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Driver struggles -- Dumped Under Plane (crazy solution?)


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So.....somewhere along the line I have developed a nasty nasty almost yip with my driver swing.  It's ugly....I can take a great practice swing, get the club moving up the plane, in good position UNTIL, I tee a ball up...... Once the ball is teed up, some pattern in my brain rips the club away shallow and I get stuck dumped under plane.  It doesn't always happen, but seems to rear it's head most often when the right side is crowded, (It's like a stupid hit impulse from the top where I immediately win the arm wrestle in an attempt to get the club face moving towards my intended target!).  Anyway....I've read enough to know what I'm supposed to do, but really having no luck implementing it.  Typically a break from golf helps but since Covid shutdown has cost us a month already, I'm not really keen on riding the pine again.

 

So...the problem being dumped under plane when you are set up square is that you either block it off the planet right, hook it off the planet left, or...occasionally time up the roll at impact and hit an awe inspiring high draw that everyone oohs and ahhs over, (but.....these are few and far between in my experience).  This got me thinking....what if I set up left like Lee Trevino, then chase it down the line through impact....the aiming left and chasing down the target line essentially washes the dumped under swing plane and shifts the path back to a better position.....Call me stupid, (I won't get offended), but could this potentially be an easier fix than trying to change a motor pattern?  I mean, in my simple logic, being dumped under wouldn't be as big of a deal if your path was moving towards your intended target, (Set up with open hips and shoulders and align your clubface with the target).

 

Am I [email protected]$T crazy or what?  For the record, I'm 44 years old, in my late 20s early 30s I carried a +2 index, and won 4 club championships and half a dozen club match play events in about a 10 year period.  My match play partner often used to remark about how I drew the ball from an open stance, (hence my theory).  Life has me in a place where I don't practice or play nearly as much as I used to, (apart from short game on the green I built in my yard last year), so I'm really looking to find some type of match up that allows me to not have to completely overhaul my entire motor pattern, which I don't have the time or desire to do right now.  Seems to me, Lee was well under plane, (or rather inside), relative to his body but hit a nice little push fade by chasing down the line.

 

Anyways...thoughts?  I'll report back and let you know how it goes but somethings got to change because it's no fun stuttering over the ball on the tee.

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I'm going to give it a go.  Saving the shot with your hands and the goat hump is because you are dumped under with a path that is heading way right of your intended target.  Because the target is left

Trevino didn’t dump it underneath.  Push cut.  Not saying what you’re doing won’t work, but have had dozens of people on my lesson tee who did this and it made the dump worse and led to even worse iss

Yes, that's my thought.  Adjust the stance which kind of takes it to the extreme and if I want, slowly work back towards normal from there.  I'm going on a 3 day golf trip next week with buddies and o

I'm in a similar position and struggling with drives that are blocked out to the right and Irons that overdraw massively. In my case, I get this pattern going on when my shoulders turn too flat going back. From there I drop the right shoulder in an attempt to get shallow and get stuck. So my fix is getting the shoulders turning steeper going back.

 

The problem I see with your alignment fix is that your body is not moving optimally and you may sacrifice club head speed as a result. I know that when I get stuck, I have to goat hump, stall, and have to save the shot with my hands which feels very forced an inefficient. I also start getting lower back pain if I fall into this movement pattern for an extended period. If it works for you then go with it but I'd be more inclined to get a swing check up.

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1 hour ago, naj959 said:

I'm in a similar position and struggling with drives that are blocked out to the right and Irons that overdraw massively. In my case, I get this pattern going on when my shoulders turn too flat going back. From there I drop the right shoulder in an attempt to get shallow and get stuck. So my fix is getting the shoulders turning steeper going back.

 

The problem I see with your alignment fix is that your body is not moving optimally and you may sacrifice club head speed as a result. I know that when I get stuck, I have to goat hump, stall, and have to save the shot with my hands which feels very forced an inefficient. I also start getting lower back pain if I fall into this movement pattern for an extended period. If it works for you then go with it but I'd be more inclined to get a swing check up.

I'm going to give it a go.  Saving the shot with your hands and the goat hump is because you are dumped under with a path that is heading way right of your intended target.  Because the target is left of your path, you have to stall and roll the shaft in an effort to get the club face pointing in the direction of the target.  Now, imagine if you your target was aligned with the path that was heading right...you wouldn't have to stall and flip to try to get the ball to hit a target left of the path.  In my crazy notion, similar to what Trevino does, the path is way right, (inside out), relative to the body, but it is aligned with the target, so in that regard, there isn't a save with your hands but rather a push down the target line.  The idea is that you shift your alignment far enough left so that your inside out path (relative to your body), is aimed at the target  

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15 hours ago, DShepley said:

....what if I set up left like Lee Trevino, then chase it down the line through impact....the aiming left and chasing down the target line essentially washes the dumped under swing plane and shifts the path back to a better position.....


Am I [email protected]$T crazy or what? 

 

Not crazy at all as an approach if not wanting to deal with the issue causing you to consider Trevino's move.  Trevino was a genius in that way, it's pretty clever, his move actually gets the clubhead closer to the line of play over a conventional stance-setup.   

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20 minutes ago, iSwing said:

 

Not crazy at all as an approach if not wanting to deal with the issue causing you to consider Trevino's move.  Trevino was a genius in that way, it's pretty clever, his move actually gets the clubhead closer to the line of play over a conventional stance-setup.   

Yes, that's my thought.  Adjust the stance which kind of takes it to the extreme and if I want, slowly work back towards normal from there.  I'm going on a 3 day golf trip next week with buddies and one thing that I do know, is that I can't keep doing the same things that I'm doing.

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Routine and tempo. 

 

Your struggle is mental. You need to focus on routine and tempo in those situations. The problem, to me, is that you get on a hole where your stock shot has risk and you think differently. That shot should have the same rhythm, tempo, and shot routine as any other shot. After you've chosen club, shot, and target, get into your routine. 

 

We get faster when we get nervous. Slow it down, mentally and mechanically when you know you're facing that tight right shot. 

 

Maybe also look at your start line target to make sure you're not taking too aggressive a line. 

 

Is the ability to.work the ball gone from those +2 days? That tight right shot calls for a fade favoring the left side, if you have that ability. 

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It may exacerbate the under move OP but you sound like someone who will find out real quick the routing will be different on the return, it has to be,  or that ball is probably ending up in the right parking lot because no one chases, like you described, by being under from an inside,  so the trail side will feel quite a bit higher than what you're used to.     It's fairly easy, stick with it if you don't want to address the other issue.   Or like Monte says it may end up filling the bus with a bunch of misfits. 

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2 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Trevino didn’t dump it underneath.  Push cut.  Not saying what you’re doing won’t work, but have had dozens of people on my lesson tee who did this and it made the dump worse and led to even worse issues.

 

You’re explanation is adding a compensating movement pattern.  Why not fix what the issue?

Ideally I want to fix what the issue is but for whatever reason, when I get the ball on the ground, I get ball bound and revert to a terrible move.  It's almost like a yip, kind of hard for me to explain but it really really sucks.  Now, having said that, I'm self taught for the most part and came from a baseball background.  I find playing from an opens stance more comfortable.  When I've had issues, I generally dig a ball flight out of the dirt myself and eventually find a way to make the ball behave.  Anyway, I think I'll give it a try, (I'm probably not explaining my approach to it very well), but will quickly abort if the issues get worse.  By the way, thanks for your input.  Typically when I get in a funk like this, (and it does happen), I find my way out of it when I stop caring so much about it.  Perhaps if I exaggerate another move, I can settle somewhere in the middle....fingers crossed!  And....I'm fully aware that the problem resides within my head.  Maybe it's an extreme that helps change it.

Edited by DShepley
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3 hours ago, getitdaily said:

Routine and tempo. 

 

Your struggle is mental. You need to focus on routine and tempo in those situations. The problem, to me, is that you get on a hole where your stock shot has risk and you think differently. That shot should have the same rhythm, tempo, and shot routine as any other shot. After you've chosen club, shot, and target, get into your routine. 

 

We get faster when we get nervous. Slow it down, mentally and mechanically when you know you're facing that tight right shot. 

 

Maybe also look at your start line target to make sure you're not taking too aggressive a line. 

 

Is the ability to.work the ball gone from those +2 days? That tight right shot calls for a fade favoring the left side, if you have that ability. 

I agree 100%.  I would say that my ability to work the ball compared to those +2 days is limited now by mobility.  I'm just not as athletic as I used to be and...I never had a text book swing and have always played from a bit under plane.  I used to live on the range and play 6 - 7 days per week, so finding the low point was never really an issue.  Looking to now when on a good week I play 3 times, rarely get to a range, the problem is that I have lost the ability and luxury of time to get comfortable.  Truth is, you can play some pretty good golf with a flawed move IF you have a club in your hands most days.  Tempo is something I really need to focus on though I do find that when I am trying new things I have a tendency to over swing.

 

The crazy thing about the game, once you have carried a handicap around scratch, is that you still find a way to hit it awful and keep a handicap sub 4 or 5....but....there isn't much satisfaction in grinding out rounds of 73-75 because you got everything up and down and putted well.  It's acceptance....Once you've played scratch or better, you simply can't accept a mindset that you are a 2-4 handicap....It's the push that reminds us that we should be better.

Edited by DShepley
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34 minutes ago, DShepley said:

I agree 100%.  I would say that my ability to work the ball compared to those +2 days is limited now by mobility.  I'm just not as athletic as I used to be and...I never had a text book swing and have always played from a bit under plane.  I used to live on the range and play 6 - 7 days per week, so finding the low point was never really an issue.  Looking to now when on a good week I play 3 times, rarely get to a range, the problem is that I have lost the ability and luxury of time to get comfortable.  Truth is, you can play some pretty good golf with a flawed move IF you have a club in your hands most days.  Tempo is something I really need to focus on though I do find that when I am trying new things I have a tendency to over swing.

 

The crazy thing about the game, once you have carried a handicap around scratch, is that you still find a way to hit it awful and keep a handicap sub 4 or 5....but....there isn't much satisfaction in grinding out rounds of 73-75 because you got everything up and down and putted well.  It's acceptance....Once you've played scratch or better, you simply can't accept a mindset that you are a 2-4 handicap....It's the push that reminds us that we should be better.

Yep. Been there. Played to a plus 2 or 3 in the early 2000s. Then quit for 8 years. When started playing again I was about a 4 and could not accept being a 4 and shooting 76-80.

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On 6/11/2021 at 10:16 PM, DShepley said:

I'm going to give it a go.  Saving the shot with your hands and the goat hump is because you are dumped under with a path that is heading way right of your intended target.  Because the target is left of your path, you have to stall and roll the shaft in an effort to get the club face pointing in the direction of the target.  Now, imagine if you your target was aligned with the path that was heading right...you wouldn't have to stall and flip to try to get the ball to hit a target left of the path.  In my crazy notion, similar to what Trevino does, the path is way right, (inside out), relative to the body, but it is aligned with the target, so in that regard, there isn't a save with your hands but rather a push down the target line.  The idea is that you shift your alignment far enough left so that your inside out path (relative to your body), is aimed at the target  

 

You have it backwards I think. A goat hump is your body reacting, though it does tend to shift the path right. 

 

This approach sounds like a band aid to me, I also fight a path that gets too far right. I will practice cuts and other drills to try to rein things in and feel more 'on top of it' but my natural shot is a draw and I would rather play that, just with less curve. 

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How does aiming left  fix the two way miss that comes with the goat hump flip? It will likely just shift the center of your distribution and potentially bring the left of left shot into play. Realistically there is likely one key thing you are doing that brings on the motion that gets you under, addressing that core issue doesn't have to be a full scale rebuild but can certainly have some positive impact. If you don't have the time to practice a lot to groove the compensations needed to make it work and want to get closer to your previous playing level, focus on the main issue.

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My big fault is being dumped under, and I guess I would just say it is one of those things I have not discovered a Band-Aid for. It’s especially bad for irons, as it leads to all sorts of contact issues. And rope hooks. 
 

And for the driver, it is impossible to control start lines, and blocks and rope hooks are very often the result. 
 

Point being, this is one of those things where it is better to fix the cause than to try to find a temporary solution (in my personal opinion). 

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Maybe try teeing the ball lower, and stop trying to hit up on it from the inside. Feel like you're going to try to hit slightly down on it, and with the club head starting to go left. You might find that what then feels over-the-top and across it is really where you should be (and is neither OTT nor across it at all).

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1 hour ago, KMeloney said:

Maybe try teeing the ball lower, and stop trying to hit up on it from the inside. Feel like you're going to try to hit slightly down on it, and with the club head starting to go left. You might find that what then feels over-the-top and across it is really where you should be (and is neither OTT nor across it at all).

This is it.  It all stems from tee height and hitting up the wrong way.  Today I hit three wood off of most tees and it served me pretty well and for sure it's because of the tee height.  I just make a better pass at it.  I'll go with that for a while until tempo comes back and then get driver back in play when I'm comfortable, (and don't have as many demons in my head....it's like a box full of frogs at the moment).

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On 6/11/2021 at 8:44 PM, DShepley said:

So.....somewhere along the line I have developed a nasty nasty almost yip with my driver swing.  It's ugly....I can take a great practice swing, get the club moving up the plane, in good position UNTIL, I tee a ball up...... Once the ball is teed up, some pattern in my brain rips the club away shallow and I get stuck dumped under plane.  It doesn't always happen, but seems to rear it's head most often when the right side is crowded, (It's like a stupid hit impulse from the top where I immediately win the arm wrestle in an attempt to get the club face moving towards my intended target!).  Anyway....I've read enough to know what I'm supposed to do, but really having no luck implementing it.  Typically a break from golf helps but since Covid shutdown has cost us a month already, I'm not really keen on riding the pine again.

 

So...the problem being dumped under plane when you are set up square is that you either block it off the planet right, hook it off the planet left, or...occasionally time up the roll at impact and hit an awe inspiring high draw that everyone oohs and ahhs over, (but.....these are few and far between in my experience).  This got me thinking....what if I set up left like Lee Trevino, then chase it down the line through impact....the aiming left and chasing down the target line essentially washes the dumped under swing plane and shifts the path back to a better position.....Call me stupid, (I won't get offended), but could this potentially be an easier fix than trying to change a motor pattern?  I mean, in my simple logic, being dumped under wouldn't be as big of a deal if your path was moving towards your intended target, (Set up with open hips and shoulders and align your clubface with the target).

 

Am I [email protected]$T crazy or what?  For the record, I'm 44 years old, in my late 20s early 30s I carried a +2 index, and won 4 club championships and half a dozen club match play events in about a 10 year period.  My match play partner often used to remark about how I drew the ball from an open stance, (hence my theory).  Life has me in a place where I don't practice or play nearly as much as I used to, (apart from short game on the green I built in my yard last year), so I'm really looking to find some type of match up that allows me to not have to completely overhaul my entire motor pattern, which I don't have the time or desire to do right now.  Seems to me, Lee was well under plane, (or rather inside), relative to his body but hit a nice little push fade by chasing down the line.

 

Anyways...thoughts?  I'll report back and let you know how it goes but somethings got to change because it's no fun stuttering over the ball on the tee.

 

Hey!  This is the swing that I am currently trying to fix, lol.  And yes, when you pull it off, those towering draws do get responses, but like you said, I can hit a super high hook with a 4i that travels 60 yds offline too.  Then there is the block...  I also tried to play the route of aim left and swing right to get it to go straight.  What I found was I could never aim left far enough.  In order for me to pull it off I really had to aim left, like left of the left rough, and leave the face pointed down left center of the fairway.  Then I could pull off a tiny fade or straight shot, but most of the time I could not commit to aiming that far left and would either hit it right or close the face and end up left.  Also, I think someone else said it above, it hurts my back to do this.  Not too mention I had issues with topping the ball, which could destroy my rounds.  

 

Now, I am actually trying to fix my swing with help from an instructor who will not have me try to swing to right field.  Yep, I've had those instructors in the past.  One may think there is a correlation there.  

 

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Okay....It didn't work! Or rather it didn't work well enough.  I think my issue stems from over playing once we finally returned from the Covid shutdown.  I'm finding my back and neck really tight and stiff lately, (mostly T spine and neck), and when that happens I tend to get into a really flat turn.  Certainly tee height has an effect on it as I tend to try to hit up from the inside too much with the driver.  In the short term, and on my golf trip this week, I'll mainly hit 3 wood and driving iron to keep things in front of me.  I played last night and hit the 3 wood well but struggled with the driver, (mostly mental I think), so there are signs of better days ahead.  I ended up 3 over with only 1 birdie but it was an easier route to 73.  It's almost like I am uncomfortable turning deep behind the ball and I throw the clubhead at it from the top.  I found that I hit it better if I made a conscious effort to keep the clubhead behind my hands a bit longer....just be patient at the top.

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Worth a shot, right? Like ball position, I think the idea of "hit up on it" and "hit it from the inside" can get away from us (ok... from ME) often if it's not monitored. Teeing it high and forward more has always promoted than way-from-the-inside-and-up swing for me, and it's almost always a train wreck. either a snap hook (because I shut the face down) or a high block right (because that's where the path is headed). It usually takes a dropkick scuff mark in the grass a foot before the ball for me to realize "Geez, that club is coming from way inside there..." 

 

Edit: Ok, I see it didn't "work" per se. What didn't work? I don't think a lower-teed ball will work all by itself -- but if it causes you to get your path much more neutral (both left/right path and steeper -wise), then... That's what I was thinking might help.

Edited by KMeloney
(Because the OP tried it already)
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, KMeloney said:

Worth a shot, right? Like ball position, I think the idea of "hit up on it" and "hit it from the inside" can get away from us (ok... from ME) often if it's not monitored. Teeing it high and forward more has always promoted than way-from-the-inside-and-up swing for me, and it's almost always a train wreck. either a snap hook (because I shut the face down) or a high block right (because that's where the path is headed). It usually takes a dropkick scuff mark in the grass a foot before the ball for me to realize "Geez, that club is coming from way inside there..." 

 

Edit: Ok, I see it didn't "work" per se. What didn't work? I don't think a lower-teed ball will work all by itself -- but if it causes you to get your path much more neutral (both left/right path and steeper -wise), then... That's what I was thinking might help.

Steep is the issue, in that I need to be steeper on the way down, I need to level out the AOA and get my path more left.  The key to the path is in the shoulders but when I tee the ball too high they dip behind instead of turning properly.  One other thing I am cursed with is the ability to make a slower swing!  When I am trying new patterns, I almost always get into a rut of rushing and over-swinging.  I just need a reset so to speak.  The silly part is that we started golfing in Ontario in April and I was driving the ball great, even being able to play a cut driver.  Our government closed down golf courses due to a 3rd Covid wave for the entire month of May and now that we've returned I've seemingly lost it.  I feel like I'm the furthest away from that cut driver than ever.  I had a stretch where we played 5 days in a row and I think I just over did it with a tired body and a back that got stiff.  It got me into a bad pattern.

Edited by DShepley
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I've hit some of my best drives feeling like I use my shoulders to bring the club into the ball. Kind of like an over the top move but in reality my trail shoulder is moving forward and out instead of just down. I get a very straight ball with little curve and it comes out like a missile. OP you may want to give it a try. My hope is to get a knuckle fade into my arsenal and make that my go to shot, especially if I can hit my irons that way.

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7 hours ago, naj959 said:

I've hit some of my best drives feeling like I use my shoulders to bring the club into the ball. Kind of like an over the top move but in reality my trail shoulder is moving forward and out instead of just down. I get a very straight ball with little curve and it comes out like a missile. OP you may want to give it a try. My hope is to get a knuckle fade into my arsenal and make that my go to shot, especially if I can hit my irons that way.

 

Same feel I'm working on, it turns an 8 degree in-out path to like 2 degrees. For anyone stuck in this movement pattern, a neutral path should feel like over the top. 

 

I know a lot of golfers are trying to get more shallow into the ball especially with driver, but too shallow with an in-to-out path is a recipe for all kinds of frustration. 

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