Rolling vs. Lift, Clean and Place

[rogolf]

3 hours ago, antip said:

I'd like to emphasize this point Sawgrass makes: the rules, interpretations and Committee Procedures are clear that a ball  cannot be put into play in any circumstances by a player physically rolling the ball. Any clubs or pros that suggest or issue local rules otherwise are operating outside the Rules of Golf. I don't think it is over-dramatising it to suggest it would be equivalent to saying don't worry about the line of the tee markers too much, anywhere near enough is good enough.

As I said earlier, when I was learning to play, rolling was the prescribed method of "winter rules".  At that time, allowing a player to physically touch or lift his ball in play was not permitted.  Avoid the appearance of evil!

[4x4GGG]

Wow. Y'all are intense. 

 

I used to play in an annual scramble for Ocean City bartenders. It was put together by a bar called Bull on the Beach. One of the holes required the players to hit their ball onto a par 3 using a tennis racquet. On another hole you could pay to move up tee boxes. I put a ball in the hole from 50 yards one year. Hole in one baby! They also allowed for Mulligans! 

 

Looking back, having competed in these events, is my 14.1 HCP now unofficial and I should be barred from all golf events? 

[antip]

48 minutes ago, 4x4GGG said:

Wow. Y'all are intense. 

 

I used to play in an annual scramble for Ocean City bartenders. It was put together by a bar called Bull on the Beach. One of the holes required the players to hit their ball onto a par 3 using a tennis racquet. On another hole you could pay to move up tee boxes. I put a ball in the hole from 50 yards one year. Hole in one baby! They also allowed for Mulligans! 

 

Looking back, having competed in these events, is my 14.1 HCP now unofficial and I should be barred from all golf events? 

Circus events are there for all to enjoy - have at it. Or are you suggesting your 14.1 hcp is based on using a tennis racquet?

[antip]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

As I said earlier, when I was learning to play, rolling was the prescribed method of "winter rules".  At that time, allowing a player to physically touch or lift his ball in play was not permitted.  Avoid the appearance of evil!

Yep, and then there was the stymie....

[4x4GGG]

10 minutes ago, antip said:

Circus events are there for all to enjoy - have at it. Or are you suggesting your 14.1 hcp is based on using a tennis racquet?

Not at all. But the OP in this case stated that the roll rule is part of a fun mens league and the rules are set by the club pro, without keeping HCP. I'm just amazed there's no such thing as a fun round or practice round. 

I sent a snap last week playing a vacation round where I said "#cheating" while I rolled my ball out of a fairway rip. I didn't count the score, but apparently I need to have my golf card pulled for it. 

[Newby]

1 minute ago, 4x4GGG said:

I didn't count the score, but apparently I need to have my golf card pulled for it. 

Who told you that?

[antip]

51 minutes ago, 4x4GGG said:

Not at all. But the OP in this case stated that the roll rule is part of a fun mens league and the rules are set by the club pro, without keeping HCP. I'm just amazed there's no such thing as a fun round or practice round. 

I sent a snap last week playing a vacation round where I said "#cheating" while I rolled my ball out of a fairway rip. I didn't count the score, but apparently I need to have my golf card pulled for it. 

Not the way it works in my neck of the woods, practice/fun stuff is fine, no requirement to submit cards outside of competition golf.

[Mr. Bean]

13 hours ago, PhilsFanDrew said:

Rolling is to improve your lie in the fairway.  Perhaps your ball landed right on the edge of a divot or right on a side slope but if you roll it right a couple inches you get a more level lie.  LCP is to make sure there is no mud on the ball or to get the ball out of a ball mark if the fairways are soft.

 

What you wrote is not quite correct.

 

Lift, Clean & Place is used whenever the fairways are in less than pristine conditions, i.e. lots of bare spots or divot holes. So it is there to give a player free relief from a troublesome spot. If the problem is mud adhering to a ball the Committee might use Lift, Clean & Replace meaning a player may clean their ball but does not get any other relief e.g. from a poor lie.

 

A ball embedded in its own pitch mark is covered by Rule 16.3 and a free relief if granted throughout the General Area, that is also outside the fairways.

 

Rolling is not covered by the Rules, as already stated by others. In fact, it is explicitly forbidden in Rule 14.2b(2) via the Model Local Rule of LCP.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, antip said:

Not the way it works in my neck of the woods, practice/fun stuff is fine, no requirement to submit cards outside of competition golf.

 

Same here and that is according to our version of WHS. Once you want to play a handicap round you must declare it to your marker before commencing that round. You cannot decide during or after the round that you want the score to be posted. Unfortunately some people still do that.

 

So no problem in playing any kinds of practice rounds around here.

[Newby]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Once you want to play a handicap round you must declare it to your marker before commencing that round. You cannot decide during or after the round that you want the score to be posted.

We can register in the pro-shop or as most do, register on an app before starting the 'casual/general play' round.

[PhilsFanDrew]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

What you wrote is not quite correct.

 

Lift, Clean & Place is used whenever the fairways are in less than pristine conditions, i.e. lots of bare spots or divot holes. So it is there to give a player free relief from a troublesome spot. If the problem is mud adhering to a ball the Committee might use Lift, Clean & Replace meaning a player may clean their ball but does not get any other relief e.g. from a poor lie.

 

A ball embedded in its own pitch mark is covered by Rule 16.3 and a free relief if granted throughout the General Area, that is also outside the fairways.

 

Rolling is not covered by the Rules, as already stated by others. In fact, it is explicitly forbidden in Rule 14.2b(2) via the Model Local Rule of LCP.

 

Yes I know that rolling is not allowed by official rules.  It's just something many mid-higher handicap weekend golfers do when they hit the fairway that is different than LCP.  Some even roll the ball for a superstitious reason like they don't want to see the ball logo when looking down at it. 

[Mr. Bean]

21 minutes ago, Newby said:

We can register in the pro-shop or as most do, register on an app before starting the 'casual/general play' round.

 

But you need to inform your marker regardless.

[Mr. Bean]

20 minutes ago, PhilsFanDrew said:

 

Yes I know that rolling is not allowed by official rules.  It's just something many mid-higher handicap weekend golfers do when they hit the fairway that is different than LCP.  Some even roll the ball for a superstitious reason like they don't want to see the ball logo when looking down at it. 

 

Isn't it funny? Virtually nobody does it around here. At least not on a handicap round.

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[Sawgrass]

8 hours ago, 4x4GGG said:

Not at all. But the OP in this case stated that the roll rule is part of a fun mens league and the rules are set by the club pro, without keeping HCP. I'm just amazed there's no such thing as a fun round or practice round. 

I sent a snap last week playing a vacation round where I said "#cheating" while I rolled my ball out of a fairway rip. I didn't count the score, but apparently I need to have my golf card pulled for it. 

 

9 hours ago, 4x4GGG said:

Wow. Y'all are intense. 

 

I used to play in an annual scramble for Ocean City bartenders. It was put together by a bar called Bull on the Beach. One of the holes required the players to hit their ball onto a par 3 using a tennis racquet. On another hole you could pay to move up tee boxes. I put a ball in the hole from 50 yards one year. Hole in one baby! They also allowed for Mulligans! 

 

Looking back, having competed in these events, is my 14.1 HCP now unofficial and I should be barred from all golf events? 

I know who I think is too intense!

[chippa13]

15 hours ago, antip said:

I'd like to emphasize this point Sawgrass makes: the rules, interpretations and Committee Procedures are clear that a ball  cannot be put into play in any circumstances by a player physically rolling the ball. Any clubs or pros that suggest or issue local rules otherwise are operating outside the Rules of Golf. I don't think it is over-dramatising it to suggest it would be equivalent to saying don't worry about the line of the tee markers too much, anywhere near enough is good enough.

You are allowed I believe 2 club lengths back from the line of the tee markers. I often employ that if there's no good ground between the markers to stand on or any good lies left there.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, chippa13 said:

You are allowed I believe 2 club lengths back from the line of the tee markers. I often employ that if there's no good ground between the markers to stand on or any good lies left there.

 

I fail to see your point here. The Teeing Area has its limits and I believe that is what antip was referring to.

 

Edited June 18, 2021 by Mr. Bean

[smashdn]

21 hours ago, PhilsFanDrew said:

Rolling is to improve your lie in the fairway.  Perhaps your ball landed right on the edge of a divot or right on a side slope but if you roll it right a couple inches you get a more level lie.  LCP is to make sure there is no mud on the ball or to get the ball out of a ball mark if the fairways are soft.

 

I see no reason why there is a need for "rolling."  If indeed rolling is just to get a better lie.  If there is a need to roll it due to some course condition, I would think it would always be appropriate to LCP.

 

There are plenty of other rules that could be applied.  Ground under repair and casual water come to mind.  If you got turf problems the local rule should be "so and so fairways (maybe the whole course) is GUR, proceed to nearest relief no closer and drop."  If you have mud problems then either play everywhere LCP or the one area or hole with issues as LCP.

 

I don't think "rolling" should ever be sanctioned.  Either play it down or play it under a recognized alternative such as full relief and drop or lift, clean, and place.

[ChipNRun]

If your group is playing a tournament after a couple of days of rain, bring up the issue of Lift, Clean and Place.

 

The area amateur circuit had a season-opener in early May at a really decent course. Only problem, the fairway landing areas on the lower portion of the course were pretty chewed up, mushy but not casual water. We were told LCP wasn't necessary, the course was draining nicely.

 

The tees were forward on one par 5. I hit a 7W over the dogleg corner and landed in the mushy fairway about 15 yards short of the creek - ideal position! But, the ball had rolled into a big divot gouge with grass behind the ball. I ended up taking a 7i and hitting it over the creek, ball only flew about 50 yards.

 

Near end got more mushy fairway. On No. 16, I got two consecutive mud balls, and No. 17 another ball in a muddy divot mark.

 

Post-round, my group brought up LCP with the organizers, and they said, "Yea, we need to consider that for the future."

Edited July 6, 2021 by ChipNRun

[larrybud]

On 6/10/2021 at 8:47 AM, SkiSchoolPro said:

Actually, I didn't ask the question week 1 and assumed LCP. Week 2, he said we were allowed to roll 1 more week, but NO LIFTING AND CLEANING. I was surprised by this distinction and told him I LCP the few times I was in the fairway week 1.

 

So you just roll it around til the big chunks of dirt fall off.