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I've been working hard on keeping my hands from actively dominating my backswing in an attempt to keep the club in front of me. I'm trying to just turn and c0ck the wrists up. When you drive your backswing with your core instead of your hands and arms, does it shorten the backswing a lot? When I do it I still get around parallel at the top, but I wonder if my arms are still running off. It seems like to get the club to parallel and make a full swing, the player would have to be unnaturally flexible and the body would have to turn about 135 degrees. I've never noticed anyone who did that.  Is it a mistake to try to keep the club in front for the entire backswing?

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Don't know that i can answer all of your questions, but if you attempt to keep the club in front of you during the backswing, you likely will force your swing to be more vertical that it is naturally.  In many cases, I could see your shoulder turn being more limited in this vertical plane than it would be if your swing were more around you.  

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Here's a good example of keeping the club in front of you with a full shoulder turn that reaches close to parallel but I think it's all dependent on the golfer.  Plenty of guys on tour who get a full shoulder turn with a shorter arm swing that doesn't reach parallel.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CQHzH57HkPK/

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1 hour ago, getitdaily said:

No club needs to get to parallel. Not even driver. 

Agreed, but I will also say it doesn't take super flexibility to get pretty close. I used to think I was terribly inflexible which explained my short backswing, I was just moving incorrectly. Tilting and extending vs turning flat makes a huge difference where the club ends up at the top

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Too much attention is paid to the backswing in my golf swing and it's caused a number of other problems.  Started by looking back to see positions which lead to watching my arms swing and then to full body turns (rather than the upper body coiling over the lower body).  In may case at least I'm working to shorten my swing and gain back control of the overall swing and when done correctly I hit the ball much better.  I've even started very short swings and full follow throughs to get side bends better and that's worked well too.  Golf can really mess you up trying to get better all the time. Still a big fan though.

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11 minutes ago, jimb6golf said:

Too much attention is paid to the backswing in my golf swing and it's caused a number of other problems.  Started by looking back to see positions which lead to watching my arms swing and then to full body turns (rather than the upper body coiling over the lower body).  In may case at least I'm working to shorten my swing and gain back control of the overall swing and when done correctly I hit the ball much better.  I've even started very short swings and full follow throughs to get side bends better and that's worked well too.  Golf can really mess you up trying to get better all the time. Still a big fan though.

I would say it's the exact opposite. The golf swing is a kinematic sequence, each step directly impacts the next. If you get out of position early, it just cascades from there

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7 hours ago, exgolfpro said:

Don't know that i can answer all of your questions, but if you attempt to keep the club in front of you during the backswing, you likely will force your swing to be more vertical that it is naturally.  In many cases, I could see your shoulder turn being more limited in this vertical plane than it would be if your swing were more around you.  

Funny you say that. I have a history of:

 

A flat turn that's more around than tilt and extending. As a bonus I would rotate my hands and open the clubface during the takeaway.

Then getting the club a bit flatter on the downswing, getting under plane leading to a lot of fat and thin shots because the low point is behind the ball.

Out of necessity, early extending to steepen the shaft and try not to hit behind the ball.

 

Due to this for two years I've worked with an instructor to:

 

stop fanning the club open

Get more vertical on my backswing - Like using the turn to get the club to feel like I stand it vertically

 

It took about a year to be able to get the club above my shoulders at the top. The last few months have been on continuing the turn and cocking the wrists up to stand the club up what feels like vertical. I've seen it on video and it isn't vertical but if vertical is 90 degrees vs. the ground, it's probably between 65 and 75 degrees.

 

 

FWIW after that it's

Shallow the club in the transition

Use the turn to cover the ball and drive the club through impact

Hands low and left in the finish

 

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12 minutes ago, iSwing said:

 

...or, getting out of position early allows more time to handle a change of direction and building speed.    The Scots were correct, you don't hit the ball with the back swing laddie.  If back swings are so important what fact explanation beyond, "oh, he's an outlier" addresses the game's history producing myriad back swing patterns.    

 

Sure, if one wants a back move that mirrors an arbitrary plane in space bust your chops, go for it, but moving dynamic weight around efficiently has options leading to an efficient strike.  

 

 

Most of the time that simply isn't the case for golfers who aren't that good. Too many of these "backswing doesnt matter" folks who point out great players with different backswings focus on the minor differences and fail to recognize the commonalities (which most ams lack). They also fail to recognize that amateurs looking to improve and professionals who make it work have two different levels of time and talent to dedicate to golf

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4 minutes ago, iSwing said:

Amateurs looking to improve would have their time and talent best served by learning a proper strike, the commonality,  and working backward from there versus the other way around.   A good back swing promises nothing,but knowing how to inflict a good strike can produce that strike from anywhere, at any time.     

 

MrW5mUX.gif

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7 minutes ago, iSwing said:

Amateurs looking to improve would have their time and talent best served by learning a proper strike, the commonality,  and working backward from there versus the other way around.   A good back swing promises nothing,but knowing how to inflict a good strike can produce that strike from anywhere, at any time.     

I work on impact a lot. Slow motion, 1/4 swings, 1/2 swings and can make a lot of good feeling solid impact. There seems to be a challenge for me connecting the backswing to the delivery position that allows me to make good impact. If I can't connect the backswing, I am limited to about a 100 yard shot with the 1/2 swing.

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3 hours ago, iSwing said:

Amateurs looking to improve would have their time and talent best served by learning a proper strike, the commonality,  and working backward from there versus the other way around.   A good back swing promises nothing,but knowing how to inflict a good strike can produce that strike from anywhere, at any time.     

The backswing doesn’t matter theory has been disproven more times than about any other tired cliche.  Impact is a result and reverse engineering it almost always fails. 

 

There are dozens of examples on my Instagram of club head speed, impact and ball flight all having enormous gains with no change in intent but a better backswing.

 

Here are 2

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CPqnBKJt0rz/?utm_medium=copy_link

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CK67N6ElMcq/?utm_medium=copy_link

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7 hours ago, Krt22 said:

I would say it's the exact opposite. The golf swing is a kinematic sequence, each step directly impacts the next. If you get out of position early, it just cascades from there

 

4 hours ago, Krt22 said:

Most of the time that simply isn't the case for golfers who aren't that good. Too many of these "backswing doesnt matter" folks who point out great players with different backswings focus on the minor differences and fail to recognize the commonalities (which most ams lack). They also fail to recognize that amateurs looking to improve and professionals who make it work have two different levels of time and talent to dedicate to golf

 

15 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The backswing doesn’t matter theory has been disproven more times than about any other tired cliche.  Impact is a result and reverse engineering it almost always fails. 

 

There are dozens of examples on my Instagram of club head speed, impact and ball flight all having enormous gains with no change in intent but a better backswing.

 

Here are 2

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CPqnBKJt0rz/?utm_medium=copy_link

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CK67N6ElMcq/?utm_medium=copy_link


Agreed with all this. I've never heard "backswing doesn't matter" ever actually be defended with anything other than vagaries and poorly applied "but look at these pros!" examples. 

Almost everyone I have endeavored to help in the Swing Video section has gotten into a bad position in the backswing for various reasons that they then struggle to recover from, and I don't know that I have ever seen a pro in a "bad" position at the top relative to their mechanics and approach. 

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2 hours ago, iSwing said:

 

I'm willing to learn, how about sharing a few scientific examples explaining how the theory was disproved.

 

 

Of course it's a result, a result of supplying a path, for a face, using momentum.  It's the only reconciliation the ball cares about.

 

Reverse engineering might be better viewed as a process used by those measuring, by disassembling, back swings of elite golfers in order to see what makes them tick.    I'm not suggesting reverse engineering at all because that would be counter to my belief that the sole purpose of a back swing is to acquire momentum for later reconciliation. 

 

The back swing doesn't matter and is like a finger print.   Where it finishes at the top does matter because that's where reconciliation begins.   Just my take, yours is obviously different, but that's one of the more pleasurable things about the game:

 

The scorecard is the final arbiter, all the rest is just discussion.  

 

 

 

Oh the irony.

 

Sealed with a curse as sharp as a knife.  Doomed is your soul and damned is your life.

Laugh-a while you can, monkey boy.
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Most people don’t need a scientific paper to know if you stay out in the sun too long, you get a sunburn.

 

I will start with a specific example from a PhD.  Sasho Mackenzie’s report on effect of hand travel on club speed. Actually, pretty much anything he’s done related to backswing.
 

Phil Chatham’s data collection on AMM. All of the data collected on Hackmotion by numerous instructors as to how excess extension of the lead wrist leads to poor impact.  All of the data collected by AMG on gears.  The data collected by numerous instructors about how poor backswing pressure shifts affect the ability to get to impact properly. The data collected by golf-tec that has numerous data points, one of which is how poor tilts at the top lead to poor impact.

 

Empirical data from dozens/hundreds of instructors with a proven track record of improving golfers, showing before and afters of backswing changes that led to better impact.

 

Specific and general examples with measured and observed data.  
 

Can you hit it from infinite backswing positions…..of course, but saying backswing doesn’t matter and you can achieve impact from any backswing position is like saying you can get to Canada from North Dakota through Mexico.  Of course you can, but no one wanting to be as efficient as possible would say that.  Especially if you’re in a broken down beater and want to get there as quickly as possible.

 

Its hard for people on my lesson tee (and some instructors) to let go of antiquated ideas that have persisted for almost 200 years, but modern technology shows things we don’t want to believe.

 

 

Edited by MonteScheinblum
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1 hour ago, iSwing said:

As a reminder I said back swings don't matter, but where they finish does matter, but perhaps you missed that point, easy to do on forums.

 

 

In a previous discussion about a player's early extension issue, didn't you tell him that the problem started when he started his backswing - when he straightened his legs to start the swing? If it's only the finish of the backswing (however one defines that) that matters, why did you direct him to the start of his?

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I think that all of us agree that the only goal in the golf swing is impact, so to that extent the backswing does not matter if you can achieve a good impact. 
But errors in earlier parts of the swing require compensations or corrections in order to achieve a good impact . And the the more compensations the more complicated the swing and the harder it is to  achieve a good impact .

A good backswing, which requires a good setup and a good grip makes the transition basically a reflex reaction . Although some golfers  do have the ability to compensate for backswing errors during their transition, most do not . 
No one argues that there is one backswing that is best for all players. We are all different heights,have different length limbs , have different ranges of motion ETC. . 

 

 

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13 hours ago, iSwing said:

There are a few parameters that must be met in order to have various back swings and still be in good shape at the top like Hughes demonstrates.  One is working into the ground on the way back, and working down even more on the return which OP does not do- the spatial relationship between hands and body was increased prior to club even moving.

So.... The backswing doesn't matter. Only the finish matters. Plus a few other things.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/16/2021 at 8:31 AM, iSwing said:

The back swing doesn't matter and is like a finger print.   Where it finishes at the top does matter because that's where reconciliation begins. 

You know, I've work a lot on impact and at least for me there is a major disconnect. In just working on impact as I've seen it taught, the player usually starts at impact and pivots through to their desired follow through over and over. After getting that, they may begin hitting short chips working on impact quality, low point, face control etc. with this very shortest swing. As they begin to develop the ability to make decent contact, the player is usually taught to begin extending the swing little by little until it reaches 9-3. So far so good. The problem is on these short swings, at least for me while chipping the clubhead is outside the hands at the transition ~ p2. On 9-3 swings, the clubhead is still outside the hands at p3.

 

For me the challenge is the difference between 9-3 swings and even 3/4 swings. On 9-3 swings the club stays in front of me and is rather steep compared to a full swing because at that length there is little to no shallowing in transition. This puts the club in a different position at p5. The easiest way to describe it is the clubhead is slightly outside my hands or even with them. Once the backswing gets longer and the club gets shallowed in transition, the clubhead is a little behind the hands at p5, the delivery position. This makes delivery through impact very different. I can freeze, shallow and deliver but it's no longer realistic.

 

Yes impact is really important and many say it's all that matters. I think connecting and sequencing from address through transition has the most influence on impact and it makes them the most important parts of the swing to me.

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