Green-reading books likely gone from the tour next season

[bcski]

4 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I’m talking good putters.  The thing that serrated good from good ( top tier putters ) is reading greens.    A lot of pga tour guys can hit their line , not as many can read greens as well as they putt.  If that makes sense. 

Good point...  And true, I suspect.

[jqsmooth]

I wonder what impact it would have on average putts per round.

[deadsolid...shank]

On 6/27/2021 at 11:40 AM, Shilgy said:

 

NM. Wish we could still delete a post. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by deadsolid...shank

[charliefarleigh]

On 6/27/2021 at 2:25 PM, bladehunter said:

Beg to differ. It’s been a team game at the pro level since at least the 70s. Probably before.  

I disagree,caddies were generally hired on a basis of having local knowledge and there was insufficient money for a professional to retain a full time caddie other than exceptional circumstances like Henry Cotton whose caddie acted as chauffeur and butler combined.

I can't recall ever having seen Hogan,Palmer,Nicklaus or Trevino having a caddie draw an imaginary line for them to putt over.

[Shilgy]

17 hours ago, charliefarleigh said:

I disagree,caddies were generally hired on a basis of having local knowledge and there was insufficient money for a professional to retain a full time caddie other than exceptional circumstances like Henry Cotton whose caddie acted as chauffeur and butler combined.

I can't recall ever having seen Hogan,Palmer,Nicklaus or Trevino having a caddie draw an imaginary line for them to putt over.

Nicklaus and Trevino both used.the same caddie for years on tour. Do you think they just liked how Angelo and Herman carried the bag?

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/36-greatest-caddies-of-all-time

 

[Obee]

On 6/16/2021 at 11:57 AM, chigolfer1 said:

how much do people think this will hurt the putting stats, if at all?  Will this actually slow down the game more?

 

A LOT more guys will be taking AimPoint classes....

[tacklingdummy]

Gonna get interesting with no green reading books. Not only does it affect the green reading, but it will also affect reading approach shots by picking landing spots which is big too. Both involve skill and knowledge.  More preparation is needed for mapping greens in practice rounds now.

[Creedo77]

28 minutes ago, tacklingdummy said:

Gonna get interesting with no green reading books. Not only does it affect the green reading, but it will also affect reading approach shots by picking landing spots which is big too. Both involve skill and knowledge.  More preparation is needed for mapping greens in practice rounds now.

That prep doesn’t take that long. If you’re using a break master to get slope % it can be a long couple days for a caddie. However, most of the yardage books already have detailed slopes in, all you have to do is determine exactly how severe they are and mark them accordingly 

[iNeedMoreGolf]

Can we also just make them play the course instead of having 3 days of practice rounds.. i mean if i had 3 days of practice at a course i wanted to play i would shoot a 81... i usually shoot somewhere between 83 and 90 lol in all seriousness... just make them play on thurday. Hit the range on Wednesday... nooo practice rounds... how much more easier can they make it. I know its still hard but commonnn... no other sports get practice go's at the team they are gonna play before they playy geeezss

[Creedo77]

[Holy Moses]

Couldn't be happier with this ruling. C and D will be interesting to enforce. What will the line be between something that is hand-written in the now very much scaled down green reading book. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Holy Moses

[tacklingdummy]

I think it is a good change. Reading greens is a skill. The pros should be playing the course like amateurs have to. 

[MUNIGRIT]

Players will just make their own and draw them by hand. I'm sure they did that long before they became popular on tour.

[Holy Moses]

7 hours ago, MUNIGRIT said:

Players will just make their own and draw them by hand. I'm sure they did that long before they became popular on tour.

Sounds like you can’t really do that anymore, but will be tough to enforce

[BHI 99]

So they’ll actually have to use their own eyes. Amazing. 

[King_Slender]

Great news, but now Bryson will take even longer on the greens as he firgures out a way to determine exact degrees of slope.

[Isaac_Newton]

On 6/16/2021 at 2:57 PM, chigolfer1 said:

how much do people think this will hurt the putting stats, if at all?  Will this actually slow down the game more?

 

A little late to the party but overall putts per round has decreased slightly since 2003.

 

2003: 28.13 putts per round

2004: 28.25

2007: 28.59

2008: 28.19

2010: 28.16

2015: 28.24

2016: 28.19

2017: 27.48

2018: 27.53

2019: 27.32

2020: 28.27*

2021: 27.39

 

I simply pulled putts per round data from pgatour.com and divided sum of total putts for all players by sum of total rounds by all players. Since 2017, the PGA tour average is consistently below 28 putts per round (amazing) with the exception of the COVID limited 2020 season. All previous seasons that I looked at were above 28.  

 

Interestingly, PGA tour players started using green reading books in 2008 but we didn't see a big drop off in PPR until 2017. Though I couldn't find any data about overall  green book usage rate (perhaps legal since 2008 but we didn't see widespread adoption until 2017) or any technology changes around 2017 improving the quality of the green reading books (lidar for example).

 

If the gains are solely due to the advanced putting books then we should see putts per round increase by about .7 or .8. But, the current crop of players may just be better putters and we won't see any change at all. Will be interesting.

 

Though I have not looked at the data, I would be surprised if we see any change in ppr at the top of the leaderboard from week to week. The simple analysis above looks at all players in all tournaments. If the analysis only included the top 10 players from each tournament, then I would expect minimal to no difference from 2003 - 2021.  Though I don't have the time to do that.

 

And to your second question, I don't think this will have any affect on pace of play. Slow players will still be slow, fast players will still be fast. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Isaac_Newton

[Medson]

5 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

Sounds like you can’t really do that anymore, but will be tough to enforce

 

I think player hand drawn diagrams based on player's observation are still allowed. I think what is not allowed (in theory) is to copy from another not committee approved source. As you said, this is going to be tough to enforce. 

[Holy Moses]

3 hours ago, Isaac_Newton said:

 

A little late to the party but overall putts per round has decreased slightly since 2003.

 

2003: 28.13 putts per round

2004: 28.25

2007: 28.59

2008: 28.19

2010: 28.16

2015: 28.24

2016: 28.19

2017: 27.48

2018: 27.53

2019: 27.32

2020: 28.27*

2021: 27.39

 

I simply pulled putts per round data from pgatour.com and divided sum of total putts for all players by sum of total rounds by all players. Since 2017, the PGA tour average is consistently below 28 putts per round (amazing) with the exception of the COVID limited 2020 season. All previous seasons that I looked at were above 28.  

 

Interestingly, PGA tour players started using green reading books in 2008 but we didn't see a big drop off in PPR until 2017. Though I couldn't find any data about overall  green book usage rate (perhaps legal since 2008 but we didn't see widespread adoption until 2017) or any technology changes around 2017 improving the quality of the green reading books (lidar for example).

 

If the gains are solely due to the advanced putting books then we should see putts per round increase by about .7 or .8. But, the current crop of players may just be better putters and we won't see any change at all. Will be interesting.

 

Though I have not looked at the data, I would be surprised if we see any change in ppr at the top of the leaderboard from week to week. The simple analysis above looks at all players in all tournaments. If the analysis only included the top 10 players from each tournament, then I would expect minimal to no difference from 2003 - 2021.  Though I don't have the time to do that.

 

And to your second question, I don't think this will have any affect on pace of play. Slow players will still be slow, fast players will still be fast. 

That is all true, but greens are much quicker than they were in 2003. They are usually placed in tougher locations too. On the easier side, greens are much smoother now due to better green conditioning, most players using spikeless shoes, and being able to tap down spike marks. 

[CasualLie]

How in the world can they enforce Rule C???

 

I had a green reading book from before built off a 3D map and highly accurate.  I tell my Caddy to study it like crazy, then I get my PGA book and have caddy draw a few lines from memory.  Totally against the new rules, but the caddy can just say they went out and rolled a few putts to get the same info???

 

And what are they going to do?  Turn the PGA Tour into the MLB.  Like pitchers pulling their pants down for umps when they walk off the mound after each inning, now officials will be checking green books between holes.

 

This is all becoming quite comical.

 

 

[Mustard_Tiger]

14 hours ago, MUNIGRIT said:

Players will just make their own and draw them by hand. I'm sure they did that long before they became popular on tour.

 

 

You can bet that Patrick Reed will be doing that.

[Titleist99]

On 7/26/2021 at 11:59 AM, Creedo77 said:

That prep doesn’t take that long. If you’re using a break master to get slope % it can be a long couple days for a caddie. However, most of the yardage books already have detailed slopes in, all you have to do is determine exactly how severe they are and mark them accordingly 

from what i understand....no devices will be used during the practice rounds such as trackman , levels etc....dont quote me though

[aenemated]

On 6/17/2021 at 10:19 AM, smashdn said:

 

This seems like a quick draw contest for who can provide the next question attempting to debunk the other's argument.

 

Are you sure that the green's reading books shown above have been used for decades?

 

GolfLogix "has been professionally mapping ocurses for over 12 years," according to their website.

StrackaLine since 2007.

ProGreenBook in 2015.

 

I haven't personally ran across very many articles touting the PGA Tour now playing faster rounds.  On the other hand there have been more than a couple lamenting the five plus hour rounds.  No I can't link the two together.  I doubt you can either.

 

So to your points; I have found no evidence suggesting that rounds are faster, for any reason, anywhere, but on the contrary, several instances stating that "slow play" is a problem.  Is it a new problem or old problem?  I don't know.  Point is it is a problem which nothing to this point, including greens reading books has improved.  Secondly, I think decades is a reach.  You may make the argument that there have been homespun greens books available for decades but from my looking and research I can't find laser scanned or gps mapped greens available before 2007.  Nor

 

And for some quotes:

 

BDC speaking regarding the absence of books at The Masters - 

“It makes it harder. All I can do out here is judge with my eyes,” says Bryson DeChambeau. “Is it as precise as the greens books? Absolutely not.” 

 

Rory opines:

“Look, everything that’s talked about in those meetings is somewhat confidential, but what I can say, I think—I use a greens book, and I’d like to get rid of them,” McIlroy said. “I think everyone is in the same boat, most guys on tour are in the same boat, that if it’s going to be available to us and it helps us, people are going to use it. But I think for the greater good of the game, I’d like to see them be outlawed and for them not to be used anymore.”

 

“Augusta doesn’t provide you with a green-contour book, like the other tournaments do,” McIlroy said. “So you’ve got to sort of figure it out yourself.”

 

Mr. Jon Rahm responding during a press conference: 

Q. Jon, I had some super golfing questions for you. Dustin said that with the detailed greens books, it's actually easier to learn a golf course these days than in the past. You might even be able to figure out a golf course before you even get here. I'm just curious, do you think that negates some of the challenge or perhaps even some of your advantage of having some prior golf course knowledge?

JON RAHM: You mean the greens books like the little map with all the slopes?

Q. Yeah. All the charting is so good now that he basically figured it out before he even arrived on site.

JON RAHM: Well, I don't use those books.

Q. How come?

JON RAHM: My caddie gets them. I don't look at them because I just--I'm a feel player, I trust what I see. If I have a question, I'll ask him, and he might look at it if we're in doubt. I've never spoken of this, I have to be honest, I don't think they should be allowed. That's my opinion. I think being able to read a green and read a break and understand the green is a talent, it's a skill that can be developed, and by just giving you the information, they're taking away from the game. Again, I think being able to read greens and understand greens, it's a talent, it's part of the game, and like I said, it's a skill that can be developed or not. So that's my take on it.

 

 

Rahmbo with the proper take. 

[Aaronwilson_95]

2 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

from what i understand....no devices will be used during the practice rounds such as trackman , levels etc....dont quote me though

and if you read really close not allowed during warmups either . That’s gonna be a tough rule to allow . 
 

sorry your training aid is okay 

your training aid however is not 

your training aid though is 

[Creedo77]

2 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

from what i understand....no devices will be used during the practice rounds such as trackman , levels etc....dont quote me though

In that quote (from July) those were allowed but not any longer. 
 

Trackman is still allowed on the range and for practice rounds 

 

The ban is based on all things green related 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Creedo77

[Aaronwilson_95]

11 minutes ago, Creedo77 said:

In that quote (from July) those were allowed but not any longer. 
 

Trackman is still allowed on the range and for practice rounds 

 

The ban is based on all things green related 

So can you use a digital level on the practice greens or no?

[MUNIGRIT]

10 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

Sounds like you can’t really do that anymore, but will be tough to enforce

I dont think that is part of the deal. That is what is kind of dumb about it. They can hand write notes like they always have. Maybe I read it wrong but I didn't spend too much time reading it. 

[Creedo77]

14 minutes ago, Aaronwilson_95 said:

So can you use a digital level on the practice greens or no?

I wouldn’t see why not

 

The wording says the actual course isn’t allowed 

 

There’s no way that they can keep tabs on everyone’s yardage books though. 

 

 

[Creedo77]

10 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

Sounds like you can’t really do that anymore, but will be tough to enforce

That’s the only thing they can do. If they hit a putt or roll a ball they can 100% draw what it did 

[Holy Moses]

4 hours ago, CasualLie said:

How in the world can they enforce Rule C???

 

I had a green reading book from before built off a 3D map and highly accurate.  I tell my Caddy to study it like crazy, then I get my PGA book and have caddy draw a few lines from memory.  Totally against the new rules, but the caddy can just say they went out and rolled a few putts to get the same info???

 

And what are they going to do?  Turn the PGA Tour into the MLB.  Like pitchers pulling their pants down for umps when they walk off the mound after each inning, now officials will be checking green books between holes.

 

This is all becoming quite comical.

 

 

That would be the most exciting thing goes has done in a while