Can a heavy shaft cause me to flip at impact?

[TheGolfingRealtor]

Fitters and fitting tools put me into heavy, stiff shafts and I feel like I am flipping or adding loft at impact. The reason I think this is because my launch angle is 25* with a 7 iron and I am trying to get it to 17* to no avail. The shafts feel too hard/firm to me and I feel like I try to help them up in the air. The other possible cause is that I've had elbow issues the past couple of years and this year had surgery on each elbow. There is a definite fear of hitting down on the ball and reinjuring the elbows. Either way, I've been making this compensation the past couple of years.

 

I've built a demo 7 iron with the KBS Tour 105 stiff and it feels like the ball just pops off the face. Very soft feeling and easy to swing. I also built a demo lob wedge with Modus 115 wedge shaft and same thing. I prefer the feel a lot more and can feel the shaft working. I am hoping to go out tomorrow with my Rapsodo to get some numbers to see if launch comes down and distance goes up.

 

Some numbers from my last session (distance is carry only):

LW: 73 yards, 45* launch with PX IO 6.0; (I couldn't get any more out of this and it is a mid launch/mid spin shaft)

SW: 89 yards, 40* launch with PX LZ 6.0;

GW: 99 yards, 38* launch with PX LZ 6.0;

7 iron: 149 yards, 24* launch with PX LZ 6.0;

21* hybrid: 183 yards, 15* launch with Smoke Black RDX 6.0;

Driver: 240 yards, 14* launch with Smoke Black RDX 6.0;

 

A fitter once told me that launch angle should be 1/2 of the club's loft not including the driver or putter. 7 iron is 34* so I am trying to get to 17* launch. No matter what I do, I can't get there.

[Davethegolfer]

Fitter isn't correct. What is your swing speed with a 7 iron and what is the issue? Ball flight too high? Too much spin? Other than a mythical launch angle what is it you want to achieve? Shaft weight if incorrect can lead to swing issues but chasing a specific degree of launch angle isn't the way to go about this

[Stuart_G]

6 hours ago, TheGolfingRealtor said:

A fitter once told me that launch angle should be 1/2 of the club's loft not including the driver or putter. 7 iron is 34* so I am trying to get to 17* launch. No matter what I do, I can't get there.

 

Forget what the "fitter" said.  There is no one single ideal or optimal set of numbers for each iron.    Launch and spin in the irons is ALL about trading off carry distance vs distance control (decent angle and spin) and managing distance gaps between the clubs in the set.   You have to find what works best for your game and your swing.

 

Second, shaft choice (especially weight) should be made based on the feel and the consistency (dispersion) and accuracy of the ball flight, not launch and spin.   If you do need to tweak launch and spin, do that with the head selection and/or by tweaking the lofts.

 

But yes, shaft weight and even shaft stiffness for some (as well as swing weight) can influence the swing to alter the delivery of the club in numerous different ways.   More typically heavier will result in a later release and lower launch and spin but the opposite can happen as well.    But in general, a shaft that makes you feel like you have to work hard to get the right amount of loading is generally not going to be a good fit no matter what the numbers might end up as.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Stuart_G

[TheGolfingRealtor]

4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Forget what the "fitter" said.  There is no one single ideal or optimal set of numbers for each iron.    Launch and spin in the irons is ALL about trading off carry distance vs distance control (decent angle and spin) and managing distance gaps between the clubs in the set.   You have to find what works best for your game and your swing.

 

Second, shaft choice (especially weight) should be made based on the feel and the consistency (dispersion) and accuracy of the ball flight, not launch and spin.   If you do need to tweak launch and spin, do that with the head selection and/or by tweaking the lofts.

 

But yes, shaft weight and even shaft stiffness for some (as well as swing weight) can influence the swing to alter the delivery of the club in numerous different ways.   More typically heavier will result in a later release and lower launch and spin but the opposite can happen as well.    But in general, a shaft that makes you feel like you have to work hard to get the right amount of loading is generally not going to be a good fit no matter what the numbers might end up as.

Wouldn't a shaft that is easier to swing be more manageable to repeat and deliver back to the ball? Thus giving better results?

 

I think we can agree 25* launch with a 7 iron is too high.

[TheGolfingRealtor]

8 hours ago, Davethegolfer said:

Fitter isn't correct. What is your swing speed with a 7 iron and what is the issue? Ball flight too high? Too much spin? Other than a mythical launch angle what is it you want to achieve? Shaft weight if incorrect can lead to swing issues but chasing a specific degree of launch angle isn't the way to go about this

SS is 80 mph with a 7 iron. I am launching it too high and spinning it not enough. Isn't that flipping? Catching it thin on the bottom groove. Rapsodo doesn't capture spin but at a big box store, it's in the 4000-5000 range with a 7 iron.

[Stuart_G]

41 minutes ago, TheGolfingRealtor said:

Wouldn't a shaft that is easier to swing be more manageable to repeat and deliver back to the ball? Thus giving better results?

 

Not necessarily, but I guess it really depends on what you mean by "easier to swing."    A shaft that is a better fit over another might seem like it's easier to swing but that's not really about the theoretical effort needed to swing the club  (perception doesn't always match reality in the golf swing).  

 

Shaft weight (and swing weight) are all about matching the weight feel of the shaft to the players natural sense of rhythm and timing that allows them to get the best (and most consistent) sequencing of the different body parts.  Weight also plays a big part in the feedback on where the club is in the swing and what it's doing.    So too light can cause just as many problem with consistency as too heavy.

 

Shaft stiffness (for those that are sensitive to it) is about matching the feel of the shaft loading and unloading to the expectations of the player.  Some players can swing a wide range of stiffness with little impact on the swing.  But for some, when the feel doesn't match the expectations, it can mess up the swing.  In some cases significantly.

 

 

41 minutes ago, TheGolfingRealtor said:

I think we can agree 25* launch with a 7 iron is too high.

 

Whether it's too much or not isn't really the point.  It is what it is because of your swing and the amount of dynamic loft you deliver into impact (amount of shaft lean at impact).   In some cases, equipment can help a little bit but for most but it can only do so much.

[Shushwap]

5 hours ago, TheGolfingRealtor said:

SS is 80 mph with a 7 iron. I am launching it too high and spinning it not enough. Isn't that flipping? Catching it thin on the bottom groove. Rapsodo doesn't capture spin but at a big box store, it's in the 4000-5000 range with a 7 iron.

I am a flipper.. I know when I went in for my fitting he wasn't concerned with spin numbers as I hit the ball high and never have any issues holding greens 

He was focused on decent angle...he said for me that's what's going to keep it on the green 

Heavier shafts cause me to hook the ball more.. with my gap wedge we had to lead tape the head to stop me from hitting it thin all the time... 

A little lead tape and it's golden..no more thin shots 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by Shushwap

[Krt22]

5 hours ago, TheGolfingRealtor said:

Wouldn't a shaft that is easier to swing be more manageable to repeat and deliver back to the ball? Thus giving better results?

 

I think we can agree 25* launch with a 7 iron is too high.

I personally would not much too much weight on launch angle with such an inexpensive device, especially off a mat. 

[Hack Daddy]

You self-admittedly said you had elbow surgery and are consciously worried about hitting down on the ball. Yet, you're alluding to the fact that the shaft profile is the reason you're launch angle is too high?

 

I just want to make sure I'm understanding all this. No disrespect.

[TheGolfingRealtor]

1 hour ago, Hack Daddy said:

You self-admittedly said you had elbow surgery and are consciously worried about hitting down on the ball. Yet, you're alluding to the fact that the shaft profile is the reason you're launch angle is too high?

 

I just want to make sure I'm understanding all this. No disrespect.

This isn't a 2021 problem, I would say the last 3-4 years I've been having this issue and finally had it diagnosed in 2020 and then had the surgery in January and April of 2021.

 

I have video in the past where the club head has passed or is even with my hands at impact. I am trying to get my hands to lead through impact and knock off some of the loft. I watch a lot of Clay Ballard video's and he says you want to take 30% off of the stated loft. The whole effective loft vs. dynamic loft.

[TheGolfingRealtor]

I wonder if I should change to regular flex?

[Davethegolfer]

I would be inclined to find a decent fitter with an appropriate launch monitor 

[TheGolfingRealtor]

37 minutes ago, Davethegolfer said:

I would be inclined to find a decent fitter with an appropriate launch monitor 

How do you think I got into this predicament? All I have is Golf Galaxy, True Spec, PGATSS, Golfers Warehouse & Club Champion near me and I wouldn't trust any of them.

 

Just a very small sample size and not a true apples to apples...

 

147 yards to the flag, dropped 4 balls:

T100 7 iron, PX LZ 6.0, 34* - came up short with 2 balls

Z785 7 iron, KBS Tour 105 stiff, 34* - past the flag with 2 balls

 

Walked back to the tee with the T100 and 4 balls and came up short with all four.

[Davethegolfer]

14 hours ago, TheGolfingRealtor said:

How do you think I got into this predicament? All I have is Golf Galaxy, True Spec, PGATSS, Golfers Warehouse & Club Champion near me and I wouldn't trust any of them.

 

Just a very small sample size and not a true apples to apples...

 

147 yards to the flag, dropped 4 balls:

T100 7 iron, PX LZ 6.0, 34* - came up short with 2 balls

Z785 7 iron, KBS Tour 105 stiff, 34* - past the flag with 2 balls

 

Walked back to the tee with the T100 and 4 balls and came up short with all four.

Maybe the Indian is the issue rather than the arrow

[TheGolfingRealtor]

2 hours ago, Davethegolfer said:

Maybe the Indian is the issue rather than the arrow

Anything is possible I guess but this Indian has managed to get down to a 2.8 index and remain fairly competitive. The issue is I know my equipment is holding me back from all of my potential. 
 

everyone puts me into heavy stiff shafts and when I get on the course, I don’t get the same results. 
 

I want the softest shaft I can control that is not doing me harm. 

[Davethegolfer]

6 hours ago, TheGolfingRealtor said:

Anything is possible I guess but this Indian has managed to get down to a 2.8 index and remain fairly competitive. The issue is I know my equipment is holding me back from all of my potential. 
 

everyone puts me into heavy stiff shafts and when I get on the course, I don’t get the same results. 
 

I want the softest shaft I can control that is not doing me harm. 

Given what you have said so far it looks like you are left with trial ans error yourself until you find what you are looking for. Good luck with the search