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Hi all,

 

i had issues with shanks a couple of years ago. So far so good. I hit solid irons a few weeks ago - mishits of course but very rarely a shank and if - luckily - only at the range. 
 

now I had them more and more on the Range, than a few on the course and now - every Range session only shanks. I tried drills etc like two balls. But nothing works. It’s completely ridiculous like a magnet on the hosel. 
 

it is so so hard to describe the feelings I have right now. 

8F53B076-BAF8-4DEB-A5B2-507CE8F7AFA4.jpeg

2BB9FBAE-0517-44AA-A9AE-C31BA7D34B27.jpeg

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Wow... thanks a lot.. I need to go through this a couple of times I guess... the ONLY thing I would like to reply immediately:

 

of course I have a lot of errors and I can’t be compared to a tour pro - BUT my swing before the shanks probably was even looking the same but I didn’t had shanks and I was striking sometimes quite well.

 

So the main main goal number one is to get rid of the shanks. Nothing has more priority.

 

Attached two quick video from a good session on the range I had weeks / month ago where there was no shanking at all.

 

I dont know if you can see a difference between those swings which lead to my shanks at the moment.

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7 hours ago, ralemb said:

Wow... thanks a lot.. I need to go through this a couple of times I guess... the ONLY thing I would like to reply immediately:

 

of course I have a lot of errors and I can’t be compared to a tour pro - BUT my swing before the shanks probably was even looking the same but I didn’t had shanks and I was striking sometimes quite well.

 

So the main main goal number one is to get rid of the shanks. Nothing has more priority.

 

Attached two quick video from a good session on the range I had weeks / month ago where there was no shanking at all.

 

I dont know if you can see a difference between those swings which lead to my shanks at the moment.

0d5e7330483642a391693dd637a5df30.mov IMG_1084.mov


The swings may look similar, but there are different things happening:

1424233127_ScreenShot2021-06-15at1_41_09PM.png.60f5629c91c72a7b9f6c000e361d0036.png

Your hips are less cleared/more closed at impact with your older swings and more open/cleared when you're shanking the ball. This goes back to what I said about rotation and how you need to be in the proper positions to benefit from rotating correctly. In the old swings you are rotating your hips less and stalling them more approaching impact. This gives you more time to save the shot with your hands, whereas the newer swing has better hip rotation and clearing, which ironically causes the shank because it takes away the small amount of time you had before. 

To be clear and a little blunt, this isn't the difference between a "good swing" and a "bad swing", frankly they are all quite bad from a technical standpoint, it is simply that you were compensating for the flaws a little better with the older swings which allowed you to make decent contact. The difference between this and the pros is that pros have sound fundamentals that allow them to get away with more mistakes before everything goes bad. In your case though, your fundamentals are only allowing for very small differences/mistakes before bad things happen, in this case only a slight change in tempo and rotation is creating the difference between a good strike and a shank. That is why I encourage you to look at those fundamentals to improve.  

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Hey,

 

thanks a lot for the detailed answer - again. Thats just even more frustrating to do one thing „better“ - like hip rotation with a much worse result.

 

I know of course that my swing is not very good. I do think on a amateur level and a handicap target from like 13-15 (now I am having 20 with a best round 11 over par on a difficult course) the swing could be okay. As I am turning 40 and I started golf 10 years ago for 3 years, 4 years break, now since 3 years again I KNOW that I cannot change fundamental stuff. This would need 2,3 lessons with the right pro each week - that is not realistic.

 

So I need to find the small things to avoid the risk of what I am having right now.


I understand that the biggest part ist my position at the top and the hands way too far the body. That is of course something I can work on and try to update a new video. If I try (in front of a mirror) to turn my body just a bit, than only lifting the arms like two small sequences, that looks really perfect. But I know how it will look like on a range while trying to hit a ball 😞

 

 

 

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To add something. in winter I tried at home to get a new backswing idea as I was swaying as hell while back swinging. in this idea (turn just a bit and lift arms) there is eventually a lot of the big fault here with my top position!? I know this is at home and really hard to do this on a range and even harder on the course, but it could be a starting point, what do you think?

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

Hi all - another update from me and another problems 🙂 So far I worked on taking the club less behind me and a bit more „up“ and shanks have been gone... so far so good - yesterday out of a sudden again complete issue with striking heels, even with hybrid and wood - the whole body moves towards the ball, the butt, head, hands, everything. I dont know if weight is too much toe in setup or even in heels (which would give more chances to shift the weight to toes in impact) etc etc... 

 

Kind of a „quick fix“ on the course after the session where it was way better was to think to hit the ball with the toe of the club. But this is not a valid thing thought long therm I guess...

 

I am really struggling. Is it backswing too long and the „standing up“ move - is it butt not forcing to keep on a line. Is it arms hands not fully stretched but bend etc etc...

 

I hate seeing videos of me as it always look much worse than it feels... 

 

Thanks a lot guys.

 

 

 

EF7FF05F-B11C-473F-9006-BEA5D43CA45D.jpg

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Ah, the dreaded chicken wing:
image.png.6ee0a592f4ab2ac3ec1db4e0bc6df6eb.png
 

You're standing up as you reach your top and your elbow is getting outside your body. Not good, but you can recover from here...

Except this is what you do next:
image.png.dd85287cb976686e353381a589a32e60.png

 

Your first move in your downswing is with your hands. You've now taken a broken angle and made it worse...
 

image.png.ee29e8575fa609ceebe82baa3bf9ba88.png

 

And now here's what you do to try to recover. Instead of tucking that elbow in to help you shallow, you're now flipping your wrists outward as your shallowing move to save the clubface.

 

image.png.2d338e98ee84e6a3cb6eb3dbb40fa16a.png

 

Look at your arms at address and at the moment of contact. You've flipped your arms and you've moved towards the ball because that wrist move at the top has cost you your weight transfer and balance just to get the clubface back to an acceptable position. Your hips are slightly open but your shoulders are completely shut to compensate for what you've done with your arms; otherwise you'd pull the ball so hard you'd hit your front leg.

Your first move in the downswing needs to be with your hips/shoulders opening and tucking that elbow in to get a nice shallow path that will allow your hands to follow your shoulders through the swing. Stopping your shoulders means you're losing your clubface control and then put in moves to compensate and it only causes more flaws and more compensations to cover it up.

First downswing move: elbow into your ribs and release your shoulders towards the hole. GL.

Edited by BraxtonFullerton

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Thanks a lot for analyzing... bit I recognize that all these theory stuff is just not hand-able in those 1,2,3 seconds of the swing 😞 Even with contant support of a pro I am falling into those bad habits. But I will try.. would be great to demonstrate a little bit more about this first move stuff.

 

(what helped me after those swings and support of a pro: practice swing setup at the ball, full swing but miss the ball inside AND „feeling“ the hands being and staying low and inside narrow moving around me at and after impact)

 

 

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When looking at these sorts of things and needing to exaggerate, stop at the top, of your can't hold your top position, you're swinging/rotating too far.

 

Then just practice the first move of getting your elbow into your ribcage. Once you get that sequence down you can re-learn where the face needs to be.

 

Build your swing from your core out.

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12 hours ago, ralemb said:

Thanks a lot for analyzing... bit I recognize that all these theory stuff is just not hand-able in those 1,2,3 seconds of the swing 😞 Even with contant support of a pro I am falling into those bad habits. But I will try.. would be great to demonstrate a little bit more about this first move stuff.

 

(what helped me after those swings and support of a pro: practice swing setup at the ball, full swing but miss the ball inside AND „feeling“ the hands being and staying low and inside narrow moving around me at and after impact)

 

 


Braxton said what I would have as well. You're absolutely right in that you can't handle all these things in the time you have during the swing, which is why you need to avoid creating things to handle in the first place.

From my first post: "you can't correctly rotate when you're stuck because your hands/arms need time to get unstuck". The problem is, as you mentioned, you don't have time to do this, and that is when things break down. Your hands are still miles behind you in the backswing and the club is still pointed the wrong direction. You have done a better job of not going inside immediately in your takeaway, but you're still arriving at the same place at the top of your backswing. Metaphorically, you're driving into a ditch and then lamenting that getting out of it is too hard, and you're right, which is why you need to stop driving into the ditch altogether.

1314160174_ScreenShot2021-07-31at5_02_52PM.png.a7461eb978d5d2afca6b7637d17e2fd3.png

If you can't stop yourself from getting your hands so far behind you, then your backswing basically needs to stop here. From this position you have a decent chance of getting the club back down on plane with a "normal" sequence. The problem is, you're still doing this:

RbsiedscOverRotation2.gif.9983a3b800306042f1e8e4b06551cfaf.gif

Everything here is bad and you need to find a way to stop doing this. You're over rotating, exceeding your range of motion which is pulling you up and towards the ball, and throwing the club in a direction that you have proven you are unable to recover from. This might be a decent time to completely rethink your approach. If I had to guess, mentally you attempting to "do more" to fix the problem, when the problem is actually that you're doing too much. Rotating your shoulders too much, moving your hands/arms too far behind you, throwing the club too much etc etc. All of the most practical solutions to your problems involve doing less, not more. 

If you have been working at this for the last 1.5 months and are still doing these things then you need to change your approach. At this stage I don't think you should be doing anything more than actual half swings, because to be blunt, you can't swing the club fully in a correct manner yet. I only stress this because you have significant issues stacked on top of each other and it looks like only one small one (your takeaway) has changed at all since last time. You need to reprogram, hence abandoning full swings for awhile and working smaller first, otherwise I don't see this changing. Whatever swing you would use to punch the ball under a tree and run about 100 yards down the fairway, post some of those and we can work from there. 👍

 

Edited by Valtiel

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While a couple major things need to change, I'm not as pessimistic as Val here.

 

RbsiedscOverRotation2.gif.9983a3b800306042f1e8e4b06551cfaf.gif


That first downswing move you're making he illustrated where you're pulling the handle vertical is the single move I think that just blows your whole swing up. Feel like you're ripping that club straight down; like you're pulling a rope that's tied to your ceiling. I think if you can fix that transition you can get some semblance of an OK swing out of what else you have going on.

Edited by BraxtonFullerton
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4 hours ago, BraxtonFullerton said:

While a couple major things need to change, I'm not as pessimistic as Val here.

 

RbsiedscOverRotation2.gif.9983a3b800306042f1e8e4b06551cfaf.gif


That first downswing move you're making he illustrated where you're pulling the handle vertical is the single move I think that just blows your whole swing up. Feel like you're ripping that club straight down; like you're pulling a rope that's tied to your ceiling. I think if you can fix that transition you can get some semblance of an OK swing out of what else you have going on.


I think that is a decent point, yeah. I think i'm just a bit confused with how unnatural some of these positions are and ascribing some sort of intent to them. I've been playing 30 years and I don't think I could make this swing if I tried and frankly I have no idea how it is even happening, hah. His downswing is like someone doing an exaggerated drill, so I guess compared to what he is doing now he'd should almost feel like he's going way over the top in transition?

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14 hours ago, Valtiel said:

His downswing is like someone doing an exaggerated drill, so I guess compared to what he is doing now he'd should almost feel like he's going way over the top in transition?

 

That's for him and an instructor I guess!!

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Posted (edited)

Hey all and thanks for the discussion here, but I am getting about lost about the latest posts. First of all, the following GIF is not the move from top to start of downswing but from top to even more top/overswing, right?

 

RbsiedscOverRotation2.gif.9983a3b800306042f1e8e4b06551cfaf.gif.77d4aaaa0f22423673771fc572a50f4e.gif

 

 

Other question: What is like an exaggerated drill? I am not pulling straight down in the start of downswing but more towards the ball? I think straight down is what I would need to learn?

 

 

But to be very frank: I dont think I could learn things like:

- Keep elbow in ripcage

- start with hips and body but not arms,

- holding lag 

- shift massive weight to front leg

 

I think those things are too bad already and nearly impossible to relearn as I am having a job and family as well 🙂

 

But of course something needs to change as my swing is very inconsistent and I am falling too oft in chaotic range sessions with shanks and even on the course I am having shanks (mostly with full wedge swings).

 

 

Regarding hands too far behind and inside: I though it was already way better but its obv. not. I am also trying to keep but at a „virtual“ wall and dont lift at the end, obv no success.

 

I would like to show a swing which is already a few weeks old as I was at a pitching green with a 60° wedge and I was doing half swings from a feeling and at the video I was surprised that this is probably a 3/4 swing or even more. I can image you would rate the swing a bit better but to be honest, that does not felt like a swing at all, just like a pitch. And the result was also much shorter... like 35m instead of 50,55 where a full swing with that club would end - so definitely a shorter swing but it looks long.

 

Maybe that helps to not only seeing mishits here. 🙂 I am very open to do some drills, post more videos etc if I can improve with you help here.

 

 

My worst problems at the moment:

- Some shanks, especially with full wedges and I dont know if I than should hit longer clubs as a pitch and avoid full wedges

- Driver everyday completely different and at the moment on the course I am playing just a 5w off the tee

 

 

 

Edit: I just have also issues with seeing Videos on YouTube - so many do sound so promising and it is nearly impossible to do the things which are explained in the videos. But here this sounds very helpful probably for my issues, what do you think:

 


another one I found here, recognising that it is completely not what I am doing in my swing but also being realistic that I will never have such a swing 😕 

 

 

 

Thanks a lot guys and I really appreciate you help here.

 

Edited by ralemb
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5 hours ago, ralemb said:

But to be very frank: I dont think I could learn things like:

- Keep elbow in ripcage

- start with hips and body but not arms,

- holding lag 

- shift massive weight to front leg

 

Dude, I have a 5 month old at home... This year I've turned my driver fades & slices into draws & hooks... None of these things are unlearnable. Shove a towel under your trail arm and keep it there during your swing.
Focus on turning your hips open from your backswing; don't even swing at the ball at first, just go for getting the sensation down before then trying to make contact with a ball.
Lag will happen naturally when you're leading from your core out: hips --> shoulders --> arms
You will realize the only way to fire those hips open IS to get your weight forward and onto your front leg.

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Nice. I tried so hard today on the course to keep right elbow at the hips / behind the left arm and it was the worst 9 hole round ever. X shanks with irons and woods. From the tee every driver slice as hell. It was so bad I cannot explain. 
 

i don’t know what to do. It is worse than after beginning with golf 10 years ago. There were no shanks or slices. Don’t know what to do. I spend thousands of euros with pros and everybody is saying the backswing is excellent and just trying to fix a tiny peace. Mostly to hit ball first than ground / low behind more after the ball etc. 
 

i am having fundamental issues like you all describe but no pro can change this when I visit him every few weeks for 45 minutes. 
 

this is so bad / today first time almost broke some clubs. 

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@ralemb I'll respond to your questions one by one here:
 

Quote

First of all, the following GIF is not the move from top to start of downswing but from top to even more top/overswing, right?


Correct, that is showing you getting to the top of your swing. 
 

Quote

Other question: What is like an exaggerated drill? I am not pulling straight down in the start of downswing but more towards the ball? I think straight down is what I would need to learn?


Please see the link below, and I will reference this several times. 
 



Regarding an "exaggerated drill", I am referring to the fact that you look like you are trying to keep your hands as far behind you in the downswing as possible. The confusing part to me is that you're doing so many odd things that our brain *normally* tries to override and prevent us from doing. Your hands get too deep/behind you/stuck in the backswing which as I think I said before results in an over the top compensation move 9 times out of 10. Not only do you NOT do that, but you actually do the opposite:

ralebDownswing1.gif.3101d4e846947dc03df5ec1277e4bd57.gif

As we discussed before, your hands are VERY far behind you at the top of the swing, and you need to get them back in front of you to hit the ball. The problem is, you do the opposite. You throw away your wrist angles, which is common with an over the top move, but instead of going over the top to get the club back to the ball, you go straight down behind you. 

ralebDownswing2.gif.0858c8382b551207e5b5b87b46c1e661.gif

And you seem to keep your hands stuck behind you as long as possible throughout the downswing. If you asked me to make a normal backswing but then try to hit my back foot with the club on the way down instead of the ball, this is the type of swing I would likely try to force myself to make. That is the confusing part; this whole sequence is both extremely unnatural, which suggests that you're *trying* to do this, and at the same time one of the worst things you could be doing given your swing faults. In the Justin Rose video above, he says in a couple different ways that "the club never actually gets here, that is way too far behind me", and yet this VERY similar to what you're doing. 

853878871_ScreenShot2021-08-03at2_56_59PM.png.b27fa690920b2de33030c76f46064f9d.png

Rose on the right is showing the exaggerated "stuck" position that he rehearses, and you on the left are very similarly "stuck" in your actual swing. This is what I meant by your swing looking like an exaggerated drill. 

This is severe and also totally explains why you're having such a hard time. You can't hit the ball decently with this kind of downswing move, and if you have instructors telling you that very little is wrong and giving you little "ball first" impact visualizations then they are doing you a great disservice. This isn't a good swing that needs little tweaks, this is a VERY strange swing with very specific problems that need to be broken down and addressed. 

I would love to see you try to come over the top as much as possible just to exaggerate the opposite of what you're doing now. Feel like from the top of the swing that you're trying to swing over the top of the ball, almost like a baseball swing, and pull the ball as far to left as you can. It feels to me like you've gotten some really weird muscle memory stuck in there and you need to break out of that. Doing the opposite extreme is a good way to start. 

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Thanks for the detailed answer but I am getting now even more confused. I am having an over the top swing, especially with the driver with my slices. And as I am hitting shanks I am not behind me but hands are getting way to much at the ball and not to the back foot like you described. 
 

that does not make sense to me as the first impression. 
 

i am having such mental Problems and with Reading that I am having a really bad swing with knowing that you can almost change nothing In a swing witch is there for years is really hard and I don’t know how to continue to be honest. 
 

i tried different pros but most of them want me to to shallow the club as I am coming over the top and you are saying I am way too shallow? That does not fit 😕 

 

i would love to do some drills and record them and show it to you but I need to understand the real issues first. 

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9 hours ago, ralemb said:

Thanks for the detailed answer but I am getting now even more confused. I am having an over the top swing, especially with the driver with my slices. And as I am hitting shanks I am not behind me but hands are getting way to much at the ball and not to the back foot like you described. 
 

that does not make sense to me as the first impression. 
 

i am having such mental Problems and with Reading that I am having a really bad swing with knowing that you can almost change nothing In a swing witch is there for years is really hard and I don’t know how to continue to be honest. 
 

i tried different pros but most of them want me to to shallow the club as I am coming over the top and you are saying I am way too shallow? That does not fit 😕 

 

i would love to do some drills and record them and show it to you but I need to understand the real issues first. 


I'm sorry for the confusion, I understand that it sounds like you're getting conflicting information. These swings you have posted, including this more recent one, are NOT over the top in any way. I will make some gifs detailing this so there is no confusion. 

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Ok, so here is some club path breakdowns to illustrate what over the top looks like:

OTTExample.gif.c1add66d77e4bc9a9b3932a277f3fa67.gif

We see the handle of the club more or less tracking straight towards the ball in your typical OTT swing. This gets you steep, out to in, and usually leads to various forms of rotational stall and early extension. 

NotOTT.gif.b103b337fadead3c612b94087b4f7412.gif

Obviously we are not seeing that here. This is not an over the top swing, so I would encourage you to start asking some questions of your instructor if that is what he is calling this. It could be a language barrier issue, or it could be an instructor that does not know what he is talking about. You are NOT getting your hands "too much towards the ball" at all, and I think maybe that idea that you were has pushed you too far in the opposite direction. 

RoryPath.gif.4637936631161c05594cb7c12d735f79.gifAdamPath.gif.ee9a2e9bd2c6216d1e30744268a41fcb.gif

Looking at Rory and Adam here, we see the pretty similar paths. The first move is almost always straight down, followed by a smooth arc down to the ball. 
 

Edited by Valtiel

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Posted (edited)

Hi there,

 

thanks a lot and I do understand what you are showing me. On the one hand I think that camera position can mess up a but and I will try to create better videos and position in the future, on the other hand it does make sense with the hands that far deep behind me.

 

What I dont understand: If hands are under the plane, how is this even possible to hit shanks, so with having the hands way towards the ball, that does not make sense to me.

 

At the moment I am working on a better hand position at top at the swing - the results are way better but I dont have a video yet.


What is not working complete is the driver - I think best I can do is to create good videos from short and mid irons, to hybrid and wood5 (which is my alternative to a driver from the tee) and the driver itself.

 

I would really appreciate the ongoing help here.

Edited by ralemb
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12 hours ago, ralemb said:

 

What I dont understand: If hands are under the plane, how is this even possible to hit shanks, so with having the hands way towards the ball, that does not make sense to me.

 

Again, your path is not your issue. Your position at the "top" is fine. Take a look at the hands of Rory and Adam in Val's reply. Look at what their hands do to get the downswing going.

It's like they're pulling a rope that's mounted to the ceiling:

RoryPath.gif.4637936631161c05594cb7c12d735f79.gif

 

Look at how out in front he keeps his hands for the entirety of the downswing. Hands and fists are always leading the way. Now look what you immediately do:

OTTExample.gif.c1add66d77e4bc9a9b3932a277f3fa67.gif

 

You've broken your wrists right at the top, look at how fast the clubhead comes parallel with your hands. This is the root cause of all your issues that you need to fix.

 

If you have a Dick's near you, you can pick up one of the wrist trainers: https://www.dickssportinggoods.com/p/swingyde-golf-swing-trainer-19ovfuswngydxxxxxtrn/

 

You need to fix your wrist action first then you can start to worry about other things in your swing.

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Hi there and thanks for reply.

 

@BraxtonFullertonyour second GIF is not me, so you pasted in the wrong picture or you are not talking about me, can you clarify?

 

If you talk about my swing than can you explain what you exactly mean with wrong wrist action? I don't think I can actively work on this... I never could "hold lag" or something in this direction, that is something I am not able to do unfortunately. 

 

Also it is weird that person a here is saying it is my top position and person b is saying that is not the issue.

 

I am completely done. scored 102 today in a cool tournament. I did not use the driver, but also the 5w was a Desaster from tee with slices and heel hits and even the good one where never comparable to the ones on the range before going on the course.

 

I don't understand much anymore... my swing is bad, yes, but even with the swing I scored a 83 on a difficult course, I can hit balls on the range but I am not able to make use of this on the course. Every "grandpa" can hit a solid driver and for me it is like e a mission impossible. it is so bad I cant describe. I am worse than 2 years ago.  cant describe my feelings...it is so strange to accept the inability of hitting a driver and than even a 5w is not working.

 

it is like somebody dit not teach the basic fundamentals to me and now I am not able to correct this.

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5 hours ago, ralemb said:

 

@BraxtonFullertonyour second GIF is not me, so you pasted in the wrong picture or you are not talking about me, can you clarify?

 

Oop. Sorry, yeah that was supposed to be your swing. Baby brain, I copied the wrong one. Was supposed to be this one:

 

NotOTT.gif.b103b337fadead3c612b94087b4f7412.gif

 

Look at what your handle is doing here. The drill I think will help you the most is to take an alignment stick and stick it into your grip and take some swings with it.

 

 

 

____________________________

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Titleist 818 H2 3H - Tour AD-DI 85S

Wilson/Staff CB 4-GW - TT S300

Cleveland RTX 588 - 54°/58°

Wilson/Staff 8802 Milled

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So it is now absolut scooping and Club behaviour at impact? I thought it is about the start of the downswing? 
 

to be honest I don’t see so many differences in those different images here. Of course my swing looks more bad but I cannot the exactly what is different at wrist, handle etc. 
 

If it is about not to scoop, that is where most of the pros tried to work on, like creating different way more left, low point way more left etc. But this exactly has nothing to do with the driver where you don’t want to habe the hands in front of the Ball at impact. 
 

i really don’t know what’s wrong here and where the inconsistency is coming from, why the driver is completely a mess up and so on 

 

i will try to create better videos with different clubs here but as I said. The one day I hit good balls, the other days not. So I need videos from Good and bad Hits basically with the different clubs. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Get the club working up way way way way way earlier in the backswing. Feeling should be shaft working vertical from p3, with the trail arm not getting behind seam line. Backswing should consequently feel a lot shorter, trail arm folding up essentially the whole way. On downswing I’d have the thought of trail elbow working underneath and around your lead arm. Honestly I’d consider getting a Tourstriker Planemate. With your swing faults as they are right now you’ll find it even harder to make any kind of contact with the ball, but through trial and error it will lead you into the right positions.

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