Green-reading books likely gone from the tour next season

[me05501]

14 minutes ago, tw_focus said:

 

You don't get it. The only difference between "your notes" and a green-reading book is a few hours of copying. That's why this rule is an absolute joke supported by people who have no idea of reality.

 

I'm not sure I'm the one who doesn't get it. Equating a player or caddie's own notes with a commercially available greens book is a poor analogy under the Rules of Golf. 

 

One of the biggest tentpoles in the Rules of Golf is that the player is responsible for his own game. The only exception is the caddie.

 

There are very few rules restricting what the player and caddie can do to gather information about the course, the weather, distances, hazards, etc. Almost anything goes on that front.

 

There *are* rules restricting players and caddies from getting outside information from another player, caddie, spectator, coach, etc. Once you're inside the ropes you have your caddie and that's it. This is how it's always been. 

 

A player's notes from his own study of the course is very different from a commercially available greens book. 

 

[bcski]

This is what will happen, either players will pay to have the current years books traced an then incorporated into the yardage book and then add actual on course notes from practice rounds;  or they will not use them and wander aimlessly around the greens walking and pointing and conferring with the caddie - then second guessing it 9 times for 9 more laps around the hole...

 

SLOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW

 

For all you stat junkies out there.  Get your butts to a live event, camp out at a middle of the road green in terms of slopes and size, bring your notepad and timer function on your pone or watch and get some baselines for comparison when ever this rule takes effect....

 

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

 

There *are* rules restricting players and caddies from getting outside information from another player, caddie, spectator, coach, etc. Once you're inside the ropes you have your caddie and that's it. This is how it's always been. 

 

A player's notes from his own study of the course is very different from a commercially available greens book. 

 

Is it any different than a player/caddie using GPS and laser range finders to build highly detailed yardage books (when casual golfers can use them on the fly). Why wouldn't they be able to do the same when constructing their own green book (ie use the commercial ones for reference).

[me05501]

Just now, Krt22 said:

Is it any different than a player/caddie using GPS and laser range finders to build highly detailed yardage books (when casual golfers can use them on the fly). Why wouldn't they be able to do the same when constructing their own green book (ie use the commercial ones for reference).

 

Yes. The critical difference is that the player or caddie is doing the work on behalf of their team and not for anyone else's benefit. 

[me05501]

4 minutes ago, Par Be A Joke said:

This is what will happen, either players will pay to have the current years books traced an then incorporated into the yardage book and then add actual on course notes from practice rounds;  or they will not use them and wander aimlessly around the greens walking and pointing and conferring with the caddie - then second guessing it 9 times for 9 more laps around the hole...

 

SLOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW

 

For all you stat junkies out there.  Get your butts to a live event, camp out at a middle of the road green in terms of slopes and size, bring your notepad and timer function on your pone or watch and get some baselines for comparison when ever this rule takes effect....

 

 

It's a shame we don't have decades of actual experience with operating the Tour before these greens books became available. 

[bcski]

1 minute ago, me05501 said:

 

It's a shame we don't have decades of actual experience with operating the Tour before these greens books became available. 

Right?????  So much knowledge has been lost over the decades that didn't get passed on apparently...  But remember the tour gets a cut of the sales of the books.  All vendors on site and affiliated with events are contracted and pay for the privilege of being there...

 

Time to meet the kid we hired to drive us over to Torrey.  (always good to find a 16 year old golfer who will drag our butts to the tourney for a free grounds pass and $100 spending cash a day)

[Krt22]

6 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

Yes. The critical difference is that the player or caddie is doing the work on behalf of their team and not for anyone else's benefit. 

So as long as they get the readily available information, only copy the contours into their own book on behalf of their own team, then we are all good. Got it.

[me05501]

I mean if the Player's Advisory Committee was interested in banning player's personal notes this would seem to have been the time for them to do that. If they don't have an issue with it neither should we. 

[me05501]

1 minute ago, Krt22 said:

So as long as they get the readily available information, only copy the contours into their own book on behalf of their own team, then we are all good. Got it.

I can't tell if you're being snarky but yes, this is exactly it.

 

If the caddie decided to share his notes with another caddie or player in his group it would be against the rules. 
 

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, Par Be A Joke said:

Right?????  So much knowledge has been lost over the decades that didn't get passed on apparently...  But remember the tour gets a cut of the sales of the books.  All vendors on site and affiliated with events are contracted and pay for the privilege of being there...

 

Time to meet the kid we hired to drive us over to Torrey.  (always good to find a 16 year old golfer who will drag our butts to the tourney for a free grounds pass and $100 spending cash a day)

I don't think the tour gives a rats a** about a few thousand bucks per tournament, lol. I know/play with one of the big names that area, 100% a hobby.

[Krt22]

11 minutes ago, me05501 said:

I can't tell if you're being snarky but yes, this is exactly it.

 

If the caddie decided to share his notes with another caddie or player in his group it would be against the rules. 
 

I was absolutely being snarky, because this notion you are surrounding your argument on has nothing to do with the rules. If a player asks another player what distance they have, they are absolutely allowed to share that information. The tour disallowing the use of the technology during tournament rounds is a farce if they allow the use of it to build yardage books. It's a dog and pony show to appease the "purists"

[D0ch0l1d4y]

12 minutes ago, me05501 said:

I can't tell if you're being snarky but yes, this is exactly it.

 

If the caddie decided to share his notes with another caddie or player in his group it would be against the rules. 
 

 

I feel like you are maybe still missing the point Krt is trying to make.

 

Caddie/player arrive at tournament.

Caddie purchases Green reading book, same as they currently use.

Caddie transcribes/copies thousands of little arrows from the green reading book (which is to be outlawed) into the "yardage" book.

   - Green reading books and Yardage books are separate books. 

Caddie/player now have all data from outlawed books in legal yardage books.

 

 

[smashdn]

Just now, Krt22 said:

Because the guys who have used them on a regular basis will very likely take more time reading it (vs having the basic information available). A lot of the faster players on tour are over-shadowed by the mules. 

 

The basic information is intuitive for the most part.  The greens books get you in the ballpark in much the same way that your own knowledge/familiarity does or your own eyes and inclinations lead you to.  Then the actually reading of the putt occurs.

 

Whether you read a book or know that "this green breaks towards the water," "away form the mountain" you still end up having to actually read the putt.

 

Where I see it taking time is when guys break out the books in the fairway.  You get a tee sheet pre-round.  How long does it take to get your "best case approach aim spots" figured out?  Plus you have had a practice round or two. 

 

I am not against guys having the info.  I am against it bogging down the round unnecessarily and taking away from the requirement of making decisions out on the course.  Golf is a game of decision making as well as executing based upon that decision.  I hate that the more "advanced" we get the more we kill the nuance of what makes the game challenging.  We (pro game mostly) are denuding the mental aspects of the game little by little.

[me05501]

12 minutes ago, D0ch0l1d4y said:

 

I feel like you are maybe still missing the point Krt is trying to make.

 

Caddie/player arrive at tournament.

Caddie purchases Green reading book, same as they currently use.

Caddie transcribes/copies thousands of little arrows from the green reading book (which is to be outlawed) into the "yardage" book.

   - Green reading books and Yardage books are separate books. 

Caddie/player now have all data from outlawed books in legal yardage books.

 

 

 

Right. That shouldn't be allowed. 

It's pretty simple. If the player and caddie want information about the course they should go out on the course and get the information.

[smashdn]

38 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

It's a dog and pony show to appease the "purists"

 

It was the player's advisory council that voted on it.

Edited June 17, 2021 by smashdn
typo

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, smashdn said:

 

It was the player's advisory council he voted on it.

Precisely my point. You don't think pundits and naysayers are constantly in their ears, filling their heads with notions of what is an unfair advantage and what is not? This is essentially the guys who don't use the books thinking they will get a leg up on the guys who don't

[Krt22]

13 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

Right. That shouldn't be allowed. 

It's pretty simple. If the player and caddie want information about the course they should go out on the course and get the information.

In which case they can buy a 3D scanning tool and get the information themselves. 

[stingerfade]

Anyone who says you can just simply write the same info as notes haven’t seen one of these actual books. It would take you a week to write up one green. Plus you’d need a color wheel and a bunch of sharpies 

Edited June 17, 2021 by stingerfade

[smashdn]

5 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

Precisely my point. You don't think pundits and naysayers are constantly in their ears, filling their heads with notions of what is an unfair advantage and what is not? This is essentially the guys who don't use the books thinking they will get a leg up on the guys who don't

 

Just so I understand what you are saying correctly. Commentators and those with a negative stance on greens reading books have the ears of and are influencing these guys > https://www.pgatourmediaguide.com/intro/player-advisory-council <.  And have convinced them to vote to ban the greens reading books because these guys > https://www.pgatourmediaguide.com/intro/player-advisory-council < themselves do not use greens reading books.

 

Got to be honest.  Sounds like a conspiracy theory I just cannot subscribe to.

 

 

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, stingerfade said:

Anyone who says you can just simply write the same info as notes haven’t seen one of these actual books. It would take you a week to write up one green

I agree with that, but at the same time I don't think the really fine detail really helps make a statistically significant different amount of putts. There are a ton of variables that go into making just about any putt outside of ~8ft or so that are much larger in magnitude than the resolution of the vectors in the books. They are more a sanity check/confidence booster than anything. 

[Krt22]

3 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Just so I understand what you are saying correctly. Commentators and those with a negative stance on greens reading books have the ears of and are influencing these guys > https://www.pgatourmediaguide.com/intro/player-advisory-council <.  And have convinced them to vote to ban the greens reading books because these guys > https://www.pgatourmediaguide.com/intro/player-advisory-council < themselves do not use greens reading books.

 

Got to be honest.  Sounds like a conspiracy theory I just cannot subscribe to.

 

 

If you don't think the opinions of PGA tour players are constantly influenced by outside agencies, I am not sure what to tell you. If there was statistically significant data showing using a greens book provided players with an advantage vs not, I would 100% be for the ban. I just don't think they are all that influential and banning them is solving a problem that largely does not exist.

[woodriff]

1 hour ago, Par Be A Joke said:

This is what will happen, either players will pay to have the current years books traced an then incorporated into the yardage book and then add actual on course notes from practice rounds;  or they will not use them and wander aimlessly around the greens walking and pointing and conferring with the caddie - then second guessing it 9 times for 9 more laps around the hole...

 

SLOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWW

 

For all you stat junkies out there.  Get your butts to a live event, camp out at a middle of the road green in terms of slopes and size, bring your notepad and timer function on your pone or watch and get some baselines for comparison when ever this rule takes effect....

 

This ^^^^^^^.  As I eluded too before, green books are a baseline. A general rule of thumb. Let’s say it’s 100 degrees, and a player slogs along to the 18th green. He looks at the green but can’t recall a few of the subtleties. A green book will give a player a general idea. 
Take these books away and get ready for some of the slowest play ever. 

[me05501]

1 minute ago, Krt22 said:

I agree with that, but at the same time I don't think the really fine detail really helps make a statistically significant different amount of putts. There are a ton of variables that go into making just about any putt outside of ~8ft or so that are much larger in magnitude than the resolution of the vectors in the books. They are more a sanity check/confidence booster than anything. 

 

Exactly right, in bold! 

 

The game is meant to test the player's physical AND mental skill, including their ability to manage uncertainty. Being able to consult a laser-accurate guidebook that removes doubt from the player's mind is antithetical to the spirit of the game. 

[Krt22]

2 minutes ago, me05501 said:

 

Exactly right, in bold! 

 

The game is meant to test the player's physical AND mental skill, including their ability to manage uncertainty. Being able to consult a laser-accurate guidebook that removes doubt from the player's mind is antithetical to the spirit of the game. 

lol, let me dust off my jump to conclusions mat. If we really want to test the players true mental skill, every single shot should be on a shot clock. All of the mental gymnastics some players do to find their mental focus is absurd

[smashdn]

2 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

They are more a sanity check/confidence booster than anything. 

 

Which takes time unnecessarily.  

 

Back to what I was saying earlier.  Part of being a knowledgeable golfer is knowing that "on old green number 6 the ball always breaks to the left even though it looks like it shouldn't."  There is a skill required to go get that info while out on the course. Either you have a caddie that can get it for you or you yourself have that ability or as a team you complement one another and together get it.  Buying it from a book shortcuts that skill/ability A and B if all it is doing is a "sanity/check/confidence booster" is not providing much value in the grand scheme of a golf tournament so appears, to me at least, to not be that great a loss if they go by the wayside.

 

Buy them and use them to develop a strategy all you want - outside of competitive rounds.  You can't consult google earth while you are playing right?  But you can measure stuff all you want off the course.

 

There is an awesome discussion about DECADE going on on GCA that dovetails into this discussion somewhat.  Pro golfers want to remove variables.  That is understandable given they are playing for cash.  Golf is a game asking you to factor in all the variables to make a correct decision and execute it.  Find ball and evaluate the variables yet again.  If you strip the game of the variables you are left with a TopGolf-like experience.

[Fairways_and_Greens]

23 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

In which case they can buy a 3D scanning tool and get the information themselves. 

Or just buy a copy of a book and hand copy. 

[smashdn]

15 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

If you don't think the opinions of PGA tour players are constantly influenced by outside agencies, I am not sure what to tell you. If there was statistically significant data showing using a greens book provided players with an advantage vs not, I would 100% be for the ban. I just don't think they are all that influential and banning them is solving a problem that largely does not exist.

 

If they are not influential, then banning them will have no impact.  Get ahead of this before it has a chance to become an issue?

 

And if the players want to ban them, rock on.  It is their tour after all.  We just get to watch or not.  Our vote is with the tv clicker and buying or not buying tickets.

[wildcatden]

1. Ban Yardage/Green Reading books completely. Players can use range finders (with slope function).

2. Ban caddies. Players can use a push cart or powered push cart. Imagine the advertising space available on the push carts!!  Win$-Win$ 

 

 

 

[smashdn]

20 minutes ago, woodriff said:

Take these books away and get ready for some of the slowest play ever. 

 

16 hours ago, Frankensteins Monster said:

Be prepared for more Monday finishes due to darkness this fall.

 

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

If the presence of the books didn't speed things up, why would their absence slow things down?

 

Again, if rounds aren't now faster because of the books, how does removing them slow things down?  It is a net no change at best.

[gvogel]

1 hour ago, D0ch0l1d4y said:

 

I feel like you are maybe still missing the point Krt is trying to make.

 

Caddie/player arrive at tournament.

Caddie purchases Green reading book, same as they currently use.

Caddie transcribes/copies thousands of little arrows from the green reading book (which is to be outlawed) into the "yardage" book.

   - Green reading books and Yardage books are separate books. 

Caddie/player now have all data from outlawed books in legal yardage books.

 

 

They could make it against the rules for the caddie and the player to pull out any book, yardage or otherwise, while on the green.  A player could glance at the book while walking to the green, but once there, no dice.