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Green-reading books likely gone from the tour next season


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I have couple of green books. It only helps speed up the practice round as I know what to expect and what to practice. 
 

I wonder what’s next?

 

Should Aimpoint be banned? As you cannot test the slope with feet, no sticking out fingers. 
 

What about Spider-Man style green reading?

 

LOL. Options are limitless. 

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On 6/19/2021 at 5:42 AM, Big GG said:

If your son in law and his father took that long to read any type of shot on the course then I feel bad for your daughter. No books. Take it one step further. Once the ball is on the putting surface any player that pulls a book out of any kind gets a 2 shot penalty.

Yeah, I'm of the opinion, no books, you get 2:00 to read and putt or it's a one stroke penalty for time delay, no warnings, just a one stroke penalty assessed after the round. 2:00 is a long freaking time to read a putt. See it, read it, walk it off, come back and putt. No reason you can't do that inside of 2:00.

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Seems like the veterans on tour may be behind this idea. Makes it more difficult for those young whippersnappers to come out and be successful right away. Guy plays the same event on tour for ten years and he has played the course at least(if making cuts) 60 times in that ten year period. So now he knows from memory, and extensive notes, how the ball breaks around various pins.

 

Might just be a large part of why some of those veterans do so well at Augusta every year? No books allowed there.

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It is a good move if it is banned. Green reading is a skill and integral part of the game. Also, it goes beyond just putting. Reading where to land approach shots is a skill as well. Green reading books today have heat mapped landing zones which basically say where to land the ball for different pin positions. 

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They will still put the notes inside their yardage books. Not much will change really. If you look at books from 15 or 20 years ago, they were full of marks and lines, some pretty complicated. Saw Langer's caddie years ago marking the greens for him at Sherwood. Was incredible, and he did that every day because he knew the pins the next round. They will still buy the books and just transfer what they need. 

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I don't often agree with McIlroy but do so on this issue as well as the disproportionate amount of input from caddies on the greens.

My preference would be to see the books banned and no caddies allowed on the greens either other than one for flag duty which they would take in turns,caddies should not be allowed to influence players to the extent that they currently do,golf is NOT a team game.

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22 hours ago, charliefarleigh said:

I don't often agree with McIlroy but do so on this issue as well as the disproportionate amount of input from caddies on the greens.

My preference would be to see the books banned and no caddies allowed on the greens either other than one for flag duty which they would take in turns,caddies should not be allowed to influence players to the extent that they currently do,golf is NOT a team game.

Pros don’t keep the same caddie for years because they really like how he carries the bag.  At the highest levels it certainly is a team game.  Player, caddie, instructor, physical therapist, dietician……..

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On 6/25/2021 at 10:43 AM, kelpie said:

They will still put the notes inside their yardage books. Not much will change really. If you look at books from 15 or 20 years ago, they were full of marks and lines, some pretty complicated. Saw Langer's caddie years ago marking the greens for him at Sherwood. Was incredible, and he did that every day because he knew the pins the next round. They will still buy the books and just transfer what they need. 

I think that's fine, it gives an advantage to those that take the time to prepare more than those who don't.  Green books aren't going to go away, but if they can't be used on the course, it's up to the pro and caddie to get the information out of them prior to competition to be used while they're actually playing.

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On 6/26/2021 at 12:10 AM, charliefarleigh said:

I don't often agree with McIlroy but do so on this issue as well as the disproportionate amount of input from caddies on the greens.

My preference would be to see the books banned and no caddies allowed on the greens either other than one for flag duty which they would take in turns,caddies should not be allowed to influence players to the extent that they currently do,golf is NOT a team game.

Are they also not going to be allowed to give advice on the course with yardage, club selection, getting golfer back in the game mentally? I'd say at the Pro level a caddy is a team mate and that makes them a team. Think of them as a RIO in the back of a fighter plane. They work together to win.

 

It would be interesting though to have at least one tournament with no caddies and players are allowed to use a non motorized pushcart

 

Using green reading books doesn't matter to me one way or the other, they still have to hit the ball.

Not like they're wearing A/R glasses that putts a grid on the green and moving lines like video games.

 

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On 6/26/2021 at 1:10 AM, charliefarleigh said:

I don't often agree with McIlroy but do so on this issue as well as the disproportionate amount of input from caddies on the greens.

My preference would be to see the books banned and no caddies allowed on the greens either other than one for flag duty which they would take in turns,caddies should not be allowed to influence players to the extent that they currently do,golf is NOT a team game.

Beg to differ. It’s been a team game at the pro level since at least the 70s. Probably before.  

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On 6/25/2021 at 10:43 AM, kelpie said:

They will still put the notes inside their yardage books. Not much will change really. If you look at books from 15 or 20 years ago, they were full of marks and lines, some pretty complicated. Saw Langer's caddie years ago marking the greens for him at Sherwood. Was incredible, and he did that every day because he knew the pins the next round. They will still buy the books and just transfer what they need. 

They could do that with notes and stuff, but it should be illegal to pull the book out on the green.

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2 hours ago, gvogel said:

They could do that with notes and stuff, but it should be illegal to pull the book out on the green.

Your favorite players of yesteryear used their notes on the greens. Why ban that today?

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5 hours ago, Str8Putt said:

Are they also not going to be allowed to give advice on the course with yardage, club selection, getting golfer back in the game mentally? I'd say at the Pro level a caddy is a team mate and that makes them a team. Think of them as a RIO in the back of a fighter plane. They work together to win.

 

It would be interesting though to have at least one tournament with no caddies and players are allowed to use a non motorized pushcart

 

Using green reading books doesn't matter to me one way or the other, they still have to hit the ball.

Not like they're wearing A/R glasses that putts a grid on the green and moving lines like video games.

 

Caddies aren’t being limited in their job nor would they ever have an event without them 

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I wonder what the notable architects of the past would think about green-reading books - seeing lasers for measurement, more detail than what was used to build the green.

 

What would they think of toasters on a stick, graphite shafts, non-spiny balls, tees moved back, bunkers repositioned to accommodate driving distances, 502 yard par fours?

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On 6/18/2021 at 5:04 PM, Medson said:

I have couple of green books. It only helps speed up the practice round as I know what to expect and what to practice. 
 

I wonder what’s next?

 

Should Aimpoint be banned? As you cannot test the slope with feet, no sticking out fingers. 
 

What about Spider-Man style green reading?

 

LOL. Options are limitless. 

 

I think those are very different things.

 

I think when it comes to rules it's best to ask some questions to establish some guidelines.

 

1.  Is this replacing a skill that can strongly correlates with performance?

 

2.  Is this 'basic empirical information?'

 

3.  Does this hurt the pace of play or risk player/spectator safety?

 

4.  Can a rules committee reasonably and feasibly do something to prevent the player from doing this?

 

5.  Is there a precedent for this?

 

The main complaint I hear from the supporters of greens books is that it's nothing really different from yardage books.  I wholeheartedly disagree.  I think they don't have any real similarities other than they are books.  And the same with your AimPoint comparison.

 

1.  Is this replacing a skill that strongly correlates with performance?

 

For greens books I believe so.  Being able to spot different breaks is very difficult and can be the difference between a made putt and a missed putt or a 2-putt and a 3-putt.   There's more to making putts than reading the slope, but that's a large factor.  In essence, the green books tell you precisely how the ball will react.  Imagine if you had an instrument that could tell you precisely how the wind will affect the ball with terms of max height, carry and curvature?  

 

With yardage books getting the yardage has importance, but it doesn't tell us with any precision how the shot will play.  I may have 152 yards out, but it may actually play like 170 yards or 138 yards.  Furthermore, outside of getting an idea of what club to use, nobody can come close to hitting the number with any frequency.  

 

With AimPoint, it's no different than using your eyes and senses to get an idea of what can happen.  It's much like getting the yardage where you could easily be inaccurate in your assessment and it's more of an range of what could happen.

 

 

2.  Is this 'basic empirical information?'

 

Basic empirical information is something that one can easily obtain thru their own observation or thru standard information services.  Direction (N, S, E, W), temperature, humidity, barometric pressure and distance are forms of basic empirical information.

 

Distance is 'basic empirical information' because a golfer can simply pace off the distance.  

 

Observing the slope with one's eyes or feet is 'basic empirical information.'  But getting data obtained thru high level camera images to show the precise directions of slopes all over the screen (and with slope %'s) is not basic empirical information.  

 

AimPoint, using your feet and your fingers is obviously basic empirical information.

 

3.  Does this hurt the pace of play or risk player/spectator safety?

 

I don't believe that getting rid of greens books will speed up the pace of play on Tour.  The tour's pace of play is their pace of play and there's not much that can be done.  For amateurs, I could see it slowing the pace of play because they don't have a caddie to handle the book for them and make the baseline reads.

 

I do believe that yardage books can speed up the pace of play for golfers of all levels.   If we were to get rid of yardage books and rangefinders, players would still pace off the distance to landmarks or yardage markers which would take more time.  Having said that, I would be perfectly okay getting rid of yardage books for rangefinders...basically giving the information at a faster rate.

 

AimPoint is much like greens books in that I don't think getting rid of it will speed up the pace of play.  However, many AimPoint users are quicker at reading greens than non-AimPoint users.

 

 

4.  Can a rules committee reasonably and feasibly do something to prevent the player from doing this?

 

Absolutely.  One cannot remember the information that the green books provide...which is the break of every location of every green.

 

But with yardage books it's a different story.  First there are yardage markers on the course that the player can simply pace off from.  Secondly, if there are no yardage markers a player could use the scorecard and pace off from the tee.  Lastly, a player could go on Google Earth or use a rangefinder prior to the tournament, create landmarks on each hole and easily remember each landmark and their distance (the oak tree on #1 is 150 yards away, the right fairway bunker is 170 yards away) and then just pace off from there.

 

With AimPoint, you're asking a rules committee to determine if a player is using their feet and their fingers to use the AimPoint method.

 

5.  Is there a precedent for this?

 

I do believe there is a precedent for yardage books with scorecards showing the distance of each hole and often times showing what distances are from certain locations on hole using simple diagrams.  There is yardage markers on almost every golf course that have been around for over 100 years.

 

The claim of precedent for greens books is that there are yardage books.  But as discussed in the previous answers there is really no similarity between greens books and yardage books other than they are books that golfers use for information purposes.

 

In the end, I think a solution that should be considered is to get rid of the greens books and the yardage books and allow players to use rangefinders w/o slope.  Basically allowing the player to access information where there's not a great variance in obtaining that information between golfers.  Bryson DeChambeau isn't better at gauging yardages than Joseph Bramlett.  But a Denny McCarthy may be able to read greens far better than Shane Lowry if they both did not have access to greens books.  So it's better to just give them the yardage information in as quick of a manner possible because of its low importance in terms of separating players performance from one another.

 

 

 

 

RH

 

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7 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Just heard Rory speak on this.  And he’s absolutely correct.  Reading greens is a skill. And much like all the other forgiveness aides in the game , it hurts the best players and helps up the worst.  He says that the best green readers can stand out again.  I cannot see how anyone can argue with that.  

Does he never want to win again as he is certainly not going to fall into the category of best green reader.

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Ban any green reading books (published and personal notes) on the greens. Who is to say that some guys will just copy existing green reading books out there and just write them in their own books.

 

To me, green reading is similar to Chess or Texas Hold'Em.  Pulling out a green reading book on the greens would be like pulling out a strategy book during a Chess match to help to make a move or during a Hold'Em hand to figure out the odds of your hand. Of course in Chess and Texas Hold'Em, you actually have to use your brain to figure out your next move. 😜

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23 minutes ago, Barfolomew said:

Always thought green books were an embarrassment to the PGA..... the skill of reading greens is a major part of putting.  Which should separate players scores. 

 

I bet the best green readers absolutely hated green books cause it watered down their advantage...

 

Not a chance.  Tour pros still miss half of their putts from 8' away.  If you're a good putter, you want every piece of help possible.  If you're a good putter who makes 8-10' putts a mere 10% more than the next guy, you already have an inherent advantage over many of your competitors....no different than a guy who drives it 325 in the fairway consistently vs a guy who hits it 280.

 

8 hours ago, bladehunter said:

Just heard Rory speak on this.  And he’s absolutely correct.  Reading greens is a skill. And much like all the other forgiveness aides in the game , it hurts the best players and helps up the worst.  He says that the best green readers can stand out again.  I cannot see how anyone can argue with that.  

 

Guys that don't use them much won't be affected by this.  But lets not pretend that greens reading books are the only thing a player uses to read a putt.

 

At the Tour level, I don't think elimination of these books will change much.  Good putters are good putters, and it usually comes from mechanics, not green-reading skill.  Guys don't flock to the practice green on Monday through Wednesday to seek out Steve Stricker for green-reading advice.  

 

Books or no books, the good putters will remain good putters, and the mediocre putters will remain mediocre.  That's why I'm kinda indifferent on the whole subject.

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1 hour ago, JaNelson38 said:

 

Not a chance.  Tour pros still miss half of their putts from 8' away.  If you're a good putter, you want every piece of help possible.  If you're a good putter who makes 8-10' putts a mere 10% more than the next guy, you already have an inherent advantage over many of your competitors....no different than a guy who drives it 325 in the fairway consistently vs a guy who hits it 280.

 

 

Guys that don't use them much won't be affected by this.  But lets not pretend that greens reading books are the only thing a player uses to read a putt.

 

At the Tour level, I don't think elimination of these books will change much.  Good putters are good putters, and it usually comes from mechanics, not green-reading skill.  Guys don't flock to the practice green on Monday through Wednesday to seek out Steve Stricker for green-reading advice.  

 

Books or no books, the good putters will remain good putters, and the mediocre putters will remain mediocre.  That's why I'm kinda indifferent on the whole subject.

I’m talking good putters.  The thing that serrated good from good ( top tier putters ) is reading greens.    A lot of pga tour guys can hit their line , not as many can read greens as well as they putt.  If that makes sense. 

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59 minutes ago, BHI 99 said:

If everyone uses them the advantage is the same as if nobody uses them. 

 

 

Not true. Some can read greens without them.   Some rely on them exclusively .  
 

What you said would be true if everyone NEEDED them to read greens.  

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2 hours ago, johnseg said:

Does he never want to win again as he is certainly not going to fall into the category of best green reader.

You never know.  It maybe the book and that mallet that’s hindering his eyesight and feel.  Throw them away and I’d bet anything he makes more. 

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I think it could really shake things up on the PGA tour if they banned all green reading books. The players that depend on them the most will just have that extra amount of indecision and doubt hitting their putts. Over a course of a tournament with roughly 116-ish putts, that could equate into several strokes. 

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      Jake Knapp's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      New Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Tyler Duncan's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sunjae Im's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ping's Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Vincent Whaley's custom Cameron - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Odyssey Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Super Stroke custom grips - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Zac Blair's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bettinardi Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       

       
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