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Hi everybody, quick update from my end - not with a video as I have now some back issues and I will do some videos within the next weeks. Shanks are gone / very rarely at the range fortunately (at the moment) and my irons are often very good - with the idea of a backswing where my hands are not behind my head down the line just from a feeling perspective and with a bit of a short swing and as a "first move" I try to shift hips towards the target. I know only shifting is not good but in my case when I think it is shift only, in the end it is just 2 cm or so. This works fine for everything but driver. Driver is like a different sport with a complete different setup, I think way to tense and the opposite of free and comfortable.

 

 

I war at my pro from a views years ago and basically we did the same like those days: 

 

- Trackman showed at the one hand coming from out-to-in with every club but the most with driver and on video you see a very early wrist action that the right hand is pushing over left towards the ball, shaft getting steep

 

- especially with the driver we tried an exaggeration of bringt shaft shallow with pushing clubhead behind me to the ground and trying to keep right hand under the left plus a much much stronger grip. 

 

- it felt like completely unnormal and not free, but I hit very nice drives and in the video the "little" looping of the clubhead in transition was gone and it moved to a perfect backswing-stop-downswing on same path kind of thing, although it felt very stupid.

 

 

even with irons same idea a bit and also very good.

 

2 days later before tournament on the range, tried exactly the same, so I said to myself exactly the same what my pro told me, but 15 drives with 15 different bad results.

 

 

So my questions here are:

 

- do you agree that my issue is to get my shaft shallow, especially in transition - I think it is similar to the Justin rose video but some comments here say that my path is not the problem

 

- is it normal and "correct" that a new idea fells completely strange and controlled and not natural to work on with the longterm goal that this move will go into the "natural" swing where I cannot think, like on the course especially?

 

- i think with driver as said, I am way to tense with everything, so I will try to free up a bit plus the "bring the club more shallow".

 

 

Would be happy to get some feedback on the current situation.

 

PS: I needed to play the tournament (two rounds on Saturday as a club championship) completely without driver, so 5-wood from the tee and scored 94 and 92 which is quite good at the moment.... so you could say you don't need a driver but I think everybody wants to hit it 🙂

 

Thanks a lot!

 

PPS: Please see this video of me in 2013 - those days we worked exactly on the same - like you see in the beginning of the clubhead-down-drill. This was the same pro with working on a more shallow path:

 

 

 

 

Edited by ralemb
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11 minutes ago, ralemb said:

How does that fit or what does that answer to my post one hour ago? Sorry but I don’t understand tbh

It fits because having looked at all of your swings it's clear that you don't have a handle on how the arms work in the swing. 

 

Your arms are NEVER ment to get behind you. They're always out in front of you, but 2D video makes it look like they move around the torso. Your swing is a classic example of someone who doesn't get this and it's a massive factor in all of your problems. 

 

The backswing is very simple, but only when you understand what happens in three dimensions. 

Edited by TheDeanAbides
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Is it about the following video? This guy is talking for hours but not showing one swing or hitting one ball. Very constructive…

 


i would be very happy if the other guys can have a look what I wrote today. Even if that arm illusion make sense - everybody has his swing and I try to improve it. I cannot start with a complete new idea of moving myself. 

 

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29 minutes ago, ralemb said:

It was your first post today?! So have you been in and read all the stuff? Anyway thanks for trying to help but another complete new idea will just confuse me. 

I watched all your videos and read some of the posts from the guys in here who's opinions I respect. 

 

I made my comment because I genuinely believe that it's a very simple thing that can completely change a swing like yours. 

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44 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I watched all your videos and read some of the posts from the guys in here who's opinions I respect. 

 

I made my comment because I genuinely believe that it's a very simple thing that can completely change a swing like yours. 

Can you send a link to a video where this is explained? Btw I know that hands should be in front of body all the time. Like lifting arms a bit, turn torso and there it is - a full backswing. But theory and swing with a ball is so different. 
 

i need to post also video where I just to a simple practise swing like free Motion with perfect positions. But no chance to have this somehow with a ball. 

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Just now, naj959 said:

Dude you have guys giving you keys to fixing your problems and you blow them off? Saying you can't change movement patterns is a cop out and you'll be stuck with the same misses until you fix the fundamental flaws. I commend @Valtiel for being uber patient.

I don’t want to blow someone off. Maybe it sounds like but I am not a native English speaker which is probably obv. 
 

sorry for that but here are so man Tipps and ideas - which makes it even more difficult and I described my lessons with a pro - that’s always number one Tipp - to go to a pro - and than a new idea is coming up. 
 

i am totaLly frustrated. Since 10 years I do struggle that much with having tried out nearly everything. 

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2 minutes ago, ralemb said:

Can you send a link to a video where this is explained? Btw I know that hands should be in front of body all the time. Like lifting arms a bit, turn torso and there it is - a full backswing. But theory and swing with a ball is so different. 
 

i need to post also video where I just to a simple practise swing like free Motion with perfect positions. But no chance to have this somehow with a ball. 

The ASI thread explains it, but if you know it's supposed to happen you don't need theory. I recommend Monte's NTC. It's the simplest, clearest and most unencumbered way to learn how to make a good swing. 

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1 hour ago, TheDeanAbides said:

The ASI thread explains it, but if you know it's supposed to happen you don't need theory. I recommend Monte's NTC. It's the simplest, clearest and most unencumbered way to learn how to make a good swing. 

 

thanks for letting me know - never really watched the NTC Drill Video... the first part I actually figured out to avoid to much turn with just setting wrists - the second one I really need to try because it sounds like the exact opposite will happen. I was taught to bow the left wrist and here he is asking for bowing the right one which does the opposite of bowing the left wrist...

 

i also saw a video of him with another way to shallow the shaft...like unhinging very early, pause, and hit a ball... looks like simple drills I need to try out. But I am always snuggling if I do "YouTube things" in parallel to a pro...

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23 minutes ago, ralemb said:

 

thanks for letting me know - never really watched the NTC Drill Video... the first part I actually figured out to avoid to much turn with just setting wrists - the second one I really need to try because it sounds like the exact opposite will happen. I was taught to bow the left wrist and here he is asking for bowing the right one which does the opposite of bowing the left wrist...

 

i also saw a video of him with another way to shallow the shaft...like unhinging very early, pause, and hit a ball... looks like simple drills I need to try out. But I am always snuggling if I do "YouTube things" in parallel to a pro...

I mean the NTC series on his website.. It's about $30 and it's way better than the free ones. 

 

There's also the NTC thread here to get feedback. Of course, you're going to have to get over your resistance to change to improve...

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12 hours ago, ralemb said:

- do you agree that my issue is to get my shaft shallow, especially in transition - I think it is similar to the Justin rose video but some comments here say that my path is not the problem

 

- is it normal and "correct" that a new idea fells completely strange and controlled and not natural to work on with the longterm goal that this move will go into the "natural" swing where I cannot think, like on the course especially?

 

- i think with driver as said, I am way to tense with everything, so I will try to free up a bit plus the "bring the club more shallow".

 

 

PPS: Please see this video of me in 2013 - those days we worked exactly on the same - like you see in the beginning of the clubhead-down-drill. This was the same pro with working on a more shallow path:

 

 

 

 


Answering the three questions I left quoted above:

1) Don't worry about shaft plane, that is not your main problem. Your problem currently is still the same exact things we discussed all the way back in the beginning of this thread. Your hands and arms are getting in to very bad positions that you don't have the means to recover from. No amount of thinking about shaft plane or trying these smaller, more conventional changes is going to help. Your hands are stuck behind you, and you get them stuck even worse in transition with an unorthodox downswing move. That is it. That is ALL you need to worry about right now. 

2) YES. Big swing changes can and should feel uncomfortable to start with. That is because you're trying to unlearn a bunch of learned behaviors that are themselves "comfortable" in a way, but think about this logically; if what feels comfortable produces inconsistent and bad results, then you can't use comfort as any sort of measure of right and wrong. 

3) The driver will almost always be the club that shows flaws the most, especially when those flaws involve getting stuck. It is the longest, and therefore the most prone to getting in bad positions. 

Your video from 2013 is helpful because it shows both how things used to be much better, but also that you have a the same weird downswing move, the one you described as "a very early wrist action that the right hand is pushing over left towards the ball, shaft getting steep". That is an accurate description, and if this has been a part of your swing for this long then that explains why you're having so much trouble now:

436400291_ScreenShot2021-09-07at2_54_47PM.png.9ebbd911ad3bc1bf588740f424104d21.png

These are DRASTICALLY different backswing positions, to the point that I went back to double check that they were even both you. In 2013 you were in a pretty textbook position, whereas everything about the 2021 position and sequence is worse. However, both swings still have this move:

 ralebOldDownswing.gif.ddf0c99dd130c15192fe381fdfb833ab.gifXanderDownswing.gif.2f2dae06930e80fc11e262deeeae4ce6.gif

That move you're doing is basically the opposite of what you should be, and given that this has persisted likely 10+ years, I think it is safe to say that it is the driving force behind your problems. You're set up to do exactly what Xander here does; simply letting everything fall down on plane, but you do the opposite. 

What is REALLY important is how this relates to your present swing. You're doing this same bad move but from a FAR worse position at the top. Your fairly textbook position in 2013 meant you could get away with more flaws. Your hands weren't stuck behind you and the club wasn't across the line, so while this move was/is still very bad, it didn't "break" your swing nearly as much. It is now however, because your swing is in a position that makes it almost impossible to recover from this move. 


I'd suggest simply focusing on getting back to the positions you had here in 2013 as that gives you a decent chance at then addressing this steepening move from a better position.

Also I think the language barrier is perhaps creating issues with a lot of these terms, specifically the idea of what constitutes things like steep/shallow and behind/stuck. The old 2013 "
No Turn Cast Swing Drill" on Monte's youtube channel describes exactly what you're doing wrong:
 


0:48 - 1:02 - When he talks about arms getting behind the turn, that is what you're doing with your current swing do a very strong degree. 

1:03 - 1:22 - Again exactly the problem you have with the takeaway with your current swing. Flat and inside = dead. When he says "your arms are behind your turn and you end up too flat", that is what we have been talking about. 

Don't think too hard about ANYTHING else. These are the problems with your takeaway, and the prior gifs show the problems with your transition, those are the only things you need to worry about. And if you have had the same coach during this whole period that has been seeing you while your swing regressed from pretty fundamentally sound in 2013 to what it is now, STOP SEEING HIM. He is either taking you in the complete wrong direction or he is incapable of redirecting you back in the right direction based on whatever has changed between then and now. 

If you have any questions, please ask, but everything should be pointed towards moving your swing back to what it was previously, and I will tell you if you're getting off base and thinking/focusing on the wrong things. 

 

Edited by Valtiel
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Thanks a lot, Valtiel!

 

to comment to your questions (and adding one or two)

 

1. I actually think that my backswing is better than what I am being referred to, as this was a really bad session and I worked already (because of this thread here) on being not that deep behind me at the top position. Obviously I need to put in a new video here. 

 

2. the pro I was a a week ago was the one of 2013 but I was not seeing him for a year and I stopped golfing between 2014 and 2018 because of kids. In 2018 to 2020 I was seeing him but also tried other coaches and a lot of self experimenting.

 

3. I don’t know why my downswing move is as it is but I can imagine that it is very hard to change. I have no clue what to try differently to not do what I am doing. 
 

4. I like the NTC drill - never seen this before but I think in my case it is not the right thing based on my current move where the right hand is already so dominant. Monte says to push the right hand through the ball - isn’t it already what I am doing and obv not so good?

 

to sum up - I think my backswing top position is way better as in the video here and I saw this in the video system at the pro and then the pro is addressing the same thing: right hand comes over the left etc and that’s why we tried out some shallowing the club idea / keeping right hand / elbow more behind the left stuff. So this is probably where my pro identifying the same issues and he is also saying that these are issues I always had. 
 

my hope always was to find one drill which suits me but I was not successful for now. 
 

so it would be interesting of NTC is worth to try out or if this does not make sense at all. Regardless of it is something for me I cannot believe is the idea behind the drill is successful for so many people 🙂

 

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19 minutes ago, ralemb said:

Thanks a lot, Valtiel!

 

to comment to your questions (and adding one or two)

 

1. I actually think that my backswing is better than what I am being referred to, as this was a really bad session and I worked already (because of this thread here) on being not that deep behind me at the top position. Obviously I need to put in a new video here. 

 

2. the pro I was a a week ago was the one of 2013 but I was not seeing him for a year and I stopped golfing between 2014 and 2018 because of kids. In 2018 to 2020 I was seeing him but also tried other coaches and a lot of self experimenting.

 

3. I don’t know why my downswing move is as it is but I can imagine that it is very hard to change. I have no clue what to try differently to not do what I am doing. 
 

4. I like the NTC drill - never seen this before but I think in my case it is not the right thing based on my current move where the right hand is already so dominant. Monte says to push the right hand through the ball - isn’t it already what I am doing and obv not so good?

 

to sum up - I think my backswing top position is way better as in the video here and I saw this in the video system at the pro and then the pro is addressing the same thing: right hand comes over the left etc and that’s why we tried out some shallowing the club idea / keeping right hand / elbow more behind the left stuff. So this is probably where my pro identifying the same issues and he is also saying that these are issues I always had. 
 

my hope always was to find one drill which suits me but I was not successful for now. 
 

so it would be interesting of NTC is worth to try out or if this does not make sense at all. Regardless of it is something for me I cannot believe is the idea behind the drill is successful for so many people 🙂

 

This is why you need the new NTC series. It's EXACTLY the move you need - both backswing and transition. It's a decade newer then the old YouTube clip and has evolved since then. It's 27 dollars and it's changed so many lives. 

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I had chronic shanks for 18 months and I believe the issue was 2 things for me..... rolling club inside by lifting the handle and the early turn that Monte talks about.

 

Basically I was stuck in most swings and had to early extend to get to the ball = shanks.

 

The first part of NTC is amazing.... "forget about turning" and move your arms the way that you usually would and look at your position. Perfect.  The body doesn't need to be told to turn - its already doing it.  So when I was turning I was getting my arms so far behind me.

 

I love the Jim Waldron Swing Illusion which I believe also compliments what Monte is advocating - I moved my arms across my body, they move up infront of body.  I am working on NTC and whilstI am far from cracking it - the first part of it should sort out any shanks.

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Thanks to everyone for so much willingness to help...just tried NTC with an airball in the backyard (luckily) and shanked it so bad - so I think this drill is exact the opposite what I needs to do and what my pro is trying to avoid:

 

the the right hand bows to early which results in flipping and shanks as the clubhead is thrown towards the ball but it should stay „shallow“, behind me etc..

 

I know I am a hard student with all those problems but with trying new and new stuff it is most of the time getting worse and I am more confused than ever tbh.

 

I COULD understand the NTC if the idea was to habe the left wrist bowed and the right wrist exactly bowed in the opposite direction with than trying to push this right wrist into the impact - but the flipping idea towards impact (what helps a lot of people if you see the comments) for me is probably a very dangerous idea.

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9 minutes ago, ralemb said:

Thanks to everyone for so much willingness to help...just tried NTC with an airball in the backyard (luckily) and shanked it so bad - so I think this drill is exact the opposite what I needs to do and what my pro is trying to avoid:

 

the the right hand bows to early which results in flipping and shanks as the clubhead is thrown towards the ball but it should stay „shallow“, behind me etc..

 

I know I am a hard student with all those problems but with trying new and new stuff it is most of the time getting worse and I am more confused than ever tbh.

 

I COULD understand the NTC if the idea was to habe the left wrist bowed and the right wrist exactly bowed in the opposite direction with than trying to push this right wrist into the impact - but the flipping idea towards impact (what helps a lot of people if you see the comments) for me is probably a very dangerous idea.

Okay, I'm out again. You literally tried your own interpretation of the move that is present in every single good swing once and decided that it's not for you?

You cannot make any move work with your backswing. I genuinely hope you can understand that one day and accept that there's no quick fix for  move like yours. 

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sorry, I dont understand comepletely. Monte ist saying bowing the right wrist as a idea which then results in NOT bowing but getting hands perfectly ahead the ball. in my case, as I bow the right wrist in reality as a swing fault, it gets even worse when I try to bow it. Cannot explain any better.

 

My backswing is already better and I tried with half swings as well where the hands are definitely way better in position as in a full or even oversewing.

 

I try to make some videos as said with my current swing without thinking, with the idea of my pro and maybe also with idea of NTC on the range with real golfballs etc. oft course.

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3 minutes ago, ralemb said:

sorry, I dont understand comepletely. Monte ist saying bowing the right wrist as a idea which then results in NOT bowing but getting hands perfectly ahead the ball. in my case, as I bow the right wrist in reality as a swing fault, it gets even worse when I try to bow it. Cannot explain any better.

 

My backswing is already better and I tried with half swings as well where the hands are definitely way better in position as in a full or even oversewing.

 

I try to make some videos as said with my current swing without thinking, with the idea of my pro and maybe also with idea of NTC on the range with real golfballs etc. oft course.

I think that you need to focus on one thing here. I didn't realise that you're seeing a pro. The best thing you can do is either stick with that pro, find a better one or commit to one method suggested here (like NTC). 

 

Mixing a whole bunch of ideas will make your head explode and you'll get nowhere. 

 

Commit to one teacher (real or online) for at least a year and stop second guessing. That's the only way to improve. 

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2 hours ago, ralemb said:

Thanks to everyone for so much willingness to help...just tried NTC with an airball in the backyard (luckily) and shanked it so bad - so I think this drill is exact the opposite what I needs to do and what my pro is trying to avoid:

 

the the right hand bows to early which results in flipping and shanks as the clubhead is thrown towards the ball but it should stay „shallow“, behind me etc..

 

I know I am a hard student with all those problems but with trying new and new stuff it is most of the time getting worse and I am more confused than ever tbh.

 

I COULD understand the NTC if the idea was to habe the left wrist bowed and the right wrist exactly bowed in the opposite direction with than trying to push this right wrist into the impact - but the flipping idea towards impact (what helps a lot of people if you see the comments) for me is probably a very dangerous idea.


I'd like to actually see a video of you trying this to see what you think you're feeling vs. what is actually happening, that would be really helpful. Otherwise I agree with Dean in that sticking with one thing is definitely the way to go. 

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i don’t understand completely the intention in the NTC what Monte means with right wrist firing / throw the angles away. 


As my right wrist is hinged in the backswing in the position like accelerating a motorbike I see two options of throwing away:

 

1. decelerating or motorbike, so exact opposite or

2. the idea like swinging a hammer in the right wrist...

 

you see, I am very confused 😞

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23 minutes ago, ralemb said:

i don’t understand completely the intention in the NTC what Monte means with right wrist firing / throw the angles away. 


As my right wrist is hinged in the backswing in the position like accelerating a motorbike I see two options of throwing away:

 

1. decelerating or motorbike, so exact opposite or

2. the idea like swinging a hammer in the right wrist...

 

you see, I am very confused 😞

This is why you need the NTC video series. I'm not going to give this away because it's Monte's intellectual property. $26 will answer all of your questions. 

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I went to the range but hitting just a few shots because I was there with family. 
 

i will spend a Session with more videos and try,film, see etc but here I just wanted to show the „course swing“ - in this case just with a pitching wedge. 
 

i admit it looks worse than I thought. I thought my hands are way more in front of my body so you will probably say to fix this first. 
 

what I don’t understand is the fact that different pros don’t say this is bad but they say the back swing is pretty good. 
 

shallowing the club is not possible with a wedge for me - I can only try this good with a driver but probably in a video no change you would see. 
 

i an really frustrated and this is why I don’t like to see myself on video. It looks bad , I am seeing pros, I cannot do what I am teached. you cannot believe how frustrating this is 😕 

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I can sense your frustration, but it's fixable. However, if the pro you're seeing is telling you your backswing is good you need to dump them ASAP. 

 

One little tweak in setup will really help you. Your backside is too far from your heels because you have almost zero ankle bend. Add some in and your weight will be better balanced. 

 

From there you need to learn how to use your wrists properly. 

 

 

 

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I would like to show three old videos, knowing this will not help my current issues but to show it bit of history and why I am so frustrated as some party, especially the driver was so much better in the past.

 

Following my driver 2 years ago when I had the best shots and I was totally happy with:

 

 

 

Secondly my very best video at my old and now again new pro where I was hitting a shorter iron swing with the idea of setting wrists late. You see probably it is looking very good. I was never able to repeat it, thank kids-break started for 4 years - but this was how it looked in the past. But only at the pro and not alone afterwards.

 

 

 

 

and thirdly a scope video I think one year ago which shows a bit more how it goes at the pro... better position hands at top in terms of not crossing club and good hits with a better impact position etc. but probably still a lot of swing faults in general. The try here was to keep right hand unter the left during downswing to shallow club / not coming over the top.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know it only counts what I am currently doing but I want to show something to habe me maybe understand a bit better.

 

 

 

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      Corey Conners - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      Harry Higgs - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      Matt NeSmith - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      Doug Ghim - WITB - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      New Cameron Las Vegas covers - 2021 Shriners Hospitals for Children Open
      New Project X HZRDUS Smoke RDX shafts - 2021 Shriners Hospitals doe Children Open
       
       

       
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      • 15 replies
    • 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship - Discussion and Links
      2021 Sanderson Farms Championship - Monday
      2021 Sanderson Farms Championship - Tuesday #1
      2021 Sanderson Farms Championship - Tuesday #2
      2021 Sanderson Farms Championship - Tuesday #3
       
      2021 Sanderson Farms Championship - Tuesday #4
       
      WITBs
      Aaron Rai - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship
      Brian Stuard - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship
      Eugenio Chacarra - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship
      Davis Riley - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship
      Brice Garnett - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship
      Curtis Thompson - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship
      Richy Werenski - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship
      Andy Ogletree - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship
      Sahith Theegala - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship Will Zalatoris - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship Stephan Jaeger - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship Kevin Chappell - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship Jonas Blixt - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship Kevin Streelman - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship Sam Burns - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship Matthew Wolff - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship Jimmy Walker - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship Gary Woodland - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship Davis Thompson - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship Sam Saunders - WITB - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship  
      Special Galleries
       
      Odyssey putters - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship  
      Cameron putters - 2021 Sanderson Farms Championship  
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      • 5 replies
    • 2021 Fortinet Championship - Discussion and Links
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #1
      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #2
      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #3
      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #4
      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #5
      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #6
      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #7
      2021 Fortinet Championship - Tuesday #8
       
       
      New Ping putter - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      New Bettinardi putters & Cover - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      Ping Putters - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      Odyssey putters - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      Cameron putter and new ball marker - 2021 Fortinet Championship
       
       
      Sneds - WITB - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      Peter Uihlein - WITB - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      Charles Howell, III - WITB - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      Scott Piercy - WITB - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      Brandan Steele - WITB - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      Mito Pereira - WITB - 2021 Fortinet Championship
      Kevin Tway - WITB -2021 Fortinet Championship
      Joseph Bramlett - WITB - 2021 Fortinet Championship
       
       
       
      • 19 replies
    • 2021 Tour Championship - Discussion and Comments
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      Odyssey putters - 2021 Tour Championship
      LA Golf putter shafts - 2021 Tour Championship
       
       
       
      • 25 replies

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