Rolling vs. Lift, Clean and Place

[SkiSchoolPro]

In your mind, is there a difference? I.e. If your Pro tells you on the 1st tee that rolling the ball in your own fairway is allowed for an early season league event, would you interpret this as allowing LCP or only allowing use of your club to improve your lie?

[davep043]

13 minutes ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

In your mind, is there a difference? I.e. If your Pro tells you on the 1st tee that rolling the ball in your own fairway is allowed for an early season league event, would you interpret this as allowing LCP or only allowing use of your club to improve your lie?

To me that kind of direction is so unclear that I'd ask the same question you asked, before teeing off.  I know there's no model local rule for "rolling", so it seems logical to assume he means LCP, but its worth clarifying.

[Hawkeye77]

Haha, our folks are so adept at rolling it wouldn't even occur to them to actually pick up and clean the ball - "you can't do that!", lol.

[antip]

44 minutes ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

In your mind, is there a difference? I.e. If your Pro tells you on the 1st tee that rolling the ball in your own fairway is allowed for an early season league event, would you interpret this as allowing LCP or only allowing use of your club to improve your lie?

Perhaps it means rolling it with your todger?

[SkiSchoolPro]

44 minutes ago, davep043 said:

To me that kind of direction is so unclear that I'd ask the same question you asked, before teeing off.  I know there's no model local rule for "rolling", so it seems logical to assume he means LCP, but its worth clarifying.

Actually, I didn't ask the question week 1 and assumed LCP. Week 2, he said we were allowed to roll 1 more week, but NO LIFTING AND CLEANING. I was surprised by this distinction and told him I LCP the few times I was in the fairway week 1.

[LeoLeo99]

If he meant LCP, he'd have said LCP.  Rolling means rolling.  Usually one club head distance, no touching the ball with your hand.  It's an unwritten rule.  😉

[bcski]

Op, I am with you.  As I have never played where a local rule stated "rolling the ball" is permitted. The pro gave ambiguous advice and left it up to the individual players to interpret it.  Hopefully your pro learned from this.

[limegreengent]

Two Comments.

1.You may wish to ask a Club Professional for guidance but never rely On his answers.

It is your responsibility to find out what local rules apply.

2 .There is no such thing as an unwritten rule in this context.

 

😂😂😂

[Augster]

Wow. I’ve never seen where “rolling the ball” literally meant rolling the ball. I’ve heard “roll it” and “play it up” to mean LCP but it’s just slang for LCP. 
 

So if you have a mudball, which is usually what LCP is in effect to reduce, do you just roll it back and forth until the mud comes off a little? LCP takes care of bad lies in the fairway and mud balls. 
 

Learn something new every day. 

[SkiSchoolPro]

37 minutes ago, limegreengent said:

Two Comments.

1.You may wish to ask a Club Professional for guidance but never rely On his answers.

It is your responsibility to find out what local rules apply.

2 .There is no such thing as an unwritten rule in this context.

 

😂😂😂

He and the other assistant run the league which has no other committee. Prizes are pro shop credit which they issue. With that said,

 

1. If I can't rely on his answers, who's should I rely on. Who is in charge of what local rules apply and is there a method/standard place that the USGA requires them to be made available?

 

2. So next week, if he gives us verbal instructions on the first tee, what am I suppose to do..."Hey, do you mind going back to the pro shop and print that up before we tee off?"

 

Overall, I think this league is better run than the last league I played in that did provide a weekly sheet describing the game and local rules, but suffered from multiple other issues (including miscalculating handicaps).

[MtlJeff]

I have played in events where "rolling" was allowed but touching the ball was not

 

Local rules man....

[rogolf]

When I was learning to play (last century!), we played "winter rules", meaning you could improve the lie of your ball on the fairway within six inches (the size of the scorecard) by rolling the ball with the clubhead only.

Edited June 10, 2021 by rogolf

[SNIPERBBB]

I think the rolling thing came about to save seniors from bending over as many times. It's functionally the same thing as LCP at our course.

[limegreengent]

Guys

Anyone can run a competitive game - me - you- jack bloggs- or your local pro.

If you decide to enter then you commit to play in that event according to their rules.

 

If you are playing in a competition according to the Rules of Golf  ( as is usually run by the golf clubs) then those rules apply.

There is no such defined term as "rolling" or unwritten rules.😂

Winter rules-

What does that mean .

The local rule used to combat adverse conditions is not the same for every club and needs to be clearly spelt out.

 

This site discusses the rules of golf  ,- We do not possess the ability to mindread and thus cannot properly comment on the intentions of other who run  casual games. 😂😂

Edited June 10, 2021 by limegreengent

[rp4golf]

4 hours ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

In your mind, is there a difference? I.e. If your Pro tells you on the 1st tee that rolling the ball in your own fairway is allowed for an early season league event, would you interpret this as allowing LCP or only allowing use of your club to improve your lie?

I'm puzzled as to why there would be any confusion.

[rogolf]

21 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

I think the rolling thing came about to save seniors from bending over as many times. It's functionally the same thing as LCP at our course.

It was really meant to prevent the players from getting their hands on the ball, preventing the "appearance of evil".

[Sawgrass]

The rules of golf demand placement instead of club head rolling, which makes perfect sense when you consider that with preferred lies you’re only allowed one “place” and if the ball thereafter moves due to natural forces you must play it as it lies. Rolling obscures or confounds this “one and done” aspect — I’m good with the official rule despite the fact that I no longer easily bend down!

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, limegreengent said:

Guys

Anyone can run a competitive game - me - you- jack bloggs- or your local pro.

If you decide to enter then you commit to play in that event according to their rules.

 

If you are playing in a competition according to the Rules of Golf  ( as is usually run by the golf clubs) then those rules apply.

There is no such defined term as "rolling" or unwritten rules.😂

Winter rules-

What does that mean .

The local rule used to combat adverse conditions is not the same for every club and needs to be clearly spelt out.

 

This site discusses the rules of golf  ,- We do not possess the ability to mindread and thus cannot properly comment on the intentions of other who run  casual games. 😂😂

 

My understanding is Winter Rules = Preferred lies = LCP.

 

In the late 80's when I re-joined my old club they played LCR (Lift, Clean, Roll (with club)) on your OWN fairway or any fringe (NO fairway on par 3s) only.

 

The fairways were routinely SO bad and rock hard that it was often difficult to find any grass on the fairway. I guess the "roll" with the club part was to provide some little bit of randomness.

 

Not that that worked as guys would sometimes spend literally 30 seconds to get the ball fluffed up exactly where they wanted it.

 

When I got into the Committee I got them to change it to LCP because too much time was wasted using a club to prop it up.

 

Fortunately the golf course began to put some money into the place and the fairways got much better so we began playing it down all the time except when LCP was actually called for.

[antip]

10 hours ago, SkiSchoolPro said:

He and the other assistant run the league which has no other committee. Prizes are pro shop credit which they issue. With that said,

 

1. If I can't rely on his answers, who's should I rely on. Who is in charge of what local rules apply and is there a method/standard place that the USGA requires them to be made available?

 

2. So next week, if he gives us verbal instructions on the first tee, what am I suppose to do..."Hey, do you mind going back to the pro shop and print that up before we tee off?"

 

Overall, I think this league is better run than the last league I played in that did provide a weekly sheet describing the game and local rules, but suffered from multiple other issues (including miscalculating handicaps).

There's no prescription from Ruling Bodies on precisely how local rules are to be made available, but the likelihood of them being more consistently known and observed is enhanced if they are written down and posted/made available somewhere. You could encourage them to put them down on paper, it would significantly reduce the risk of misunderstandings and problems that might bite them.

Edited June 11, 2021 by antip
small addition

[Newby]

6 hours ago, antip said:

There's no prescription from Ruling Bodies on precisely how local rules are to be made available, but the likelihood of them being more consistently known and observed is enhanced if they are written down and posted/made available somewhere. You could encourage them to put them down on paper, it would significantly reduce the risk of misunderstandings and problems that might bite them.

Have I misunderstood but are you suggesting that committees are able to make their own local rules?

[antip]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

Have I misunderstood but are you suggesting that committees are able to make their own local rules?

I'm not suggesting anything. I am saying the Rules do not prescribe the mechanism a Committee must use to tell anyone about the local rules they have decided upon. 

[davep043]

5 hours ago, Newby said:

Have I misunderstood but are you suggesting that committees are able to make their own local rules?

For better or for worse, there are golf clubs, professionals, leagues, committees, who are either unaware that Local Rules are limited under the Rules of Golf, or who simply don't care.  They are going to do what they want, the RoG be damned.  I think that when these "nonstandard" local rules are used, it is even more critical that they be written down so everyone understands.  Perhaps this falls under the "Etiquette" part of this forum heading, rather than "Rules".

 

[Hawkeye77]

3 hours ago, antip said:

I'm not suggesting anything. I am saying the Rules do not prescribe the mechanism a Committee must use to tell anyone about the local rules they have decided upon. 

USGA says this:  "The Committee needs to make sure that any Local Rules are available for players to see, whether on the scorecard, a separate handout, a notice board or the course’s website." 

I don't know if R&A has something different, and not sure what you mean by "mechanism" in this context, so not sure if this answers your concern, but seems like it's on the players to check those sources at the particular club to see if anything is there by way of local rules.

 

Edit:  Sorry, that's in paragraph 3 under our local rules section of the rules, forgot to be specific!

Edited June 11, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[antip]

25 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

USGA says this:  "The Committee needs to make sure that any Local Rules are available for players to see, whether on the scorecard, a separate handout, a notice board or the course’s website." 

I don't know if R&A has something different, and not sure what you mean by "mechanism" in this context, so not sure if this answers your concern, but seems like it's on the players to check those sources at the particular club to see if anything is there by way of local rules.

 

Edit:  Sorry, that's in paragraph 3 under our local rules section of the rules, forgot to be specific!

Yes, that reference is the general guidance - it indicates that the LRs need to made available rather than saying you need to do X. Reference is Committee Procedures 5C first paragraph, all jointly authored by the USGA and the R&A.

[bcski]

Yes, any club can enact it's own local rules.  They are private entities with no legal restrictions as far as the R&A or the USGA goes.

 

If you want STRICT rules from the two main governing bodies, your best bet is to play on one of the professional tours.

 

Remember the local rules are enacted for that courses regular players, not Tour events.  

[Sawgrass]

1 hour ago, bcski said:

Yes, any club can enact it's own local rules.  They are private entities with no legal restrictions as far as the R&A or the USGA goes.

 

If you want STRICT rules from the two main governing bodies, your best bet is to play on one of the professional tours.

 

Remember the local rules are enacted for that courses regular players, not Tour events.  

The rules of golf, and associated authorized local rules, are meant for everyone to enjoy.  

[Hawkeye77]

4 hours ago, bcski said:

Yes, any club can enact it's own local rules.  They are private entities with no legal restrictions as far as the R&A or the USGA goes.

 

If you want STRICT rules from the two main governing bodies, your best bet is to play on one of the professional tours.

 

Remember the local rules are enacted for that courses regular players, not Tour events.  

 

Tours use/have events that are subject to local rules.

 

If you want a legitimate handicap then yes, follow the strict rules of USGA and R&A.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Hawkeye77

[Mudguard]

On 6/12/2021 at 1:32 AM, bcski said:

Yes, any club can enact it's own local rules.  They are private entities with no legal restrictions as far as the R&A or the USGA goes.

 

If you want STRICT rules from the two main governing bodies, your best bet is to play on one of the professional tours.

 

Remember the local rules are enacted for that courses regular players, not Tour events.  

Well that's great if you need a handicap to enter something and they find out your course doesn't play by the rules of golf. Sorry, no entry for you. 

It's like clean and place through the general area. If you want a decent lie in winter then hit the bloody fairway. 

[PhilsFanDrew]

Rolling is to improve your lie in the fairway.  Perhaps your ball landed right on the edge of a divot or right on a side slope but if you roll it right a couple inches you get a more level lie.  LCP is to make sure there is no mud on the ball or to get the ball out of a ball mark if the fairways are soft.

Edited June 17, 2021 by PhilsFanDrew

[antip]

On 6/11/2021 at 3:37 AM, Sawgrass said:

The rules of golf demand placement instead of club head rolling, which makes perfect sense when you consider that with preferred lies you’re only allowed one “place” and if the ball thereafter moves due to natural forces you must play it as it lies. Rolling obscures or confounds this “one and done” aspect — I’m good with the official rule despite the fact that I no longer easily bend down!

I'd like to emphasize this point Sawgrass makes: the rules, interpretations and Committee Procedures are clear that a ball  cannot be put into play in any circumstances by a player physically rolling the ball. Any clubs or pros that suggest or issue local rules otherwise are operating outside the Rules of Golf. I don't think it is over-dramatising it to suggest it would be equivalent to saying don't worry about the line of the tee markers too much, anywhere near enough is good enough.