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Maltby Ratings - Game Improvement vs Players Distance


Lefty87
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I hate to start another Maltby thread, but I’m really intrigued by some of the numbers I’m seeing. Im currently gaming the Apex DCB’s and I’m looking for something with a smaller profile. I noticed the playability factor of the Titleist T200 is 690 while the DCB is 614. I can’t imagine the T200 is more forgiving than the DCB? Am I missing something? 

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They’re very close.  I’ve read that to feel a difference in forgiveness the delta needs to be at least 100.  Looks don’t matter to the equation, just the mass and dimensional characteristics.

c-dim T200 1.362 DCB 1.356 larger is more forgiving per the concept 

Actual vcg T200 0.746 DCB 0.798 lower is more forgiving 

Right cog T200 0.503 DCB 0.521 larger is more forgiving

MOI T200 14.5313  DCB 12.8287. Larger is more forgiving 

 

I would add that I went from Ping GMax irons, 900+ mpf, to Maltby TS-1s, 711 Mpf and the biggest thing I’ve noticed is a slightly less forgiveness on bad toe hits and the club will try to twist a little (I mean a little) more on poor strikes.  However I actually think my striking has improved with the smaller head.  

 

Edited by NCDuffer
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10 minutes ago, BogeyParBogey said:

Use the measurements for what attributes support what you need and not the playability number.

 

Dave

I’m admittedly ignorant to many of the measurements. My miss tends to be lower and/or towards the toe. Can you tell me what I should be looking for? Much appreciated. 

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6 hours ago, Lefty87 said:

I’m admittedly ignorant to many of the measurements. My miss tends to be lower and/or towards the toe. Can you tell me what I should be looking for? Much appreciated. 

C-dim and Vcog. You should probably look for iron with bigger c-dim and lower vcog. Btw those are the parameters that influences the overall score the most.

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10 hours ago, Lefty87 said:

I’m admittedly ignorant to many of the measurements. My miss tends to be lower and/or towards the toe. Can you tell me what I should be looking for? Much appreciated. 

Simply speaking c-dim is sweet spot from hosel and v-cog is sweet spot from sole.

 

Keep in mind the vcog of a golf ball is .840 and thats what the measurements are based off

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1 hour ago, Red4282 said:

Cdim is the measurement from the inside hosel to the sweet spot or center of gravity. In theory the lower that measurement, the harder the iron is to hit because to hit this spot you are getting closer and closer to the hosel the smaller the number. Two things impact this. A big tungsten toe weight can increase the cdim. The larger the blade length, the larger the cdim will be naturally. 
 

vcog, or vertical center of gravity is just how low the cog is. Helps get the ball airborne easier and is generally more forgiving on low strikes.

 

rcog or rearward center of gravity, is how far back off the face the cog is. The larger that number generally means more forgiveness as it increasa moi.

 

moi is just the resistance to twisting on off center hits. Affected by all of the above. The higher the number the more forgiving theoretically.

 

i agree dont look at the mpf ratings as how they determine that is their own formula that can be disputed. But these measurement above can tell you alot when comparing two heads.

Excellent. Thank you!!

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My personal opinion is that Maltby is doing a great service to the industry as a whole and the information is useful to the end user.

That said, in this case Callaway is trying to create a club that’s inherently contrary to Maltby’s definition of forgiving. They want the appearance, mass concentration, and turf interaction advantages of a smaller head (which will measure “badly”) and are instead increasing MOI and launch angle by adding mass further back and lower than normal for an iron.

As you say, the T200 may be a better fit in some regards, but it’s not necessarily a slam dunk IMO.

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41 minutes ago, Lefty87 said:

I also find it interesting that the ratings are missing some pretty important clubs...i500, most of the PXG’s...does the manufacturer have to supply this information for Maltby, or does Maltby develop the measurements themselves? 

 

GolfWorks are actually measuring the heads themselves.  They're not using supplied information.

 

The i500 are included:

image.png.7e0d1f0e357e0a8b5e9d4e54237ff576.png

 

PXG only have four listings might be a question of availability, what they have access to....

 

Edited by NRJyzr
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The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: Original One 11.5* (tuned down), NV75 X -or- SpeedZone 10.5*, Aldila ProtoPype 80S, <44" TBD

3w: King LTD, Aldila RIP Beta 90 X -or- TM Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 X
Hybrid:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour 2h or 3h, NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S

Irons grab bag:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4; 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, SteelFiber i125 S -or- Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; PM Grind 19 58* -or- Wilson Staff PMP 58*, Dynamic S
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34" -or- Cleveland Huntington Beach #1, 34.5" -or- Golden Ram TW Custom, 34"
Balls: Wilson Staff Duo Professional, TaylorMade TP5, Chrome Soft custom TruVis

GripMaster Roo or Kidd leather grips

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I played the T200s previously and they are really good irons, no complaints.  I'm using Apex 21s now and I don't think there's much difference in playability, etc.  So I wouldn't think you will notice enough in the T200s vs your current irons to warrant a change unless the shaft difference or something in the sole design makes one better over the other.  I'd sure suggest to go hit the T200s off grass, etc before pulling the trigger on them.  

SIM2 Autoflex 505
Ping G410 5 wood
Ping G410 7 & 9 woods 

Titleist T100S 6-gap 
54* SM8
Sub70 JB low bounce 58* or SM8 58*
PXG Operator H

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24 minutes ago, larryd3 said:

I played the T200s previously and they are really good irons, no complaints.  I'm using Apex 21s now and I don't think there's much difference in playability, etc.  So I wouldn't think you will notice enough in the T200s vs your current irons to warrant a change unless the shaft difference or something in the sole design makes one better over the other.  I'd sure suggest to go hit the T200s off grass, etc before pulling the trigger on them.  

Thanks, Larry. My reason for wanting to move on from the DCB is that the size is much bigger than what I’m use to. The forgiveness benefits certainly don’t seem comparable to the size. I’ve played smaller heads like the p790 and i500, which seemed just as forgiving but in a much better package. 
 

The top line and sole are both really thick, and I’m not loving the turf interaction. Hence why I’m looking into the T200. It looks like it offers similar performance benefits in a much more appealing package. Although, at this point, it seems like I should wait for the new T200 to come out in the fall. 

Edited by Lefty87
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If forgiveness is what you're after, the Ping G series stands at the top.  They've *really* pushed the envelope in terms of MOI.  I would think the G410 or G425 could maybe be worth a look, if forgiveness is what you're after.

 

In MOI terms, the difference in forgiveness of the G410/G425 and the T200 is greater than the difference between the T200 and about any current blade offering.  Actually, just about any blade offering that isn't a complete flatback hickory club.  The current G series is another magnitude greater in pure forgiveness.

 

They may not work for you.  They may work for you.  What I'm really saying is just that they're worth a look.  🙂

 

Edited by NRJyzr
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The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: Original One 11.5* (tuned down), NV75 X -or- SpeedZone 10.5*, Aldila ProtoPype 80S, <44" TBD

3w: King LTD, Aldila RIP Beta 90 X -or- TM Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 X
Hybrid:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour 2h or 3h, NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S

Irons grab bag:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4; 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, SteelFiber i125 S -or- Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; PM Grind 19 58* -or- Wilson Staff PMP 58*, Dynamic S
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34" -or- Cleveland Huntington Beach #1, 34.5" -or- Golden Ram TW Custom, 34"
Balls: Wilson Staff Duo Professional, TaylorMade TP5, Chrome Soft custom TruVis

GripMaster Roo or Kidd leather grips

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Related question about C-Dimension.  I just built a test iron (Maltby STi first version) that has a long Cdim.  It's a very forgiving club and I like it a lot.  But swing for swing, it seems to leave the face slightly open.  Has anyone experienced that when switching to a club with a very long Cdim?   The lie angle is good btw, unless I'm getting more shaft droop than normal.  Which could be, I guess.

 

 

M4 Driver
XR16 5 wood

4,5,6 hybrids (22,25,28 degrees)  Adams
6-GW Maltby STi irons, graphite
54 & 58º Wedges
Odyssey Jailbird Mini extended to arm lock
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MPF is trash. Might as well be using random numbers.

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Ping G400 Max (Alta 55 CB Stiff)

Titleist TSi2 4 wood 16.5* (Tensei AV Blue RAW 65g Stiff)

Titleist TS2 7 wood 21* (Tensei AV Blue 65g Stiff)

Titleist 818H1 23* (Tensei CK Pro Blue Hybrid 70g R)

Srixon ZX5 5-AW (Nippon Modus 105 Stiff)

Callaway MD5 Tour Grey W-Grind 54* & X-Grind 58*  (DG S200)

Odyssey 2-Ball Ten Arm Lock Putter (Odyssey Armlock Steel 40")

Srixon Z-Star

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2 hours ago, Lefty87 said:

Thanks, Larry. My reason for wanting to move on from the DCB is that the size is much bigger than what I’m use to. The forgiveness benefits certainly don’t seem comparable to the size. I’ve played smaller heads like the p790 and i500, which seemed just as forgiving but in a much better package. 
 

The top line and sole are both really thick, and I’m not loving the turf interaction. Hence why I’m looking into the T200. It looks like it offers similar performance benefits in a much more appealing package. Although, at this point, it seems like I should wait for the new T200 to come out in the fall. 

 

I played the Apex 21 in a combo set (PW-7 in standard, 6-4i in DCB) and I didn't like the draw bias feel of the clubs.  I ended up purchasing a set of Mizuno JPX921 Hot Metal Pros which have a smaller head and less offset.  Both sets are configured the same including shafts, lie angles, and grips, and yet, the 921's are much better for my game compared to the Apex.  The Apex are fine clubs and love the look, but in my case, the 921's just work better and feel better.

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2 hours ago, Snowman9000 said:

Related question about C-Dimension.  I just built a test iron (Maltby STi first version) that has a long Cdim.  It's a very forgiving club and I like it a lot.  But swing for swing, it seems to leave the face slightly open.  Has anyone experienced that when switching to a club with a very long Cdim?   The lie angle is good btw, unless I'm getting more shaft droop than normal.  Which could be, I guess.

 

 

Yep, the further out the c dim, the harder it is to close the face down. It will also droop more too. Just goes to show you there are alot of factors to consider when picking or getting fit for an iron, and why their ratings are disputed to a degree.

Edited by Red4282
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On 6/10/2021 at 9:32 PM, BogeyParBogey said:

Use the measurements for what attributes support what you need and not the playability number.

 

Looking at component measurements leading to the MPF score can help an individual sort out what is needed.

 

Overall view of MPF scores: it helps one decluttter a club search. One day when I was recovering from heart surgery (literally!), I decided to determine how many iron models were "in play" from the seven major OEMs.

 

Counting both current and prior-cycle iron models, I counted 68 different iron models readily available. Thus, MPF can help on isolate a half-dozen possible iron models rather than chopping through all 68.

 

Also, Maltby is quite conservative in what he promises with MPF: The MPF analyzes iron heads, and doesn't take shafts into account.

 

Example is the Ping i200 and i210 irons. The Golf Digest (non-MPF) Hot List billed these as players distance, something a bit beyond me. But, due to the AWT 2.0 shafts, both models flew quite well for me in demo day workouts. (AWT shafts lighter in longer irons than shorter irons).

 

MPF vs. Hot List? You may have noticed the two systems don't mesh up exactly.

  • MPF score is determined by five-factor algebraic equation, using metrics related to playability. It slots clubs into one of seven categories (Ultra-Game Improvement down to Players Classic, plus a Minus category for clubs with negative playability score).
  • Hot List slots clubs into categories according to perceived marketing niche: Four main categories are SGI, GI, Players Distance and Players.
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What's In The Bag (Summary as of October 2021, post-MAX changeover)

 

Driver:  Tour Edge EXS 10.5°, set 9.5°; weights neutral   ||  FWs:  Calla Rogue 4W + 7W

Hybrid:  Calla Big Bertha OS 4H at 22°  ||  Irons:  Calla Mavrik MAX 5i-PW

Wedges*:  Calla MD3: 48°... MD4: 54°, 58° ||  Putter: Ping Sigma G Tyne (face-balanced) + Evnroll Gravity Grip

Ball: 1. Srixon Q-Star Tour / 2. Calla SuperHot (Orange preferred)  ||  Bag: Sun Mountain Three 5 stand bag

For details see:  Pending (need protocol to embed file list).

     * MD4 54°/10 S-Grind replaced MD3 54°/12 W-Grind.

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On 6/11/2021 at 12:22 PM, Snowman9000 said:

Related question about C-Dimension.  I just built a test iron (Maltby STi first version) that has a long Cdim.  It's a very forgiving club and I like it a lot.  But swing for swing, it seems to leave the face slightly open.  Has anyone experienced that when switching to a club with a very long Cdim?   The lie angle is good btw, unless I'm getting more shaft droop than normal.  Which could be, I guess.

 

 

I came from Ping GMax irons to TS-1s and the c-dims and rcog are quite different.  But I didn’t notice a difference.  Of course I’m a 12 cap.  I would say the offset difference I think has helped though when my miss is a pull.

Edited by NCDuffer
Spell check changed rcog to recognize
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