Pull hooking/topping/duck hooking everything longer than 5 iron

[TurnDog69]

I have been struggling recently with some nasty ball flight and mishits. 
 

i changed a few things in my swing over the winter and now I’m struggling to find anything natural about it. 

I’ve been as low as a 10 handicap (driver swing was way stuck and steep but i could find center face) but since implementing some changes im trending back up to a 15-17. Can’t get off the tee and can’t break 90.

 

I have a habit to pull down the handle /get stuck and dump under plane. I try to fight it by not getting my hands as deep and working more on chest rotation. This seems to work for everything but hybrid/3 wood/driver as I’m hitting them clean like 3 / 10 times. I’m aware swing changes take time but I’m not even sure if I’m on the right path anymore 

 

backswing is fairly abbreviated right now but was hoping for some help. You’ll see 5 iron ball flight is a little hooky but ok, and the 3 wood/driver swings are just ugly. 

apologies for background music- there was a live concert in the park near me

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by TurnDog69

[Valtiel]

@TurnDog69 You have a great compact motion with a few decent mechanics, but I can see why you're struggling. Can you elaborate on the changes you felt like you were making over the winter?

I would pull back from thoughts about pulling the handle and chest rotation and look at your setup and what you're working with. When we look at fundamentals like grip, clubface rotation, body rotation, and club path, we'll see strong patterns and "match ups" with the better players up to the pros. It's like balancing character stats in an RPG style video game or cooking a complex recipe. I'll use a couple more exaggerated examples and then breakdown your setup, bear with me or skip to the bottom! 😅

Collin Morikawa - Very weak left hand and stronger right hand grip with closely connected hands (very long left thumb) with extremely aggressive body rotation. His weaker overall grip and hand configuration means a lower potential rate of clubface closure, so his ability to use his hands to "save" a bad swing will be less. Jordan Spieth is extremely similar. These are three very strong characteristics that need something to balance them out, and with Collin we see that in his neutral/slightly upright backswing (keeps the club connected and in front of him) and his bowed left wrist w/ a somewhat shut clubface (reducing the amount of rotation needed to square in the downswing). This sort of "matchup" with his approach produces the following:

Pros:

- Very stable clubface, less room for error
- Highly repeatable
- Anti-left
- Greater accuracy

Cons:
- Less power
- Dependent on a healthy, strong lower body
- Difficult to hit draws

- Bad swings harder to "save"




Dustin Johnson - Very strong grip but also more closely connected hands (long left thumb) and also with extremely aggressive body rotation. Similar to Collin above but with a twist. His strong grip means a much higher potential for clubface rotation, but he actively resists this and has even less overall than Collin. This gives him more power and a little more ability to draw the ball, but still requires a really good matchup, which we see with his very and upright and slightly laid off swing (club staying in front of him), strong body rotation, and very neutral path into the ball. 

Pros:
- Also very stable clubface
- Powerful
- Favors being anti-left, but still workable

Cons:
- Heavily reliant on flexibility and speed in the body
- A little more potential for the left miss



I use these two examples since they are both more shut clubface players that favor a fade, a very common matchup. They are maximizing strengths while minimizing weaknesses. 



On your end however, we see a problematic matchup:



First your grip is overly strong, way stronger than you would typically teach. If you told me you were struggling with hooks and all I saw was your grip I would say "Oh, yeah you should definitely neutralize that". A strong grip by itself isn't a bad thing thing, after all we are talking about matchups and there could be plenty of things downstream that make this work. Unfortunately that is where the problems are:



You're rotating well, but losing hip depth (butt coming away from the line, look at Adam for reference) and this combined with a cramped address position (not enough space for your hands) is causing you to come into the ball on a massively different plane. You have raised your hands up a ton while pushing your path out to the right. These are all bad matchups since your path wants to send the ball to the right but your clubface rotation wants to send it left, which forces you into a timing game where the most common outcomes are either a block or a hook. Combine that with the drastic lie angle change in your delivery and this is a timing nightmare that is responsible for your bad contact and nasty ball flights. 

There are a few objective improvements you should make and a few subjective ones that will depend on your preferences. Objectively I would neutralize both your grip and your setup position. Using the same exact swing you have now, rotate both your hands counterclockwise to weaken your grip until your hook straightens out and becomes more of block to the right, or even fades a little bit. Don't worry about this looking/feeling ugly, that is just step one. The next step will be to adjust your setup to give your hands more room. You'll want to combine raising them up slightly with nudging a little further from the ball (use Adam above as a reference). The third thing will be to work on maintaining your hip depth throughout your swing so you don't push out towards the ball in the downswing. This one is trickier since it is hard to see/feel, so I use the video below as a good reference. 

That should be plenty to work on I think, good luck and please follow up if you can!
 

 

Edited June 14, 2021 by Valtiel

[Z1ggy16]

Not going to give a great analysis like above but I know but I start to hook/top and overall have poor contact with the ball, it's because of poor spine angle, specifically where my upper spine starts to lean heavily toward target. Im no teaching pro and every swing is different but to help my swing and stay "behind" the ball more, I try to imagine/feel I really load into my back hip, and that my chest stays more over my rear foot, for longer.

 

[TurnDog69]

6 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

@TurnDog69 You have a great compact motion with a few decent mechanics, but I can see why you're struggling. Can you elaborate on the changes you felt like you were making over the winter?

I would pull back from thoughts about pulling the handle and chest rotation and look at your setup and what you're working with. When we look at fundamentals like grip, clubface rotation, body rotation, and club path, we'll see strong patterns and "match ups" with the better players up to the pros. It's like balancing character stats in an RPG style video game or cooking a complex recipe. I'll use a couple more exaggerated examples and then breakdown your setup, bear with me or skip to the bottom! 😅

Collin Morikawa - Very weak left hand and stronger right hand grip with closely connected hands (very long left thumb) with extremely aggressive body rotation. His weaker overall grip and hand configuration means a lower potential rate of clubface closure, so his ability to use his hands to "save" a bad swing will be less. Jordan Spieth is extremely similar. These are three very strong characteristics that need something to balance them out, and with Collin we see that in his neutral/slightly upright backswing (keeps the club connected and in front of him) and his bowed left wrist w/ a somewhat shut clubface (reducing the amount of rotation needed to square in the downswing). This sort of "matchup" with his approach produces the following:

Pros:

- Very stable clubface, less room for error
- Highly repeatable
- Anti-left
- Greater accuracy

Cons:
- Less power
- Dependent on a healthy, strong lower body
- Difficult to hit draws

- Bad swings harder to "save"




Dustin Johnson - Very strong grip but also more closely connected hands (long left thumb) and also with extremely aggressive body rotation. Similar to Collin above but with a twist. His strong grip means a much higher potential for clubface rotation, but he actively resists this and has even less overall than Collin. This gives him more power and a little more ability to draw the ball, but still requires a really good matchup, which we see with his very and upright and slightly laid off swing (club staying in front of him), strong body rotation, and very neutral path into the ball. 

Pros:
- Also very stable clubface
- Powerful
- Favors being anti-left, but still workable

Cons:
- Heavily reliant on flexibility and speed in the body
- A little more potential for the left miss



I use these two examples since they are both more shut clubface players that favor a fade, a very common matchup. They are maximizing strengths while minimizing weaknesses. 



On your end however, we see a problematic matchup:



First your grip is overly strong, way stronger than you would typically teach. If you told me you were struggling with hooks and all I saw was your grip I would say "Oh, yeah you should definitely neutralize that". A strong grip by itself isn't a bad thing thing, after all we are talking about matchups and there could be plenty of things downstream that make this work. Unfortunately that is where the problems are:



You're rotating well, but losing hip depth (butt coming away from the line, look at Adam for reference) and this combined with a cramped address position (not enough space for your hands) is causing you to come into the ball on a massively different plane. You have raised your hands up a ton while pushing your path out to the right. These are all bad matchups since your path wants to send the ball to the right but your clubface rotation wants to send it left, which forces you into a timing game where the most common outcomes are either a block or a hook. Combine that with the drastic lie angle change in your delivery and this is a timing nightmare that is responsible for your bad contact and nasty ball flights. 

There are a few objective improvements you should make and a few subjective ones that will depend on your preferences. Objectively I would neutralize both your grip and your setup position. Using the same exact swing you have now, rotate both your hands counterclockwise to weaken your grip until your hook straightens out and becomes more of block to the right, or even fades a little bit. Don't worry about this looking/feeling ugly, that is just step one. The next step will be to adjust your setup to give your hands more room. You'll want to combine raising them up slightly with nudging a little further from the ball (use Adam above as a reference). The third thing will be to work on maintaining your hip depth throughout your swing so you don't push out towards the ball in the downswing. This one is trickier since it is hard to see/feel, so I use the video below as a good reference. 

That should be plenty to work on I think, good luck and please follow up if you can!
 

 

Holy Moly man. 

 

You didn't have to do all that work.

 

Thanks- I appreciate it. 

 

Main changes I made over the winter were

1. Getting weight right in backswing (I overcooked this and have started a sway)

2. Resisting pulling handle down in transition

3. "flipping" back my trail hand in transition to not come in so steep

4. Reducing spin out/early hips. 

5. Keeping elbow in front of seam line

 

Lots of changes and I worked with a coach for a while but it got $$$spendy$$$ and I didn't see much of an improvement after 4ish months. 

 

I see what you mean about cramped address position. Wouldn't moving away make me want to goat hump even MORE? 

 

I'll implement grip change and what you suggested this week. Thanks for the help

[Valtiel]

4 minutes ago, TurnDog69 said:

Holy Moly man. 

 

You didn't have to do all that work.

 

Thanks- I appreciate it. 

 

Main changes I made over the winter were

1. Getting weight right in backswing (I overcooked this and have started a sway)

2. Resisting pulling handle down in transition

3. "flipping" back my trail hand in transition to not come in so steep

4. Reducing spin out/early hips. 

5. Keeping elbow in front of seam line

 

Lots of changes and I worked with a coach for a while but it got $$$spendy$$$ and I didn't see much of an improvement after 4ish months. 

 

I see what you mean about cramped address position. Wouldn't moving away make me want to goat hump even MORE? 

 

I'll implement grip change and what you suggested this week. Thanks for the help

No problem!

If you rotate incorrectly then yes, moving away will make the hump worse, so that is a good thing to keep an eye on. The video above shows how that happens, so it is important to focus on the fundamental of dropping your right hip back more than you swing your left hip out, followed by that little bump/pivot and driving your left hip back. I wouldn't focus on that to start with though as the grip and the overall setup position should be the starting points. Losing a little hip depth is ok, lots of great players do it, the key is to simply get the club back down on plane with room to release through impact. 

I agree with your comment about sway as well. I wasn't going to mention it yet but you are moving a bit too much in that regard. The proper hip rotation going back can help with that as the dropping back of the right hip should help get your weight into your right side without swaying as much. A lot of those other things you were working on are nice, but 2 through 5 are treating the symptoms instead of the root cause, that being your grip, setup, and club path. 

[TurnDog69]

13 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

No problem!

If you rotate incorrectly then yes, moving away will make the hump worse, so that is a good thing to keep an eye on. The video above shows how that happens, so it is important to focus on the fundamental of dropping your right hip back more than you swing your left hip out, followed by that little bump/pivot and driving your left hip back. I wouldn't focus on that to start with though as the grip and the overall setup position should be the starting points. Losing a little hip depth is ok, lots of great players do it, the key is to simply get the club back down on plane with room to release through impact. 

I agree with your comment about sway as well. I wasn't going to mention it yet but you are moving a bit too much in that regard. The proper hip rotation going back can help with that as the dropping back of the right hip should help get your weight into your right side without swaying as much. A lot of those other things you were working on are nice, but 2 through 5 are treating the symptoms instead of the root cause, that being your grip, setup, and club path. 

Thank you @Valtiel

I really, really appreciate it. I will keep you posted on updates.

 

Should I ignore hand position at impact for now (Hands being too high?) I'm assuming that's more a symptom than a cause

 

I'll work on this for a couple weeks and tag you when I feel I have some progress.

Thanks!

 

[TurnDog69]

On 6/14/2021 at 3:28 PM, Valtiel said:

No problem!

If you rotate incorrectly then yes, moving away will make the hump worse, so that is a good thing to keep an eye on. The video above shows how that happens, so it is important to focus on the fundamental of dropping your right hip back more than you swing your left hip out, followed by that little bump/pivot and driving your left hip back. I wouldn't focus on that to start with though as the grip and the overall setup position should be the starting points. Losing a little hip depth is ok, lots of great players do it, the key is to simply get the club back down on plane with room to release through impact. 

I agree with your comment about sway as well. I wasn't going to mention it yet but you are moving a bit too much in that regard. The proper hip rotation going back can help with that as the dropping back of the right hip should help get your weight into your right side without swaying as much. A lot of those other things you were working on are nice, but 2 through 5 are treating the symptoms instead of the root cause, that being your grip, setup, and club path. 

some updates. Swing is pretty compact right now while i work on changes.

 

Don’t own it at all but feel like I’m starting to find decent contact again 

 

early extension is limited now and handle lower at impact 

 
thanks for all the help. Long way to go and i need to figure this out on a normal length backswing still 

[Valtiel]

39 minutes ago, TurnDog69 said:

some updates. Swing is pretty compact right now while i work on changes.

 

Don’t own it at all but feel like I’m starting to find decent contact again 

 

early extension is limited now and handle lower at impact 

 
thanks for all the help. Long way to go and i need to figure this out on a normal length backswing still 

 

IMG_9159.MOV 6.78 MB · 0 downloads IMG_9093.MOV 3.83 MB · 0 downloads FullSizeRender.mov 7.3 MB · 0 downloads

Thanks for the follow up! Sorry I missed your previous message though. A recent website update has broken downloading (and in some cases viewing) video files for some people. Could you upload these somewhere/through something else? Unlisted Youtube video, dropbox link in PM, etc. 

[TurnDog69]

6 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Thanks for the follow up! Sorry I missed your previous message though. A recent website update has broken downloading (and in some cases viewing) video files for some people. Could you upload these somewhere/through something else? Unlisted Youtube video, dropbox link in PM, etc. 

yep-

 

just realized that. on YouTube here. Hopefully moving a bit in the right direction but open to maybe i haven’t haha

 

I know trail elbow is still funky and the turn isn’t great 

 

 

 

 

[BraxtonFullerton]

I just wanna respond and maybe word it in a different way that might click for you a little better...

 

Your current hand placement is in yellow, look how little clearance you have, you need to get them out a little further so your hands are out there lined up with your shoulders.

 

Much better maintaining your hip depth:

 

The only thing I really don't like seeing is your setup with driver:

 

Forward shaft lean is a steady no-go (not sure if the angle you shot at is amplifying this) from me dawg.

 

 

Here's your first move away from the ball, which is fine. Now here you are at shaft parallel; you've barely started your swing and you've already broken your wrists.

 

Here you are at arm parallel, not too bad. Then here you are at transition, notice the sway in these two frames using the rope line and other balls on the ground...

 

Now here you are at impact, shaft lean is still there, which means you're hitting down on the ball and probably adding a ton of spin and robbing you of distance.

[TurnDog69]

36 minutes ago, BraxtonFullerton said:

I just wanna respond and maybe word it in a different way that might click for you a little better...

 

Your current hand placement is in yellow, look how little clearance you have, you need to get them out a little further so your hands are out there lined up with your shoulders.

 

Much better maintaining your hip depth:

 

The only thing I really don't like seeing is your setup with driver:

 

Forward shaft lean is a steady no-go (not sure if the angle you shot at is amplifying this) from me dawg.

 

 

Here's your first move away from the ball, which is fine. Now here you are at shaft parallel; you've barely started your swing and you've already broken your wrists.

 

Here you are at arm parallel, not too bad. Then here you are at transition, notice the sway in these two frames using the rope line and other balls on the ground...

 

Now here you are at impact, shaft lean is still there, which means you're hitting down on the ball and probably adding a ton of spin and robbing you of distance.

Thanks dude. Exactly right about driver- it comes out low and spinny. I'm getting used to setting it up without lean, but still end up adding it. Tough habit to break. Seeing the shaft straight without lean feels like the head is 2 feet in front of my hands. Mental thing I guess.

 

I'll push hands a little further away at setup. I appreciate you catching that. 

[Scottbox]

@Valtiel is on it per usual. IMO, with the driver It's mostly setup : push the ball a ball's length more forward. Setup wise, practice bending over with straight legs, then flex. You'll have more space for your hands. Also, at address, push your hip towards the target an inch or two while keeping your upper body back. This will help you hit up more on the ball. And definitely get those hands back so the shaft's straight up and down and not forward pressed like with an iron. All this should help add to your very much improved in-swing mechanics.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Scottbox

[TurnDog69]

 

Here is the most recent swing. Sorry i don’t have a driver i don’t quite have enough room in this area for a full swing driver.

 

Working currently to not let my right hip pop out immediately, and trying to get a little better trail arm structure. 

my head gets a little wild but not sure what else.

 

trending down a tiny bit to a 14.0 currently. Swing still not showing up on the course. Goal is 9.9 ish by this time next year 

[Snarkesor]

Posture at address. Armpits way out past your toes. Get them in line with the balls of your feet. Start with that, I'd expect you'll clean it up a lot.

[TurnDog69]

Feel like the swing is improving a little but the score hasn’t followed. Most scores 90-95ish. Had a 102 today. Does anything stick out to you all?

 

Might just take a few weeks off as it hasn’t been a ton of fun recently. Figure that might solve the mentals a bit  

Edited October 31, 2021 by TurnDog69

[TurnDog69]

 

 

Lots of improvment over the past year and lots more still to go. I've been back in the mid to high 80s this year which has been nice and more balls have been playable off the tee than not. I'm still having issues with two way misses and a weird smother hook when I get dumped under. 

Long irons all just feel "clicky" and like I can't get compression. 

I feel like I'm probably tilting back a bit at impact on longer clubs and disconnecting and flipping through impact. Anything stick out?

Edited May 9, 2022 by TurnDog69

[Duff Specialist]

On 5/9/2022 at 1:16 PM, TurnDog69 said:

 

 

Lots of improvment over the past year and lots more still to go. I've been back in the mid to high 80s this year which has been nice and more balls have been playable off the tee than not. I'm still having issues with two way misses and a weird smother hook when I get dumped under. 

Long irons all just feel "clicky" and like I can't get compression. 

I feel like I'm probably tilting back a bit at impact on longer clubs and disconnecting and flipping through impact. Anything stick out?

 

Bro, dope swing. I'm no expert, but I share the same issues with long irons and woods off the deck as well, and my best guess is that lotta in to out path, push draw players might share the same problem. The only thing that's working for me right now is really driving the left shoulder down towards the front of the left toe to ensure my upperbody covers the ball (feels like my head is looking over at the opposite side of the ball) and feels like my right shoulder comes over the top for a fade type of shot for a clean contact on the outside part of the ball. But the shot ends up being dead straight or a baby draw bc of the inside to out swing tendencies. But I'm garbage so I wouldn't listen to me 😬

[TurnDog69]

1 minute ago, Duff Specialist said:

 

Bro, dope swing. I'm no expert, but I share the same issues with long irons and woods off the deck as well, and my best guess is that lotta in to out path, push draw players might share the same problem. The only thing that's working for me right now is really driving the left shoulder down towards the front of the left toe to ensure my upperbody covers the ball (feels like my head is looking over at the opposite side of the ball) and feels like my right shoulder comes over the top for a fade type of shot for a clean contact on the outside part of the ball. But the shot ends up being dead straight or a baby draw bc of the inside to out swing tendencies. But I'm garbage so I wouldn't listen to me 😬

Haha- actually staring at the front of the ball is what I go back to when the hook shows up. It's not as severe as it was in the first posts from this thread. Slowly getting there but still pretty inconsistent.