Where does he drop?

[mukster]

My buddy hit his ball out to the right on a par 3. 
To hit his next shot he needs to stand on the cart path. For the record, he hit it from there and made a nice par. If he wanted relief, what are his options? The area to the right of his ball is thick rough. 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by mukster

[jimbo123]

Assuming he’s right handed, nearest point of relief seems like it’s in the rough (with this feet standing to the right of the path). I think he only gets relief from the path, not whatever conditions exist around it. 
 

 

[Colin L]

If he takes relief, it is going to be to the right of the path in the rough.  No other option.

[JimmyC59]

Just now, jimbo123 said:

Assuming he’s right handed, nearest point of relief seems like it’s in the rough (with this feet standing to the right of the path). I think he only gets relief from the path, not whatever conditions exist around it. 
 

 

Correct.

[davep043]

Agree with the others, looks like his nearest point of complete relief is to the right.  This is why you should NEVER lift your ball until after you decide where your relief is going to be.  

[Sawgrass]

I don’t doubt the other responses, but I can’t tell for sure (I can’t tell wher the right edge of the path ends).  Your buddy needs to select which club he would use if the cart path were not there, then position his heels just to the right of the path, then see where that club head would rest if he were to address a ball.  Then measure the distance between that point and where the ball rests on the path, then see if the distance is shorter or longer than the distance between the ball on the path and a spot about two inches left of the path. 
 

The shorter distance identifies the nearest point of relief, from which a driver length provides a drop zone. 

[jimbo123]

14 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

I don’t doubt the other responses, but I can’t tell for sure (I can’t tell wher the right edge of the path ends).  Your buddy needs to select which club he would use if the cart path were not there, then position his heels just to the right of the path, then see where that club head would rest if he were to address a ball.  Then measure the distance between that point and where the ball rests on the path, then see if the distance is shorter or longer than the distance between the ball on the path and a spot about two inches left of the path. 
 

The shorter distance identifies the nearest point of relief, from which a driver length provides a drop zone. 

Agreed with that procedure.  I have a hard time seeing that the final result could be to the left of the path, unless the path extends well under the ball and to the right of it.   Just my take on the photo.  

[jobin]

I see the ball next to the path.  What if, just to the right of the ball, we found a red painted line indicating a PA, but no tall rough grass. 

Could player take IO relief and drop in PA?  Could player, coz of PA, drop to the other side of the path in the GA?

 

[jimbo123]

23 minutes ago, jobin said:

I see the ball next to the path.  What if, just to the right of the ball, we found a red painted line indicating a PA, but no tall rough grass. 

Could player take IO relief and drop in PA?  Could player, coz of PA, drop to the other side of the path in the GA?

 

The nearest point of complete for a ball in the general area also needs to be in the general area, ie not a penalty area. I think that would mean that there is no point of complete relief on the right of the path, and so the nearest point of complete relief would be to the left of the path. 

[mukster]

Thanks for all the input so far. 

[Colin L]

8 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

I don’t doubt the other responses, but I can’t tell for sure (I can’t tell wher the right edge of the path ends).  Your buddy needs to select which club he would use if the cart path were not there, then position his heels just to the right of the path, then see where that club head would rest if he were to address a ball.  Then measure the distance between that point and where the ball rests on the path, then see if the distance is shorter or longer than the distance between the ball on the path and a spot about two inches left of the path. 
 

The shorter distance identifies the nearest point of relief, from which a driver length provides a drop zone. 

Properly detailed for a rules forum, but in practice, really?   If a right handed  player in this situation asked you which side of the path he could take relief on,  would you not  just tell him/her it had to be on the right?  Would you not have eyed it up on your walk in and maybe even feel relieved that it was so obvious ?  The kind you wish you got every time?  I mean, how narrow would a path have to be  to give you cause to wonder if the NCPR might be on the left?

 

I ask, not as a challenge, but because I don't believe in over-complicating matters in practice.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Colin L

[SNIPERBBB]

As a competitor, you are looking for anything you can use to get a favorable ruling. Its requires a bit of optimism. 

 Most of the time it's just swear and take your shot Mr. Gilmore

[ChipStrokes]

maybe i’m being dense here (wouldn’t be the first time) but why would someone need to take relief in this situation? 

 

the lie looks decent enough. is standing on the cart path to take your shot against the rules?

[antip]

5 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

maybe i’m being dense here (wouldn’t be the first time) but why would someone need to take relief in this situation? 

 

the lie looks decent enough. is standing on the cart path to take your shot against the rules?

Absolutely! It is a hypothetical, "If he wanted relief, what are his options?" Play as lies is far better than the drop alternatives, which look completely unplayable.

[SNIPERBBB]

33 minutes ago, antip said:

Absolutely! It is a hypothetical, "If he wanted relief, what are his options?" Play as lies is far better than the drop alternatives, which look completely unplayable.

I think some are just conditioned to take relief whenever they can. Especially cart path relief, though for stance relief it really isn't a thing anymore unless you're playing with metal spikes. 

 

Even when you have LCP available, you find you're better off just hitting the ball as it lies.  Especially for chipping as that fluffy lie you try to give yourself just makes you go under the ball

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by SNIPERBBB

[Sawgrass]

6 hours ago, Colin L said:

Properly detailed for a rules forum, but in practice, really?   If a right handed  player in this situation asked you which side of the path he could take relief on,  would you not  just tell him/her it had to be on the right?  Would you not have eyed it up on your walk in and maybe even feel relieved that it was so obvious ?  The kind you wish you got every time?  I mean, how narrow would a path have to be  to give you cause to wonder if the NCPR might be on the left?

 

I ask, not as a challenge, but because I don't believe in over-complicating matters in practice.

In practice I frequently simply eyeball situations like this and act.  But this picture doesn’t make it clear to me, especially with regard to the club selection.  If it’s a three wood, and the right edge of the path is further right than is visible, with the sidehill lie exasperating the possible NPR distance, it could be a close call.  I’d have no problem waiting for someone to do this right. 

[Colin L]

Well, we see it very differently, but it's just a photo.

[2bGood]

1 hour ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Especially cart path relief, though for stance relief it really isn't a thing anymore unless you're playing with metal spikes. 

 

I can't agree with this. Wet cart path and soft spike can be pretty slippy. It is not like it was with metal spikes, but I am careful about full swings with my feet on a wet cart path.

Edited June 13, 2021 by 2bGood

[SNIPERBBB]

14 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

 

I can't agree with this. Wet cart path and soft spike can be pretty slippy. It is not like it was with metal spikes, but I am careful about full swings with my feet on a wet cart path.

That kinda goes without saying...

[2bGood]

1 minute ago, SNIPERBBB said:

That kinda goes without saying...

Than I am glad I said it

[mukster]

As I said, he had a good line and lie and chipped it close. We were just wondering what one could do using the full extent of the rules. 
I wonder what a PGA tour player would be able to do with that scenario, using the rules. 
 

[davep043]

7 minutes ago, mukster said:

I wonder what a PGA tour player would be able to do with that scenario, using the rules

same as your friend, look at the options, and decide to play it as it lies.

[2bGood]

41 minutes ago, mukster said:

As I said, he had a good line and lie and chipped it close. We were just wondering what one could do using the full extent of the rules. 
I wonder what a PGA tour player would be able to do with that scenario, using the rules. 
 

Extremely unlikely the pro would anything differently than a 'knowledgeable' everyday player. (all depends on what you can't see in the picture)

 

People seem to want this situation to be more complicated than what it is, but it is about a straight forward as they come. The point being illustrated is the too common misconception that when taking relief you are entitled to a 'good' lie. You are not. If your nearest point of full relief  + one club length is in high rough, a bush, the middle of tree or provides you no shot at the green etc it does matter. That is where the relief is and you likely should just play it where it lies (including off the cart path at times).

 

Now where you can have some fun is when there are multiple Immovable Obstruction's in the area and you can take multiple drops if you use you club length wisely to get you in a better position. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by 2bGood

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

In practice I frequently simply eyeball situations like this and act.  But this picture doesn’t make it clear to me, especially with regard to the club selection.  If it’s a three wood, and the right edge of the path is further right than is visible, with the sidehill lie exasperating the possible NPR distance, it could be a close call.  I’d have no problem waiting for someone to do this right. 

 

3-wood? On a par3 as the 2nd shot? I think that is quite far fetched.

[Colin L]

28 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

3-wood? On a par3 as the 2nd shot? I think that is quite far fetched.

Be fair, Mr Bean.  It's difficult to estimate from a photo,  but the hole must be a good 30 yards away.  🙂

Edited June 13, 2021 by Colin L

[mukster]

Thanks for all the input

[2bGood]

6 hours ago, Colin L said:

Be fair, Mr Bean.  It's difficult to estimate from a photo,  but the hole must be a good 30 yards away.  🙂

I fairness, some guys might run up a hybrid or wood from 30 yards out. Not my go to club selection but I know plenty of guys that do this. 

Edited June 13, 2021 by 2bGood

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, 2bGood said:

I fairness, some guys might run up a hybrid or wood from 30 yards out. Not my go to club selection but I know plenty of guys that do this. 

 

Sure might but most likely not from that spot.

 

It would certainly create a vivid discussion in a competition when a player says to the referee that he is going to use his 3W from that location and as a result gets a relief on the left side of the road. And the discussion would be even more vivid when that player would change the club selection after the drop into a wedge 🤣

[2bGood]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Sure might but most likely not from that spot.

 

It would certainly create a vivid discussion in a competition when a player says to the referee that he is going to use his 3W from that location and as a result gets a relief on the left side of the road. And the discussion would be even more vivid when that player would change the club selection after the drop into a wedge 🤣

I agree - but I play with a few guys with chipping yips. They do some pretty bizarre things to work around them. For that shot in the picture they might even go putter, but more likely some kind of hybrid bump. 

 

Regardless, from what I can tell from the picture I don't think even a driver would get you relief on the left side of the path. 

 

 

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

18 minutes ago, 2bGood said:

Regardless, from what I can tell from the picture I don't think even a driver would get you relief on the left side of the path. 

 

 

Agree, no chance.

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Mr. Bean