ascending 90g-108g) shafts, which play stiffer than Steelfiber.

[Cwebb]

4 hours ago, Nickc said:

So for instance same club heads but one with 120gm steel shaft the other with a 60gm carbon fibre shaft. Will the latter make the club head feel heavier when you swing it.

Same flex but no adjustment in shaft to match swing weight.

 

If this is the case I have some follow up questions!

 

If the swing-weight is set the same with the lighter shaft, it means there was an increase in actual head weight,.....which moves the balance point towards the head.  Many players will sense this as a "more head heavy feel", even though the swing-weight measures the same and the total weight is lighter

[Stuart_G]

13 hours ago, Cwebb said:

 

If the swing-weight is set the same with the lighter shaft, it means there was an increase in actual head weight,

 

Sorry but that's not always the case.  In fact, it's frequently not the case.  It's not safe to make any assumptions about what happens to the swing weight with a shaft weight change.

 

Quote

Many players will sense this as a "more head heavy feel", even though the swing-weight measures the same and the total weight is lighter

 

But players don't feel the balance point when they grip the club.   Statically, they might feel the first moment - which is total weight multiplied by the distance of the balance point from the hands.  So even if the balance point does change with the lighter shaft weight, that first moment is still likely to be less due to the drop in static weight.

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Stuart_G

[Drivingrangehero]

I tore my rotator cuff a few months back and haven’t had surgery yet. It hurts to come back past Rahm or Finau, and I’m somewhat like Freddy couples in posture and swing with going across the line, slow tempo, and a little past parallel.

 

I decided to go to the range, and I had two clubs in my car (Adams DHY with a Modus 105x  at 1/2 over and a 56* wedge with an Dynalite Gold SL shaft at 1/2 over). I asked for a wedge and an 8 iron from the bin. The kid handed me two 8 irons both women’s graphite shafts. One of the 8 irons was 1/2 over Mens standard, and the other was Ladies standard length so -1/2 from men’s standard maybe ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  (if there is such a thing as standard anyways)  Both women’s 8 irons were Callaway Steelheads, the longer one had a shaft that said 99 (I can only assume that is it’s weight) and the shorter 8 irons had a 45g shaft . For reference I play Modus 105s at 1/2 over hs/x1 in my irons at D-5.  
 

I could feel the head in all the irons, but I definitely noticed the heavier overall weight. The Adams DHY (Modus 105x) felt much heavier. I don’t know if it was a bit more painful to swing because of the weight, or the fact that it’s a 4/5 iron (24*), so I take the club back further subconsciously ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

The Ladies 99 shafted 8 iron and the Dynalite Gold SL shafted wedge felt similar.  
 

The 45 gram ladies 8 iron did not feel head heavy, in fact, the whole club just felt light. Initially picking the club up, I could feel the head, so maybe the initial lift into my hands possibly, but I don’t know.  When I swung the club, it just felt super light. I could still feel the head, not anymore than the other clubs, perhaps less, but that could just be the overall weight,  the whole club just felt light. The first 3 balls I hit thin. 

The lightest shafted club saw the most play. It hurt least coming back. I went back the next day and requested the lighter club, it also has a Wynn wrap midsize grip for some reason,  both women’s clubs did, which I liked more than I thought I would. No glove needed 😊) 

 

 

[Cwebb]

8 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Sorry but that's not always the case.  In fact, it's frequently not the case.  It's not safe to make any assumptions about what happens to the swing weight with a shaft weight change.

 

 That's right, it's not always case.  I was responding to his example of a 120g shaft vs a 60g shaft.   The 60g shaft at the same length, will always require signficantly more head weight in order to have the same swing-weight

[J13]

23 hours ago, Nickc said:

So for instance same club heads but one with 120gm steel shaft the other with a 60gm carbon fibre shaft. Will the latter make the club head feel heavier when you swing it.

Same flex but no adjustment in shaft to match swing weight.

 

If this is the case I have some follow up questions!

 

 

The lighter club will feel lighter because it is.  The only way you would make the club feel heavier is if you put that 60g shaft in then add a ton of weight to the head.  Then the swing weight would be and feel heavier.

Edited June 9, 2021 by J13

[Nickc]

2 hours ago, J13 said:

 

 

The lighter club will feel lighter because it is.  The only way you would make the club feel heavier is if you put that 60g shaft in then add a ton of weight to the head.  Then the swing weight would be and feel heavier.

Agree the club will be lighter, stands to reason, but will the head feel heavier in relation to the whole club when you swing it than with the heavier shaft (and agreed overall heavier club)?

 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Nickc

[Ri_Redneck]

MOI is SUPPOSED to be the most accurate tell-all on "swing feel" of a club. Lighter total weight, with head weight remaining unchanged, always measures as lower MOI. Weight is added to the head to bring the MOI back to where it was.

 

BT

[Adam C]

I totally get what the OP is talking about and agree with him. It might not show up on the swing weight scale but a person can "feel" a difference when using a light shaft or a heavy one. The swing weight scale can not compete with the human hand and arm with the numerous nerves that can differentiate how these 2 clubs in this case feel.

 

Just think about how the club feels if you are to lift the grip end of the club with the head resting on the ground. The heavier shaft will be noticeable compared to the lighter one. Now if you continue that movement and lift the head off the ground while still holding the grip, the proportion of weight increase from the head will be much greater with the 60g shaft against the 120g version and that can translate into a "heavier feel".

[Nickc]

See Rick Shiels comment re feeling of graphite shaft re club head  just after 6 min mark 

 

 

 

 

 

[GrandStranded]

On 6/8/2021 at 2:16 PM, liveagua said:

A lighter shaft will lower swing weight, so no, it won't make the clubhead feel heavier. 

I’m switching to senior flex Mavrik irons and hybrids.

The SW with the Mavrik is D1 with the irons and D2 with the hybrids whereas my old regular flex Rogue X were D0 and D1.

This confuses me due to the fact the senior Catalysts shafts in the Mavriks are 55g and the Synergy’s in the X are 67g.

Will the higher SW negate the benefits of the lighter more flexible shafts in the Mavriks?

Or are the two independent of each other?

Is a senior player looking for a little more swing speed and distance better off going with a lighter more flexible shaft or less swing weight?

Sorry if these are dumb questions, but with the price of clubs today I want to make sure I get this right.

Edited June 9, 2021 by john myrbch

[Stuart_G]

13 hours ago, Ri_Redneck said:

MOI is SUPPOSED to be the most accurate tell-all on "swing feel" of a club

 

It's only really the most accurate for just the rotational part of the swing.   But the swing is much more complex than just pure rotation about a single axis.   So even MOI has it's limitations.

 

 

13 hours ago, Nickc said:

but will the head feel heavier in relation to the whole club

 

Part of the problem here is that people seem to think that there is actually some physics based distinction in the feel between the head and the rest of the shaft when they swing the club.   There isn't.  That's really somewhat of a subjective "illusion" each person tends to generate internally.   And not everyone will do that the same way.

 

The club isn't two separate movable parts, the head is fixed to the shaft so it's really just one homogeneous weight that you're swinging.    Now the parts will tend to contribute more some physical characteristics of the club than others,  the head changes tend to effect the MOI more than the shaft weight - and the shaft changes tends to contribute more to the total weight changes - and both can influence the first moment somewhat equally BUT those effects are not exclusive.     So there is no clear distinction on how people will translate the actual feel changes and characterize them in their mind as "head weight feel."  

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Stuart_G

[joostin]

Interesting thread, bringing back to life...

My take is it depends on how your own swing is, especially at transitions - starting the backswing, top transition, and however your release is.  One piece takeaway vs early wrist set, laid off vs upright, setting wrist cup or bow, handsy at the top, smooth vs aggressive, late release, weak/strong grip, grip type, personal strength.... pretty much everything will affect feel sensitivity.

 

The things we can feel related to club weighting are:  total weight, torque (moment - both longitudinal and torsional), MOI (multiple kinds, not just what an Auditor measures, but resistance during rotation at different axes, also longitudinal and torsional), and effects of clubhead movement allowed by shaft flexibility.

 

For a 120g vs 60g shaft, with the things we can measure, the 60g shaft will come out to lower total weight, likely lower torque and lower MOI (both longitudinally from the butt of the club, depending how weight is distributed in the shafts), but.....

 

[TLDR] It's possible you can "feel the head" as heavier due to all the movements of the club, including flexibility of the shaft, combined with your swing movements.  It's also possible it won't 🙂

[phizzy30]

Lighter shafts feel light to me.  I like a higher swing weight because I can feel the head and I seem to be more accurate.  I grew up gaming heavy steel shafts in my driver and irons even as a kid.  Even now, all my clubs have heavier shafts. 

[ChaosTheory]

For me, a lighter club (ie shaft) usually feels both lighter and more head heavy at the same time.  A heavier club (shaft) feels to me heavier and less head heavy.  A DG shafted iron feels wonderfully balanced to me, but I'm too weak to use it effectively.  My 70 gram graphites feel more head heavy.  I try different swingweights to try to get the feel where I want it.

 

I have a swing (Moe Norman-ish) that I think is pretty sensitive to weight and balance because it doesn't get some of the wrist leverage early in that takeaway that most swings do. 

 

Some people find a softer flex feels heavier or more head heavy because the head exerts more influence on the shaft.

As we've seen above, some people find a stiffer flex feels heavier.

 

No one should project their personal feel of this onto the whole universe of golfers.

[Noodler]

The short answer to the OP is no, a lighter shaft will not make the club feel heavier, but it obviously changes the static balance of the club and the resultant swingweight and MOI.  So I believe that what the OP was really trying to say is that the weight distribution of the club will change, with more of the overall weight now being credited to the head as opposed to the shaft+grip.

 

As noted in a previous post in this thread, the golf swing deals with multiple torque axes and also angular momentum.  These forces are readily felt by the golfer during the golf swing.  Although the golf club is one single unit, the weight distribution across that single unit has clear effect on the torque and momentum felt.  The "feels" will impact the golfer's proprioception; their ability to track the position of the club head through space.  A club that is too light makes it more difficult to track the club (easily tested by turning a club upside down and swinging it at a target).  Weight that is positioned further away from the hinge point in the swing (fulcrum) has more impact on the overall force felt.

 

Where golfers get confused is due to the manner in which swingweight is used.  Since swingweight is only a static measurement of balance about a fulcrum, it's possible to have 2 clubs have the same swingweight, but be very different in overall weight.  It's the overall weight that is felt in the momentum of the swing.  If all the club components are fairly standard off-the-shelf stuff at typical weights, then swingweight may be comparable, however, once you introduce heavier grips (mid or jumbo size) or lightweight shafts, all bets are off when it comes to swingweight values being meaningful for comparison.

 

I'm coming off a shoulder injury that forced me to significantly lighten my clubs to reduce the pain.  The change in overall weight and reduction in MOI had a major impact on my center-strike accuracy (the result of proprioception success).  The goal in a club fitting should directly focus on finding the balance between sufficient "weight" for center-strike accuracy and optimal weight to maximize club speed.  Unfortunately that's not something most fitters focus on.  Their "demo carts" are not created with the ability to easily change overall weight and experiment with weight balance easily.  The only real "tool" they have is changing out the shafts to affect the overall weight and flex of the club.

[BREWMASTER95060]

 "once you introduce heavier grips (mid or jumbo size) or lightweight shafts, all bets are off when it comes to swingweight values being meaningful for comparison."

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swingwt2.php#equation
https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swingwt3.php
https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swingwt4.php
https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swingwt5.php

[BREWMASTER95060]

here take a look at this:

 

[Ri_Redneck]

On 6/10/2021 at 5:17 AM, Stuart_G said:

 

It's only really the most accurate for just the rotational part of the swing.   But the swing is much more complex than just pure rotation about a single axis.   So even MOI has it's limitations.

 

 

 

Part of the problem here is that people seem to think that there is actually some physics based distinction in the feel between the head and the rest of the shaft when they swing the club.   There isn't.  That's really somewhat of a subjective "illusion" each person tends to generate internally.   And not everyone will do that the same way.

 

The club isn't two separate movable parts, the head is fixed to the shaft so it's really just one homogeneous weight that you're swinging.    Now the parts will tend to contribute more some physical characteristics of the club than others,  the head changes tend to effect the MOI more than the shaft weight - and the shaft changes tends to contribute more to the total weight changes - and both can influence the first moment somewhat equally BUT those effects are not exclusive.     So there is no clear distinction on how people will translate the actual feel changes and characterize them in their mind as "head weight feel."  

 

True. People forget (or don't know about) total weight as an important fitting metric. We add weight to the head because that changes heft with the least amount of total weight change. But sometimes, players need more total weight with little heft change. Hence the comments about heavier grips working out instead.

 

Good thread!

 

BT

[BREWMASTER95060]

BLUE= SHAFT WEIGHT
ORANGE=TOTAL CLUB WEIGHT
MAROON SWING WEIGHT FROM = http://www.leaderboard.com/SWINGWEIGHT
RED IS THE CLUB BALANCE OF THE CLUB IS GC= ((G1*D1)+(G2*D2)+(G3*D3).../GRAMS
QUESTION DO YOU FEEL THE CHANGE IN TOTAL WEIGHT OR DO YOU FEEL THE CHANGE IN BALANCE POINT.
TAKING OUT WEIGHT OUT OF THE TIP OF THE SHAFT AND RAISING THE BALANCE POINT= $$$$$$$$.

Edited June 15, 2021 by BREWMASTER95060

[Stuart_G]

5 hours ago, BREWMASTER95060 said:

QUESTION DO YOU FEEL THE CHANGE IN TOTAL WEIGHT OR DO YOU FEEL THE CHANGE IN BALANCE POINT.
 

 

You can potentially feel the first moment of the club which is the total weight times the distance from the hands to the balance point - but you can't feel just the balance point by simply holding the club at the grip.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Stuart_G

[BREWMASTER95060]

BLUE= GRIP WEIGHT
ORANGE=TOTAL CLUB WEIGHT
MAROON SWING WEIGHT FROM = http://www.leaderboard.com/SWINGWEIGHT
RED IS THE CLUB BALANCE OF THE CLUB IS GC= ((G1*D1)+(G2*D2)+(G3*D3).../GRAMS
QUESTION DO YOU FEEL THE CHANGE IN TOTAL WEIGHT OR DO YOU FEEL THE CHANGE IN BALANCE POINT?
I FEEL THE CHANGE IN BALANCE POINT.

 

[BREWMASTER95060]

 

BLUE= LEAD TAPE ON SHAFT @  14" 

ORANGE=TOTAL CLUB WEIGHT
MAROON SWING WEIGHT FROM = http://www.leaderboard.com/SWINGWEIGHT
RED IS THE CLUB BALANCE OF THE CLUB IS GC= ((G1*D1)+(G2*D2)+(G3*D3).../GRAMS
QUESTION DO YOU FEEL THE CHANGE IN TOTAL WEIGHT OR DO YOU FEEL THE CHANGE IN BALANCE POINT?
I FEEL THE CHANGE IN BALANCE POINT.