Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Since this topic has run it's course from my original question, let me ask this.  Which is more common, sandbaggers or vanity cappers.  I'd have to guess that there are far more people that take mulligans, give themselves generous putts, etc. than go out with the intention of sandbagging for the purposes of cheating.

 

My playing partner finally realized, now that we're in a league that uses GHIN handicaps, that his 8 is probably 5 strokes too low and is now paying the price.  Someone mentioned earlier that someone having a great round may hit an extra shot and call it a "practice round".  I'm on the other end, when I blow up the first few holes I'll want to say "well this round is trash, may as well do some practice".

Sto Pro Veritate

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 69
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Also, if you’re playing alone, you’re not supposed to post. I wonder how your club deals with that.   I would send your handicap chair excerpts from the handicap manual describing what shoul

That's an odd policy.   Section 2 of the handicap rules very specifically defines what rounds are acceptable for posting.   Strictly speaking a "practice round" is not defined, but

I do believe that the reason that professional tours are not handicapped has nothing to do with issues of fair handicapping.    dave

1 hour ago, Girevik said:

I would say no, unless the bagger had a horrible day, the honest golfer had his best day, or a combination of both.

 

The way the handicap system is set up, two honest players, regardless of handicap, will be even heads up using handicaps.  If one player is sandbagging, regardless of actual relative handicap, that will give him or her an unfair advantage. 

Just to clarify…..They can have an even match, not necessarily  “will” playing one match.  And should come out about even playing a series of matches.  The problem comes when players identify a sandbagger or vanity cap after seeing one round….or even, as has been posted on wrx,  from seeing just one swing.

WITB
Titleist TSi3 9* PX Riptide CB 60s

Titleist TS3 strong 3 wood 13.5* PX Hzrdus. Smoke 75s

Titleist 818H2 19* hybrid Tensei Blue

Srixon ZX7 5-pw Nippon Pro Modus 125s

Taylormade MG2 50* 54* 58* DG S300

Scotty Cameron Newport Special Select 34” with flow neck by LaMont

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Girevik said:

I would say no, unless the bagger had a horrible day, the honest golfer had his best day, or a combination of both.

 

The way the handicap system is set up, two honest players, regardless of handicap, will be even heads up using handicaps.  If one player is sandbagging, regardless of actual relative handicap, that will give him or her an unfair advantage. 

Just to clarify…..They can have an even match, not necessarily  “will” playing one match.  And should come out about even playing a series of matches.  The problem comes when players identify a sandbagger or vanity cap after seeing one round….or even, as has been posted on wrx,  from seeing just one swing.

And even for one round match play is a different animal.  Two 10’s could play a match and have both play to their handicap and have one get dusted 5&4 or worse.  

WITB
Titleist TSi3 9* PX Riptide CB 60s

Titleist TS3 strong 3 wood 13.5* PX Hzrdus. Smoke 75s

Titleist 818H2 19* hybrid Tensei Blue

Srixon ZX7 5-pw Nippon Pro Modus 125s

Taylormade MG2 50* 54* 58* DG S300

Scotty Cameron Newport Special Select 34” with flow neck by LaMont

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Just to clarify…..They can have an even match, not necessarily  “will” playing one match.  And should come out about even playing a series of matches.  The problem comes when players identify a sandbagger or vanity cap after seeing one round….or even, as has been posted on wrx,  from seeing just one swing.

 

Could you clarify further? My expectation is that it will not come out even over a series of matches. Rather, given that lower caps have lower score variability, if both players are representing accurate caps, the lower cap will generally win a series by a small margin.

 

In other words, as handicap represents a player's potential, over the course of time, a lower cap will reach their potential more often than a higher cap.

Edited by JeffreySpicoli
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, JeffreySpicoli said:

 Rather, given that lower caps have lower score variability, if both players are representing accurate caps, the lower cap will generally win a series by a small margin.

 

Man, do I wish that were true. My scoring record is all over the place right now.

Cobra RAD Speed 9* : Ventus Blue 6-S

Cobra RAD Speed 3W : Graphite Design AD TP8-S

Cobra ForgedTec 3-iron : Ventus Blue HB 8-S

Srixon Z785 4-PW : Nippon Modus3 120-S

Cleveland RTX3 50, 54: Nippon 115-S Wedge

Cobra MIM Black 58 : Nippon 125-S Wedge

Piretti Potenza 370g : Breakthrough Technology Stability Shaft - 34"

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, JeffreySpicoli said:

 

Could you clarify further? My expectation is that it will not come out even over a series of matches. Rather, given that lower caps have lower score variability, if both players are representing accurate caps, the lower cap will generally win a series by a small margin.

 

In other words, as handicap represents a player's potential, over the course of time, a lower cap will reach their potential more often than a higher cap.

About is a big word in that sentence. The old handicap system used a 96% multiplier that favored the lower handicap players. The 8 of 20 replacing the 10 of 20 accomplishes nearly the same result.  
I recall reading that in 100 matches a 10 playing a scratch it would be approximately 55/45 scratch to 10 wins but don’t quote me on that as I do not recall the source. I would call the 55/45 “about” even.

  The USGA does want lower handicap players rewarded-slightly.  There absolutely should be a benefit to working at your game and improving.

  • Like 2

WITB
Titleist TSi3 9* PX Riptide CB 60s

Titleist TS3 strong 3 wood 13.5* PX Hzrdus. Smoke 75s

Titleist 818H2 19* hybrid Tensei Blue

Srixon ZX7 5-pw Nippon Pro Modus 125s

Taylormade MG2 50* 54* 58* DG S300

Scotty Cameron Newport Special Select 34” with flow neck by LaMont

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

About is a big word in that sentence. The old handicap system used a 96% multiplier that favored the lower handicap players. The 8 of 20 replacing the 10 of 20 accomplishes nearly the same result.  
I recall reading that in 100 matches a 10 playing a scratch it would be approximately 55/45 scratch to 10 wins but don’t quote me on that as I do not recall the source. I would call the 55/45 “about” even.

  The USGA does want lower handicap players rewarded-slightly.  There absolutely should be a benefit to working at your game and improving.

That's what I remember being kicked around.  Stroke play is not so favorable and for Stableford the high caps rule.

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

That's what I remember being kicked around.  Stroke play is not so favorable and for Stableford the high caps rule.

Argh! Had a reply about done and hit the wrong dang button and lost it.

 

To clarify your comment further ……in a field of 50 bogey golfers(~18 handicap) and 50 scratch players the winners would be dominated by the higher caps due to their relative score volatility.  That is why the USGA suggests various percentages of handicaps be used depending on the format.  It is an attempt to even out where the winners will come from.

  • Like 1

WITB
Titleist TSi3 9* PX Riptide CB 60s

Titleist TS3 strong 3 wood 13.5* PX Hzrdus. Smoke 75s

Titleist 818H2 19* hybrid Tensei Blue

Srixon ZX7 5-pw Nippon Pro Modus 125s

Taylormade MG2 50* 54* 58* DG S300

Scotty Cameron Newport Special Select 34” with flow neck by LaMont

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Random thoughts:

  • As mentioned the "bonus for excellence" multiplier of .96 is history. That provided a real advantage for a lower handicap player in a series of comps. (Anything can happen in a one-off comp. And typically in a large field tournament, one or more of the mid to higher handicap players will have a good day making it difficult for a low/scratch handicapper to win.) In general, but not always, lower guys tend to be less erratic and have fewer adjustments to their hole scores. 
  • The USGA used to say vanity caps were much more prevalent - 2 to 3 times the number of sandbaggers. But some of this depends on the culture of the golf club. 
  • The USGA has a ton of stats in the handicap system but they don't like to produce any analysis. Very strange. Especially now as more clubs and associations are using golf genius software. I would like to see numbers for players who play a lot and post at least 15-20 rounds per season. 
  • Consider those who post 5 or fewer rounds in a season. First, is the scoring record accurate? Or have they played more and not posted? If they have played only a few times, is the handicap accurate? Can it be? The entire thing is a mixed bag.
  • The bottom line is US handicaps work best in smaller groups where players know each other and play together often. It will stay that way until it changes to attested competition rounds. (Which is highly unlikely.)
  • Like 3

Fit at Totally Driven:
Titleist TS3 9.5, Oban Devotion 6, 05 flex 65g
TM M4 Tour 3W, Oban Devotion 7, 05 flex 75g
TM R15 TP #3 (19*), Fujikura Speeder 869 X
Mizuno JPX 900 Forged 4-PW, KBS C-Taper X
Mizuno JPX 919 Forged GW, KBS C-Taper X
Vokey Wedges - SM8 56.12 & 60.08 S400
Newport 2.5

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Our picks

    • Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Discussion and Links
      Please put any question or comments here.
       
      Links to the galleries...
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #1
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #2
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #3
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #4
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #5
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #6
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #7
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #8
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #9
       
      Adam Svensson with new model of Puma golf shoes - 2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry)
       


       
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #1
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #2
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #3
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #4
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #5
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #6
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #7
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #8
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #9
       
      Adam Svensson with new model of Puma golf shoes - 2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry)
       

       
        • Like
      • 4 replies
    • 2021 Palmetto Championship @ Congaree - Discussion and Links
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       

       
      2021 Palmetto Championship @ Congaree - Tuesday #1
      2021 Palmetto Championship @ Congaree - Tuesday #2
      2021 Palmetto Championship @ Congaree - Tuesday #3
      2021 Palmetto Championship @ Congaree - Tuesday #4
      2021 Palmetto Championship @ Congaree - Tuesday #5
      2021 Palmetto Championship @ Congaree - Tuesday #6
       
       

       
       
      Bryson Nimmer's Bettinardi putter - 2021 Palmetto Championship @ Congaree
      Dustin Johnson's got the putter try-outs going on - 2021 Palmetto Championship @ Congaree
      Scotty Cameron putters - 2021 Palmetto Championship @ Congaree
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 35 replies
    • 2021 Memorial - Discussion & Links
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       

       
      2021 Memorial - Tuesday #1
      2021 Memorial - Tuesday #2
      2021 Memorial - Tuesday #3
      2021 Memorial - Tuesday #4
      2021 Memorial - Tuesday #5
      2021 Memorial - Tuesday #6
      2021 Memorial - Tuesday #7
      2021 Memorial - Tuesday #8
      2021 Memorial - Tuesday #9
       
       
       

       
       
       

       
      Piretti putter & cover for Hideki - 2021 Memorial
      Odyssey putters - 2021 Memorial
      New Odyssey (play like a kid) putter over - 2021 Memorial
      Bettinardi putters & covers - 2021 Memorial
      Ben An's Cameron putter - 2021 Memorial
       
       
      • 27 replies
    • 2021 Charles Schwab Challenge  - Discussion & Links
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       

       
      2021 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #1
      2021 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #2
      2021 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #3
      2021 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #4
      2021 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #5
      2021 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #6
      2021 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #7
       
       

       
      2021 Charles Schwab Challenge winner will get this Power wagon
      Eric Compton testing Axis 1 putter - 2021 Charles Schwab Challenge
      Cameron putter and new cover - 2021 Charles Schwab Challenge
       
       
      • 7 replies
    • Phil Mickelson Winning WITB from the 2021 PGA Championship
      Phil Mickelson's Winning What's In The Bag? 
       
      Driver: Callaway Epic Speed Triple Diamond (6 degrees @5.5 , green dot cog) Fujikura Ventus Black 6 X (47.9 inches)
      2-wood: TaylorMade “Original One” Mini Driver (11.5 degrees) Fujikura Ventus Black 7 X
      4-wood: (Sunday only): Callaway Mavrik Sub Zero (16.5 degrees) Fujikura Ventus Blue 8 X
      Irons: Callaway X Forged UT (16) (Thursday-Saturday), Callaway X21 UT Proto (19 degrees @20.5, 25), Callaway Apex MB ‘21 (small groove) (6-PW) Shafts- 16* MCA MMT 105 TX, KBS Tour V 125 S+
      Wedges: Callaway PM Grind ’19 “Raw” ([email protected]*, 55-12*, 60-10*) Shafts: KBS Tour V 125 S+
      Putter: Odyssey Milled Blade “Phil Mickelson” SuperStroke Pistol GT Tour
      Ball: Callaway Chrome Soft X (Triple Track)
      Grips: Golf Pride MCC
       
      Link to more pics on the front-page... https://www.golfwrx.com/654804/phil-mickelson-witb-2021-may-pga-championship/
       

       
       
        • Thanks
        • Like
      • 86 replies

×
×
  • Create New...