Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Ball rolls through a bunker which has a bank with severe undermining. The ball rests on dirt/soil, underneath the bank which is green side. There is approximately 18” between the margin of the bunker and the back of the undermined shelf, and the ball is slightly more than 12” in the cavity.

is there such a thing a vertical relief? Or,  how does one drop this as unplayable and is there a penalty? I’m assuming the drop does not need to be in the bunker.

Callaway Epic Speed M10 Smoke
Taylor Made SIM 3W Titanium Diamana Limited
Taylor Made SIM 5W Titanium Diamana Limited
Taylor Made GAPR HI KBS 4,5,
HONMA TW747P 6-11 Vizard 85g
Cleveland 56* Smoke RTX Zipcore DG Spinner
Lajosi 808 Damascus, Callaway S2H2 Tuttle
Seed 01, Maxfli Tour

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 27
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

The PGA Tour players play on courses that are well marked and monitored by very well qualified referees and Committee.  We cannot guess how those referees would have ruled, but the the Committee and c

This helps If it is in one the X positions you can treat it as a regular unplayable.   

Very helpful pictogram, thanks. So ball not in bunker but unplayable, regular unplayable options only.   Thanks

Does this help?

 

Unplayable Ball in Bunker

 

With a one-stroke penalty,  a player may replay, or if they choose back-on-the-line or lateral, they must drop a ball inside the bunker. (R19.3a)

 

Or, with a two-stroke penalty, they may take relief outside the bunker by dropping a ball back-on-the-line. (R19.3b)
 

Knowledge of the Rules is part of the applied skill set which a player must use to play a round of competitive golf.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure I'm following this the description, but it sounds like ball is in a bunker face type of situation? The uncertainty is whether that bunker face normally has sand - if so, ball is in bunker; or if it is always dirt/soil without sand so ball is not in the bunker. If the cavity is not marked or covered under a local rule (Committee is responsible for marking the course appropriately), it would seem there is no free relief, in which case play as lies or penalty unplayable relief per one of the 19.3 options.

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, antip said:

Not sure I'm following this the description, but it sounds like ball is in a bunker face type of situation? The uncertainty is whether that bunker face normally has sand - if so, ball is in bunker; or if it is always dirt/soil without sand so ball is not in the bunker. If the cavity is not marked or covered under a local rule (Committee is responsible for marking the course appropriately), it would seem there is no free relief, in which case play as lies or penalty unplayable relief per one of the 19.3 options.

Correct, the ball is no longer in the defined bunker, and rests on soil in a cavity undermined past the bunker perimeter. Impossible to play as I had to go into the bunker and then reach in to an opening approx 1’ high x 3’ wide x 18’ deep.

Callaway Epic Speed M10 Smoke
Taylor Made SIM 3W Titanium Diamana Limited
Taylor Made SIM 5W Titanium Diamana Limited
Taylor Made GAPR HI KBS 4,5,
HONMA TW747P 6-11 Vizard 85g
Cleveland 56* Smoke RTX Zipcore DG Spinner
Lajosi 808 Damascus, Callaway S2H2 Tuttle
Seed 01, Maxfli Tour

Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, sui generis said:

Does this help?

 

Unplayable Ball in Bunker

 

With a one-stroke penalty,  a player may replay, or if they choose back-on-the-line or lateral, they must drop a ball inside the bunker. (R19.3a)

 

Or, with a two-stroke penalty, they may take relief outside the bunker by dropping a ball back-on-the-line. (R19.3b)
 

Not really, the ball is resting on soil at least 1’ past the margin of the bunker.

Callaway Epic Speed M10 Smoke
Taylor Made SIM 3W Titanium Diamana Limited
Taylor Made SIM 5W Titanium Diamana Limited
Taylor Made GAPR HI KBS 4,5,
HONMA TW747P 6-11 Vizard 85g
Cleveland 56* Smoke RTX Zipcore DG Spinner
Lajosi 808 Damascus, Callaway S2H2 Tuttle
Seed 01, Maxfli Tour

Link to post
Share on other sites

Very helpful pictogram, thanks. So ball not in bunker but unplayable, regular unplayable options only.

 

Thanks

  • Like 1

Callaway Epic Speed M10 Smoke
Taylor Made SIM 3W Titanium Diamana Limited
Taylor Made SIM 5W Titanium Diamana Limited
Taylor Made GAPR HI KBS 4,5,
HONMA TW747P 6-11 Vizard 85g
Cleveland 56* Smoke RTX Zipcore DG Spinner
Lajosi 808 Damascus, Callaway S2H2 Tuttle
Seed 01, Maxfli Tour

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Quasimoto said:

Correct, the ball is no longer in the defined bunker, and rests on soil in a cavity undermined past the bunker perimeter. Impossible to play as I had to go into the bunker and then reach in to an opening approx 1’ high x 3’ wide x 18’ deep.

Okay, ball not in bunker and not playable. Options are only penalty unplayable relief unless there is a local rule covering or the cavity is some kind of greenkeeper work/hole (sounds unlikely). 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, antip said:

Okay, ball not in bunker and not playable. Options are only penalty unplayable relief unless there is a local rule covering or the cavity is some kind of greenkeeper work/hole (sounds unlikely). 

Not a greenkeeper works, just bank erosion, the bunker is about 8-10’ lower than the green.

Callaway Epic Speed M10 Smoke
Taylor Made SIM 3W Titanium Diamana Limited
Taylor Made SIM 5W Titanium Diamana Limited
Taylor Made GAPR HI KBS 4,5,
HONMA TW747P 6-11 Vizard 85g
Cleveland 56* Smoke RTX Zipcore DG Spinner
Lajosi 808 Damascus, Callaway S2H2 Tuttle
Seed 01, Maxfli Tour

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Quasimoto said:

Very helpful pictogram, thanks. So ball not in bunker but unplayable, regular unplayable options only.

 

Thanks

From what I understand from your description -yes.

 

Note this could mean your only lateral relief option is in the bunker, so 'back on line' may be preferred. 

 

I only point this out as some players seem to be under the impression that the 2 club length lateral relief option has to be outside the bunker and they come up with some really interesting relief locations based on this false idea (like anywhere within 2 clubs lengths of the bunker🤨)

Edited by 2bGood
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, after watching the pro’s push the referees for extraordinary relief who can blame them. The attitude is I got to try, right?

 

I was was all for vertical relief for mine but that got ruled, and quickly I may add! I knew it was not an option but if Phil, Patrick, Bryson, etc can claim out of rules relief I might as well give it a go.

Callaway Epic Speed M10 Smoke
Taylor Made SIM 3W Titanium Diamana Limited
Taylor Made SIM 5W Titanium Diamana Limited
Taylor Made GAPR HI KBS 4,5,
HONMA TW747P 6-11 Vizard 85g
Cleveland 56* Smoke RTX Zipcore DG Spinner
Lajosi 808 Damascus, Callaway S2H2 Tuttle
Seed 01, Maxfli Tour

Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Quasimoto said:

Well, after watching the pro’s push the referees for extraordinary relief who can blame them. The attitude is I got to try, right?

 

I was was all for vertical relief for mine but that got ruled, and quickly I may add! I knew it was not an option but if Phil, Patrick, Bryson, etc can claim out of rules relief I might as well give it a go.

 

For Phil, Bryson et al that area would've been marked as GUR.

 

For you, sans markings, I guess yer outta luck.  shrug.gif

 

  • Thanks 1

Want more posters to read and reply ? "[EMBRACE] THE LINE BREAK"

 

Callaway Epic Flash SZ Hzrdus Yellow HC 6.0 Stiff

Ping G400 hybrids 17*, 19*, 70 gr Stock Stiff

Ping G20, 5-PW, DGS300

Ping Glide Forged, 48, 52, 60, DGS300

Cally PM Grind 56 KBS Tour 115

Odyssey V-Line (Today)

Titleist ProV1 (Yellow)

Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

For Phil, Bryson et al that area would've been marked as GUR.

 

For you, sans markings, I guess yer outta luck.  shrug.gif

 

The PGA Tour players play on courses that are well marked and monitored by very well qualified referees and Committee.  We cannot guess how those referees would have ruled, but the the Committee and course would never have let the situation arise - it would have been remedied before play began.

As with many things - perfect does come without an expense, ie, you get what you pay for.  Some courses take pride in their course condition, course markings and service/presentation, others are not as interested.

Edited by rogolf
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, rogolf said:

The PGA Tour players play on courses that are well marked and monitored by very well qualified referees and Committee.  We cannot guess how those referees would have ruled, but the the Committee and course would never have let the situation arise - it would have been remedied before play began.

As with many things - perfect does come with an expense, ie, you get what you pay for.  Some courses take pride in their course condition, course markings and service/presentation, others are not as interested.

or can afford to , more so on the labor costs than material costs.

2016 M1 9.5 tuned to 7.5
TM r15 3 wood
Adams Idea Pro 2h/4h
Mizuno JPX 900 HM 5-PW
Vokey SM7 48* F Grind
Vokey SM7 54* F Grind
Vokey SM7 58* M Grind

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, 2bGood said:

From what I understand from your description -yes.

 

Note this could mean your only lateral relief option is in the bunker, so 'back on line' may be preferred. 

 

I only point this out as some players seem to be under the impression that the 2 club length lateral relief option has to be outside the bunker and they come up with some really interesting relief locations based on this false idea (like anywhere within 2 clubs lengths of the bunker🤨)

Is this causing the confusion?

Edited by Newby
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Quasimoto said:

Correct, the ball is no longer in the defined bunker, and rests on soil in a cavity undermined past the bunker perimeter

 

How is the margin of a bunker defined in the Rules?

 

I simply ask as the margin is by far not as clear as it used to be and any cavity is a individual as such and may or may not be part of the bunker (i.e. within the 'prepared' area').

 

Edited by Mr. Bean
Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

How is the margin of a bunker defined in the Rules?

 

I simply ask as the margin is by far not as clear as it used to be and any cavity is a individual as such and may or may not be part of the bunker (i.e. within the 'prepared' area').

 


Doesn’t the simple fact that the ball is on soil mean it’s not in the bunker - 

the definition of bunker says that soil within the edge of the prepared area is not part of the bunker? 

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, jimbo123 said:


Doesn’t the simple fact that the ball is on soil mean it’s not in the bunker - 

the definition of bunker says that soil within the edge of the prepared area is not part of the bunker? 

It is more complicated than that. If the ball is within the edge of the bunker on soil where sand would normally be, eg it has been washed away by wind or water, it is in the bunker. See the first paragraph of 12.1.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

How is the margin of a bunker defined in the Rules?

 

I simply ask as the margin is by far not as clear as it used to be and any cavity is a individual as such and may or may not be part of the bunker (i.e. within the 'prepared' area').

 

All you have now is the definition of bunker and 12.1. IMO, everything you need is there. But a common problem is many courses have poorly maintained bunkers, making applying the rules murky.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, antip said:

All you have now is the definition of bunker and 12.1. IMO, everything you need is there. But a common problem is many courses have poorly maintained bunkers, making applying the rules murky.

 

What bothers me is that in 12.1 the term 'edge' is used but the edge of a bunker is defined nowhere. I guess the edge means the margin between unprepared and prepared areas but IMO it should be defined better in the Definitions.

 

Edited by Mr. Bean
replaced 'of' with 'between'
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Newby said:

Is this causing the confusion?

I am not sure of where the idea comes from. It would be optimists to think it comes a from a close reading of the rules😄.

 

Most of the guys I encounter with these ideas have never read the rules, but heard or were told by someone that is how it works. These are the same games that think relief from a cart is the nearest full relief with a good lie/shot. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

How is the margin of a bunker defined in the Rules?

 

I simply ask as the margin is by far not as clear as it used to be and any cavity is a individual as such and may or may not be part of the bunker (i.e. within the 'prepared' area').

 

Well going off 2bgood’s pictogram the bunker wall is not part of the bunker. So any cavity is not bunker. I have never encountered a rules official on a golf course for any event I played in so for next time I will just call it GUR and be done with it.

Callaway Epic Speed M10 Smoke
Taylor Made SIM 3W Titanium Diamana Limited
Taylor Made SIM 5W Titanium Diamana Limited
Taylor Made GAPR HI KBS 4,5,
HONMA TW747P 6-11 Vizard 85g
Cleveland 56* Smoke RTX Zipcore DG Spinner
Lajosi 808 Damascus, Callaway S2H2 Tuttle
Seed 01, Maxfli Tour

Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Quasimoto said:

Well going off 2bgood’s pictogram the bunker wall is not part of the bunker. So any cavity is not bunker. I have never encountered a rules official on a golf course for any event I played in so for next time I will just call it GUR and be done with it.

Calling it GUR in an event would be bad plan. You can’t do that without it being defined by the committee as GUR. 
 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Quasimoto said:

Well going off 2bgood’s pictogram the bunker wall is not part of the bunker. So any cavity is not bunker. I have never encountered a rules official on a golf course for any event I played in so for next time I will just call it GUR and be done with it.

A better option is to go through the process of playing two balls, or purposefully dropping in a relief area which complies with both GUR and unplayable relief and letting the committee decide whether a penalty stroke is necessary. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

A better option is to go through the process of playing two balls, or purposefully dropping in a relief area which complies with both GUR and unplayable relief and letting the committee decide whether a penalty stroke is necessary. 

Good plan, thanks.

Callaway Epic Speed M10 Smoke
Taylor Made SIM 3W Titanium Diamana Limited
Taylor Made SIM 5W Titanium Diamana Limited
Taylor Made GAPR HI KBS 4,5,
HONMA TW747P 6-11 Vizard 85g
Cleveland 56* Smoke RTX Zipcore DG Spinner
Lajosi 808 Damascus, Callaway S2H2 Tuttle
Seed 01, Maxfli Tour

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Quasimoto said:

Well going off 2bgood’s pictogram the bunker wall is not part of the bunker. So any cavity is not bunker. 

 

That is incorrect. An earth wall is not part of the bunker (as in the pictogram) but a wall consisting of sand (as we have 99% of the bunkers) IS part of the bunker and the bunker continues sideways as far as there is sand. Thus a cavity below the lip of the bunker may or may not be part of the bunker.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/14/2021 at 9:58 PM, Mr. Bean said:

 

What bothers me is that in 12.1 the term 'edge' is used but the edge of a bunker is defined nowhere. I guess the edge means the margin between unprepared and prepared areas but IMO it should be defined better in the Definitions.

 

The model local rules seem to agree that’s an issue, 8C-1 allows for rules clarifying the edge of bunkers where it’s unclear. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Our picks

    • 2021 3M Open - Discussion and Links
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
      2021 3M Open - Tuesday #1
      2021 3M Open - Tuesday #2
      2021 3M Open - Tuesday #3
      2021 3M Open - Tuesday #4
      2021 3M Open - Tuesday #5
      2021 3M Open - Tuesday #6
      2021 3M Open - Tuesday #7
      2021 3M Open - Tuesday #8
       
      2021 3M Open - Wednesday #1
      2021 3M Open - Wednesday #2
      2021 3M Open - Wednesday #3
      2021 3M Open - Wednesday #4
      2021 3M Open - Wednesday #5
       
       
       
      TaylorMade MG3 wedges - 2021 3M Open
      Mizuno 225 2 iron - 2021 3M Open
      TaylorMade Mini Driver - 2021 3M Open
      Scotty Cameron putters - 2021 3M Open
      New Odyssey putter cover - 2021 3M Open
      Bettinardi wedges - 2021 3M Open
      Rypstick training aid - 2021 3M Open
      Bettinardi putters and covers - 2021 3M Open
      Kuch putting right armlock - 2021 3M Open
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 12 replies
    • 2021 TPC Colorado Champ. @ Heron Lakes WITB Photos- Discussion & Links
      Please put any questions or comments here...
       
      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #1
      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #2
      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #3
      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #4
      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #5
      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #6
      2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes - Tuesday #7
       
      Titleist T200 2& 3 irons - 2021 TPC Colorado Championship @ Heron Lakes
       

       

       
      • 16 replies
    • 2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic WITB Photos- Discussion and Links
      Please put any questions or comments here.
       
      2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #1
      2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #2
      2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #3
      2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #4
      2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic - Monday #5
       
      Cameron putters - 2021 Rocket Mortgage Classic
       

       
       
       
       
      • 15 replies
    • 2021 Travelers Championship - Discussion & Links
      2021 Titleist T100 irons (in hand photos) - Travelers Championship
      2021 Titleist T100S irons (in hand photos) - Travelers Championship
      2021 Titleist U 505 (in hand photos) - Travelers Championship
      Mitsubishi Tensei K series (red, white & blue US Open) shaft - 2021 Travelers Championship
       
      Rickie Fowler's custom Cameron putters - 2021 Travelers Championship
      Scotty Cameron putters - 2021 Travelers Championship
       
      2021 Travelers Championship - Tuesday #1
      2021 Travelers Championship - Tuesday #2
       
      • 20 replies
    • Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Discussion and Links
      Please put any question or comments here.
       
      Links to the galleries...
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #1
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #2
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #3
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #4
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #5
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #6
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #7
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #8
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #9
       
      Adam Svensson with new model of Puma golf shoes - 2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry)
       


       
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #1
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #2
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #3
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #4
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #5
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #6
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #7
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #8
      2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry) - Tuesday #9
       
      Adam Svensson with new model of Puma golf shoes - 2021 Wichita Open (Korn Ferry)
       

       
        • Like
      • 4 replies

×
×
  • Create New...