Requiring All Rounds be Posted

[Girevik]

Our club has instituted a new policy that ALL rounds must be posted to GHIN if you want to play in a league or any remotely competitive event.  They track the tee sheet, and if you don't post a score for a day you play they will post an even par round for you.  I understand the importance of posting scores, but is this typical?  This removes the option of practice rounds, which I thought USGA rules allowed for.

[jvincent]

That's an odd policy.

 

Section 2 of the handicap rules very specifically defines what rounds are acceptable for posting.

 

Strictly speaking a "practice round" is not defined, but if you are hitting multiple balls, extra chips, etc. you are not playing according to the rules so the round would not qualify as acceptable.

 

Sounds like the committee at your club is over-reacting to something.

Edited June 9, 2021 by jvincent

[Sawgrass]

Also, if you’re playing alone, you’re not supposed to post. I wonder how your club deals with that.

 

I would send your handicap chair excerpts from the handicap manual describing what should/should not be posted and ask for a review of the club policy. 

[SecondandGoal]

2 hours ago, jvincent said:

Sounds like the committee at your club is over-reacting to something.

 

Absolutely the most likely scenario. There are probably a lot of sandbaggers at this course, and there's a lot of pressure from the non-sandbaggers to deal with it.

We had one guy in particular who carried a 12-15 depending on how effective his massaging was at any point, but was probably more like a 4-5. He'd play with his wife, shoot a 73, and not post it because he was "coaching" her and she would give him putts. We also had a bunch of guys who wouldn't post 9-hole rounds, or would conveniently "forget" to post a good round. The committee did review the tee sheets and question them if they didn't post (with a couple penalty rounds posted, but not many), which helped clean up a lot of the problems. Automatically posting a penalty round seems pretty extreme. Not to mention the fact that making it even par for everyone seems pretty stupid - much more penal to a high capper than low capper.

[Krt22]

Odd take since the WHS limits egregious baggers and quickly alters index's when exceptional rounds are posted.

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, SecondandGoal said:

We had one guy in particular who carried a 12-15 depending on how effective his massaging was at any point, but was probably more like a 4-5. He'd play with his wife, shoot a 73, and not post it because he was "coaching" her and she would give him putts.

 

We also had a bunch of guys who wouldn't post 9-hole rounds, or would conveniently "forget" to post a good round. The committee did review the tee sheets and question them if they didn't post (with a couple penalty rounds posted, but not many), which helped clean up a lot of the problems. Automatically posting a penalty round seems pretty extreme. Not to mention the fact that making it even par for everyone seems pretty stupid - much more penal to a high capper than low capper.

 

Why is that one guy still in your club ?

 

Not sure about the current HC rules but the older ones suggested a penalty score of the lowest differential in the golfer's last 20 IIRC.

 

That's "hurts" him enough. Do it once and he likely won't do it again.

[MtlJeff]

That's pretty ridiculous IMO

 

As was pointed out, only rounds played by the rules of golf are required to be posted. I post all of my rounds typically, but if i go out with work colleagues and drink 5 beers, i'm not posting that round and i know that going in. It's just a fun round and time out with friends, and not really "golf"

 

For my club, you are required to have 85% of your rounds posted to play in events.

[bcski]

Seems like your club has some serious sandbagging issues.  The club should be evaluating their waiting list, dues structure, and develop a policy outfling warnings leading to dismissal from the club.

 

With so many clubs having long waitlist to join, now is the time to rid the clubs of these asinine sandbaggers for meaningless club tournaments.   

[Girevik]

21 hours ago, jvincent said:

Sounds like the committee at your club is over-reacting to something.

 

Yes, I'm sure they're trying to reduce sandbagging, but this seems extreme.  Besides, cheaters gonna cheat.  If I want to raise my handicap (not sure that's even possible), I'll just add 3 or 4 strokes to my score

 

21 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

Also, if you’re playing alone, you’re not supposed to post. I wonder how your club deals with that.

 

I think that if you're on the tee sheet alone it catches that, but I don't know what would happen if someone didn't show up.  Maybe someone would catch that as well.   But this policy does prevent me from playing multiple balls or taking more than one shot from problem areas for practice.  Some things you just can't simulate on the range.

 

Thanks for confirming this is not typical and a bit extreme.  I just wanted to make sure I had the correct understanding and this was not a typical thing before raising a question.

[RCGA]

I'd probably leave the club if this was the rule.

 

There's lots of times I don't play by the letter of the law, rules wise, because I'm messing around on the course with 2 drivers (15+ clubs), hitting mulligans (can I hit a hybrid and still cut that dogleg?) or playing a foolish round with friends (beers, made-up match-play games, etc.)

 

[mark m]

Whether or not to post a penalty score is always up to the discretion of the HC. It’s probably just stating a policy publicly so it looks “fair and applies to all,” when really the concern is an individual or a few individuals who are winning $$ in net tournaments way too often. Some guys are just determined baggers and use all their craftiness to keep the handicap above where it should be. In this case, you probably have some guys who win too much cash in club tournaments and they are playing and not posting some good scores from some of their “casual” rounds. Typically you would never see a severe penalty score posted by the HC for a player who is not “on the radar.” It’s no fun dealing with these issues. And lots of Committee members don’t like confrontation (having a tough conversation) with these guys either. 
 

Doing nothing and hoping the system takes care of the problem is not ideal either. Many clubs have various formats like Fourball, Foursomes, Greensomes, Combo, etc., where scores are not posted or guys can inflate hole scores here and there. So it’s often possible to maintain a slightly higher handicap if you are crafty and determined. 

I wonder how many clubs in the US did any serious handicap reviews last season?

[naval2006]

Oh my, that classic holier than thou attitude for only one guy.  Probably the Committee should humbly ask for experienced help.  

[mark m]

Too many courses do not have a real HC, it’s just the pro. At other clubs back in the day, they disliked the idea of meetings so much they tried a Knuth Point system - where you earn points for placing high in net events. Get enough points and the reduction to your handicap was automatic. 

[golfortennis]

1 hour ago, mark m said:

Too many courses do not have a real HC, it’s just the pro. At other clubs back in the day, they disliked the idea of meetings so much they tried a Knuth Point system - where you earn points for placing high in net events. Get enough points and the reduction to your handicap was automatic. 

 

DIng ding ding, we have a winner. 

[Shilgy]

17 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

DIng ding ding, we have a winner. 

I do like that idea, will need to look at it for my club. @nsxguy had the correct penalty score…match the low differential of the last 20.  As noted a 72 would be very penal for a high handicapper and sandbagging for a +6! 

[nsxguy]

On 6/10/2021 at 11:09 AM, Girevik said:

 

Yes, I'm sure they're trying to reduce sandbagging, but this seems extreme.  Besides, cheaters gonna cheat.  If I want to raise my handicap (not sure that's even possible), I'll just add 3 or 4 strokes to my score

 

I think that if you're on the tee sheet alone it catches that, but I don't know what would happen if someone didn't show up.  Maybe someone would catch that as well.   But this policy does prevent me from playing multiple balls or taking more than one shot from problem areas for practice.  Some things you just can't simulate on the range.

 

Thanks for confirming this is not typical and a bit extreme.  I just wanted to make sure I had the correct understanding and this was not a typical thing before raising a question.

 

On 6/10/2021 at 11:09 AM, Girevik said:

 

Yes, I'm sure they're trying to reduce sandbagging, but this seems extreme.  Besides, cheaters gonna cheat.  If I want to raise my handicap (not sure that's even possible), I'll just add 3 or 4 strokes to my score

 

I think that if you're on the tee sheet alone it catches that, but I don't know what would happen if someone didn't show up.  Maybe someone would catch that as well.   But this policy does prevent me from playing multiple balls or taking more than one shot from problem areas for practice.  Some things you just can't simulate on the range.

 

Thanks for confirming this is not typical and a bit extreme.  I just wanted to make sure I had the correct understanding and this was not a typical thing before raising a question.

 

Your Handicap Committee needs to read the Handicapping Rules.

 

This is more than a bit extreme IMO.

 

Your committee has effectively eliminated practice rounds. The question really is, do the have the right ?

 

As others have already pointed out, if a player goes out by himself that round is NOT post-able for handicap. If a round is not played by the ROG it is NOT post-able for handicap. This obviously includes hitting multiple balls all over the course. How would you even post a score ???

 

I'm not sure your committee has the authority to override USGA GHIN posting rules.

 

And what about rounds played ELSEWHERE ? Unless you club handicap is made up ONLY of rounds played at YOUR course, ALL rounds played by the rules with other players are post-able and should be included.

 

It is, or should be, beyond the purview of your committee to invoke such a rule as issuing penalty scores when it is not a suggesting of the Handicapping Rules such as playing by oneself or not playing by the ROG.

 

As for your cheating scenario, which I am assuming you wouldn't do, this is a prime reason for "peer review" and not playing alone. If you were to simply add 3 or 4 strokes off your score, or start missing shots/putts on purpose, it would definitely (eventually ?) be obvious to the other members you're playing with and you'd be brought up in front of the committee to answer for it.

 

You are concerned. And you should be. By all means READ the Handicapping Manual and point some things out to your committee. They DO already have ways of mitigating sandbagging.

 

Good luck.

 

[smashdn]

18 hours ago, mark m said:

Too many courses do not have a real HC, it’s just the pro. At other clubs back in the day, they disliked the idea of meetings so much they tried a Knuth Point system - where you earn points for placing high in net events. Get enough points and the reduction to your handicap was automatic. 

 

17 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

DIng ding ding, we have a winner. 

 

Are there still "T" scores with the new system?  I kind of got the impression that those were supposed to weed out sandbagging to some extent.  I am not a handicap guru by any stretch.

 

Sort fo going along with the casual/practice round questions, what if you tend to play different sets of clubs?  I play about half my rounds with persimmon woods and old forged irons just because and it is definitely a different challenge than when using modern clubs.  I play all scrambles and actual competitive rounds with my modern stuff.  I would say it results in a difference of 4-7 shots at times in an 18 hole round.  I don't keep a separate handicap as I am just using Grint for my index and mainly in the off chance I have to provide one for events.

[Girevik]

26 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

As for your cheating scenario, which I am assuming you wouldn't do, this is a prime reason for "peer review" and not playing alone. If you were to simply add 3 or 4 strokes off your score, or start missing shots/putts on purpose, it would definitely (eventually ?) be obvious to the other members you're playing with and you'd be brought up in front of the committee to answer for it.

 

 

I've never had anyone I'm playing with pay much attention to what score I record in a round, let alone what I actually post.  I could shoot a 72 and post a 102 and they wouldn't have any idea unless they checked up on me in GHIN.

 

Seems to me it should be pretty easy to identify people who score consistently better when money is on the line than their standard round and deal with them individually.  But for all I know they are the big spenders at the club and they don't want to call them out individually so instead try a (ineffective) shotgun approach.

[nsxguy]

28 minutes ago, Girevik said:

I've never had anyone I'm playing with pay much attention to what score I record in a round, let alone what I actually post.  I could shoot a 72 and post a 102 and they wouldn't have any idea unless they checked up on me in GHIN.

 

Seems to me it should be pretty easy to identify people who score consistently better when money is on the line than their standard round and deal with them individually.  But for all I know they are the big spenders at the club and they don't want to call them out individually so instead try a (ineffective) shotgun approach.

 

Unlike most other sports, golf is based on honesty. There are usually NO referees/officials on the golf course for most people.

 

I GET that you can post anything you want - and some people do. But part of "peer review" isn't only verifying the scores you shoot are entered correctly when playing with the club but that any scores you enter are checked regularly.

 

The association up in NY my club belonged to used to highlight any round that was outside of a normal range so that the club, when they reviewed their players scores could at least ask about it - or correct it if necessary.

 

I GET that there are sandbaggers.

 

I ALSO get that most people, ANYTIME someone shoots a great round, or even a good one (if they beat someone else by a shot or 2), refers to the winner as a sandbagger. i.e. they have no idea what they're talking about.

 

But your committee's job should be to follow the rules of handicapping, not make up their own rules.

 

As for scoring better in competition goes, there are 2 types of athletes in pretty much every sport. Those that rise to the pressure and those who crumble from it.

 

Generally speaking it seems to me there are more of the latter - and there are reasons. I won't bother going into them as you probably know the reasons as well as I do.

 

And even if there ARE "big spenders", and those in power don't want to call them out individually, do you think those sandbagging big spenders are going to be any less mad if they're given penalty scores ? Just because they weren't named ? I doubt it. Anybody can see it on their scoring record.

 

Anywho, good luck going forward.

 

 

[rp4golf]

On 6/9/2021 at 10:55 AM, Girevik said:

Our club has instituted a new policy that ALL rounds must be posted to GHIN if you want to play in a league or any remotely competitive event.  They track the tee sheet, and if you don't post a score for a day you play they will post an even par round for you.  I understand the importance of posting scores, but is this typical?  This removes the option of practice rounds, which I thought USGA rules allowed for.

If I was you I'd ask the pro at your course, as it seems they have their reasons.

And frankly, with the long-standing complaints of scores being posted in handicapped tournaments by sandbaggers, it just seems they're trying to eliminate the practice round loophole - and being as the course is it's own Committee, they're allowed to amend USGA Rules to fit their needs/purposes.

My favorite example of "excessive practice round players" is one guy at the club I used to be a member of. The running complaint was that the same guy would win his flight, every single year, in seemingly every handicapped tournament concluding with the club championship. He played a lot, but posted few rounds, and always explained his extra rounds as practice. One day, in hearing someone complaining in the 19th hole I said, "Of course he just beat his handicap by 7 strokes. If he's only turning in his bad rounds, and uses his good ones as practice, not including his practice rounds, he's artificially inflating his own handicap - because he plays so much leading up to tournaments he's better than his 'cap via repetition."

[golfortennis]

I should clarify, I was not actually supporting the idea that the pro is the handicap committee.  I was saying that's part of the problem.

 

I think one thing that should happen is that handicap committees post everyone's score in a tournament(ie club championship, etc.)  That way you have player's scores from events where they are trying posted immediately, and as T scores.  You don't have the convenient "forgetting to post" that is rampant at some clubs.

[jimbo123]

One solution that seems logical to me is just to require players to declare in advance if they are posting.  And then defaulting to a penalty score if you declared you will post and don’t.   Not sure why it isn’t used more widely, maybe there’s some way to game that which I’m missing.  

[Girevik]

I didn't have an email for the handicap committee, so I sent the following e-mail to our club pro and assistant pro.  Hopefully it's valid, and we'll see what kind of response I get.

 

 

Hello Gentlemen,

 

I have some significant concerns about the new rule requiring all sores be posted that I wanted to bring up with you.  I  had these concerns from the first I heard of it, but wanted to do some research to make sure my concerns were valid, and now that is seems that they are I wanted to bring them up.

 

The USGA rules on posting specifically state that only rounds played under the USGA rules of golf may be posted.  This means that any round where someone plays two balls or takes extra shots to practice trouble distances or odd lies (some things cannot be practiced on the range) are not to be posted.  Also, the USGA rules specifically state that a round played in scramble format may not be posted.  Sometime when I play with my kids they want to play a scramble format, and since I would be on the tee sheet this policy would require me to post a score.  It seems to me that the  handicap committee if forcing me to choose between following USGA rules or club rules.

 

I completely understand the importance of posting all legitimate scores, but the committee has effectively prevented me from playing a "practice" round or simply having a fun outing with my family. If the goal is to eliminate artificially high handicaps, I think there are far better ways to do so than to force members to violate USGA posting rules or disallow any round not played under USGA rules.

[Sawgrass]

Please let us know how they respond!

[DaveLeeNC]

@Girevik Very well stated.  dave

[jvincent]

18 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

Please let us know how they respond!

@Girevik also interested in the response. 

[oikos1]

Lol.  Every time I read these handicapping threads it becomes more and more evident why professional tours don't handicap and why across the pond, they express a preference for only tournament rounds to qualify for handicapping purposes.   The system in the U.S. appears fraught with problems when "playing for something".  I mean, how could you possibly ever know who's reporting rounds correctly and who isn't?  It's like a perpetual problem that is always discussed (and I use the term "discussed" generously).

 

Still entertaining to read though so thanks for that. 

[DaveLeeNC]

9 hours ago, oikos1 said:

Lol.  Every time I read these handicapping threads it becomes more and more evident why professional tours don't handicap and .....

 

I do believe that the reason that professional tours are not handicapped has nothing to do with issues of fair handicapping. 

 

dave

[denkea]

9 hours ago, oikos1 said:

I mean, how could you possibly ever know who's reporting rounds correctly and who isn't? 

Pretty simple if enforced.  All Cards need to be signed and attested to qualify for a handicap.

 

 

[RCGA]

The only solution I can see is - only stroke play tournament rounds are counted in net events. If you don't have any tournament rounds, your handicap is halved until you do. 

 

Tired of playing match play events with 20hcps who 3 over through 9 holes with the match all but over.