Augusta making big changes?

[KRAMER1997]

I saw this on twitter recently and looks like there is some work being done on holes 11 and 15 at Augusta National. Looks like they are taking the trees out on 11 and lengthening up hole 15 a bit. I really like what they are doing on 11 because that hole has became a chip out if you miss the drive.  Not sure how I feel about 15 yet.

 

[golfortennis]

11 is not only a chip out, but coupled with the additional length, it has made players go left off the tee, and thus go right on the approach, and they have taken the water out of play.  The flag is almost never over on the left anymore like it once was, because even the committee knows that would be a big ask of the guys.  I get why they put them in, but the unintended consequences were big.

[me05501]

3 hours ago, golfortennis said:

11 is not only a chip out, but coupled with the additional length, it has made players go left off the tee, and thus go right on the approach, and they have taken the water out of play.  The flag is almost never over on the left anymore like it once was, because even the committee knows that would be a big ask of the guys.  I get why they put them in, but the unintended consequences were big.

Yep. That used to be one of the more exciting holes on the course but it’s been a snore lately. 

Edited June 18, 2021 by me05501

[Hawkeye77]

Tweaks but not big changes. 

[Mr. Clean]

They got a tip, looking for Jimmy Hoffa.

[elwhippy]

If Bobby Jones came back I doubt he would recognise the layout. 

[Hankshank]

The rebuilds are on the wrong part of the course. 

 

A picture of the 17, 18, 1, 9, tee 10 area dug up and all the great architects of golf seen standing in the middle of it pointing and scratching their heads would be more satisfactory. I think the ghosts of MacKenzie and Jones might have been seen nodding approvingly.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Hankshank

[MattyO1984]

Anything that they can do to bring the water back into play on 11 is OK in my book. It’s just a boring hole, long hole now plus it seemed the the wilder you were, the better a second shot you get if you went into those trees on the right.

[Ferguson]

3 hours ago, elwhippy said:

If Bobby Jones came back I doubt he would recognise the layout. 

 

 

"I do declare, this place looks much different than what me and Al Mac dreamed up in '33.  And who is this Bruce guy?"   

[Hawkeye77]

8 hours ago, Mr. Clean said:

They got a tip, looking for Jimmy Hoffa.

 

They have always known where he is.

[bladehunter]

I don’t get how you think moving those trees brings the water into play more?  I’d say less. The truth is today they are hitting 7 iron or less into that green where on e upon a time it was a 4 iron.  That’s why the water isn’t in play. 
 

think this way.  Drive into the woods. Forced pitch out sideways. Now. Is the water not in play on the 3rd ?  Why don’t we see more water balls on the 3rd ?  Answer. Short irons.  

[MattyO1984]

8 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I don’t get how you think moving those trees brings the water into play more?  I’d say less. The truth is today they are hitting 7 iron or less into that green where on e upon a time it was a 4 iron.  That’s why the water isn’t in play. 
 

think this way.  Drive into the woods. Forced pitch out sideways. Now. Is the water not in play on the 3rd ?  Why don’t we see more water balls on the 3rd ?  Answer. Short irons.  

 

My view is that taking the trees away will encourage players to drive to the right as opposed to the left. If they are on the right, the second shot is hitting away from the water, less so if they are on the right.

[golfortennis]

5 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I don’t get how you think moving those trees brings the water into play more?  I’d say less. The truth is today they are hitting 7 iron or less into that green where on e upon a time it was a 4 iron.  That’s why the water isn’t in play. 
 

think this way.  Drive into the woods. Forced pitch out sideways. Now. Is the water not in play on the 3rd ?  Why don’t we see more water balls on the 3rd ?  Answer. Short irons.  

 

We're not talking about the 3rd shot.  Don't move the trees.  Get rid of them.  When you force guys left off the tee, on a 505 yard par 4, the angle to play is to the right.  You watch the number of approach shots that land in that collection area to the right of the green, and it's much, much more frequent than when it once was.  

 

When Faldo won in 89 and 90, he holed a putt on 11 to a flag that was in the back left.  The following year, Raymond Floyd put his approach shot in the water, trying to get to a flag in the same general area.  Now the flag is usually middle/right because the approach shot is from well back(and it's not a 7 iron).  It would be nearly unfair to put the pin in the back left and ask guys to go at it from 200 yards.  Remember that tee shot is uphill as well, so you are not getting the same distance as 13.     

 

[golfortennis]

2 minutes ago, MattyO1984 said:

 

My view is that taking the trees away will encourage players to drive to the right as opposed to the left. If they are on the right, the second shot is hitting away from the water, less so if they are on the right.

 

Bingo.  Less words than I used to say what I was thinking.

[Ferguson]

10 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

 

Bingo.  Less words than I used to say what I was thinking.

 

 

[Frankensteins Monster]

 

 

 

 

 

[bcski]

6 hours ago, elwhippy said:

If Bobby Jones came back I doubt he would recognise the layout. 

I doubt he would recognize the GAME nowadays...

[ebrasmus21]

7 minutes ago, Par Be A Joke said:

I doubt he would recognize the GAME nowadays...

Would he be like “get off my lawn” or would he be like “this isn’t so bad” 

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, golfortennis said:

 

We're not talking about the 3rd shot.  Don't move the trees.  Get rid of them.  When you force guys left off the tee, on a 505 yard par 4, the angle to play is to the right.  You watch the number of approach shots that land in that collection area to the right of the green, and it's much, much more frequent than when it once was.  

 

When Faldo won in 89 and 90, he holed a putt on 11 to a flag that was in the back left.  The following year, Raymond Floyd put his approach shot in the water, trying to get to a flag in the same general area.  Now the flag is usually middle/right because the approach shot is from well back(and it's not a 7 iron).  It would be nearly unfair to put the pin in the back left and ask guys to go at it from 200 yards.  Remember that tee shot is uphill as well, so you are not getting the same distance as 13.     

 

Please re read my post. The 3rd shot pitchout will be from where a good drive should be.  Right ?  So it’s just as relevant as the good 2nd. Approach is approach. Nobody forces guys left.  Hit a good drive up the right.  
 

If they wanted the pond in play they’d put the pin back left.  Hit a hook from the left if you’re brave.  Truth is TV wants  birdies. So they move the trees to make the hole easier. Not harder. 
 

If this doesn’t make the hole easier , then why did we see sooo many players putting their tee ball right into  that shoot the fans stand in , inside the tree line ?  They did this for the better angle in.  Why do we need it to be easier ? That’s all I’m saying. 
 

by the by. That approach is downhill. If it’s 200 middle , it’s 180ish front , playing 170-175.  .  A lot of 7 irons coming in there.  

Edited June 18, 2021 by bladehunter

[jonsnow]

I admit I haven't been to the Masters in nearly 20 years, but I thought the tee on #15 was already nearly in the service road? I guess there was more room behind it than I realized.

[smashdn]

12 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Tweaks but not big changes. 

 

Was going to say those are not big changes by ANGC standards.

 

Moving the tee box back on 13 is more of a baller move in my eyes.

[golfortennis]

Just now, smashdn said:

 

Was going to say those are not big changes by ANGC standards.

 

Moving the tee box back on 13 is more of a baller move in my eyes.

 

 

I forget if it was Duval or Leonard, but one thing they had suggested(especially if back was not a option), was lowering the tee box and moving it a bit left.  Was intriguing.  Hopefully they incorporate a bit of it, and not just move it back.

[smashdn]

6 hours ago, MattyO1984 said:

Anything that they can do to bring the water back into play on 11 is OK in my book. It’s just a boring hole, long hole now plus it seemed the the wilder you were, the better a second shot you get if you went into those trees on the right.

 

Distance gains made it so you could clear the trees on the right hand side and have a shot into the open side of the green.  And I am actually ok with that.  What was also happening though was if you pushed it well right you ended up in that slot that also opened up the right hand side.

 

So you either extend the trees (no easy task and that also takes away a lawn chair parking spot) or you move the box back.

 

That hole needs to play narrow so you keep the pond in play on the left with your approach.  The question is, what can you put in the fairway or off the fairway on the right hand side that compels you to think a drive up to the safer, left side is better?  Right now sparsely planted pines is not a strong enough deterrent.

 

The bold play is and was always meant to be up the right hand side.  I don't know what they put up there in the beginning to make that the more challenging side though.  It has to be something to balance the safer left side.

 

A classic "pick your poison" hole.  Safe drive but harder approach, more challenging/riskier drive to open up an easier approach.  Or the real conservative play, up the left of the fairway, bail out right to the hummocks and chip on.

[MUNIGRIT]

8 hours ago, elwhippy said:

If Bobby Jones came back I doubt he would recognise the layout. 

He would get annihilated by the wokesters. He is glad he is pushing up daisies.

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, golfortennis said:

It would be nearly unfair to put the pin in the back left and ask guys to go at it from 200 yards.

 

That's a puzzle they would just have to figure out.  The fact that it seems unfair would be the exact reason I would put it up there.  If possible I would maybe try to get the tee up some to put a hair shorter iron in their hands if I had that severe of a hole location.  A tiny olive branch.

 

 

(I also love how ANGC stole some shine from the US Open unintentionally.)

Edited June 18, 2021 by smashdn

[golfortennis]

2 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

That's a puzzle they would just have to figure out.  The fact that it seems unfair would be the exact reason I would put it up there.  If possible I would maybe try to get the tee up some to put a hair shorter iron in their hands if I had that severe of a hole location.  A tiny olive branch.

 

Maybe unfair was the wrong word.  I wish someone had a chart of where shots were taken on that hole.  It just puts everyone aiming for that area to the right of the green.  

 

The other problem is Augusta has only ever had tournament tees and member tees, and the member tees are so short (for the pros) they could never use them in the tournament.  I highly doubt they want to create additional tee boxes.

 

Just get rid of Hootiewood.  

[smashdn]

40 minutes ago, golfortennis said:

I highly doubt they want to create additional tee boxes.

 

They don't want multiple tee boxes on a hole.  They have no problem creating additional tee boxes.

 

And yeah, you are going to get more/most guys approaching from a certain angle/fairway location when that is by far the best place to be to attack a hole location and there is nothing back there in the fairway making them second guess hitting a drive there.

 

Put the "MacKenzie Bunker" from ten up there in the right edge of the fairway and guys would probably not play up that direction.  I don't think that is a good idea but I hope you get my point that until there is a potential for a lost shot up there on that slope or section of fairway there is no reason for them not to land a drive up that way.  The angle is better and the farther right you go up through there the fewer trees and the less likely you are blocked out and the more open the green becomes.  Mr. Jones and Dr. Mac probably never dreamed anybody would ever be able to put a drive up that far that direction.

[golfortennis]

4 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

They don't want multiple tee boxes on a hole.  They have no problem creating additional tee boxes.

 

And yeah, you are going to get more/most guys approaching from a certain angle/fairway location when that is by far the best place to be to attack a hole location and there is nothing back there in the fairway making them second guess hitting a drive there.

 

Put the "MacKenzie Bunker" from ten up there in the right edge of the fairway and guys would probably not play up that direction.  I don't think that is a good idea but I hope you get my point that until there is a potential for a lost shot up there on that slope or section of fairway there is no reason for them not to land a drive up that way.  The angle is better and the farther right you go up through there the fewer trees and the less likely you are blocked out and the more open the green becomes.  Mr. Jones and Dr. Mac probably never dreamed anybody would ever be able to put a drive up that far that direction.

 

They don't want additional tee boxes, but the suggestion to move it up some would require that.  So it's a non-starter.  

 

I just think that by putting the threat onto the tee shot has really taken the water out of play, and taking the water out of play takes away from the hole more than the trouble off the tee as it stands adds to it.

 

Agree completely no one ever imagined a shot could be put over there. 

[bladehunter]

So what caused the tee shots to start collecting left?  Is it the addition length now off the tee ?  When were the trees right added ?  I just don’t get the idea that the hole isn’t being played as designed now.  The smart player is always going to bail right on approach.  4 is a good number.  Sunday evening is The only time anyone would go at a back left pin. So put it there and watch the carnage. 

[golfortennis]

34 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

So what caused the tee shots to start collecting left?  Is it the addition length now off the tee ?  When were the trees right added ?  I just don’t get the idea that the hole isn’t being played as designed now.  The smart player is always going to bail right on approach.  4 is a good number.  Sunday evening is The only time anyone would go at a back left pin. So put it there and watch the carnage. 

 

BUt they don't put the pin on the left on Sunday very often.  Even when the pin is front right you see guys playing right of the green.  Players don't want to mess with the trees on the right because, sure you can get lucky, but really you don't want to take the chance.  So you play further left than you would before.

 

The trees came in about 98 or so.  Possibly a few years later, but they're called Hootiewood apparently, because it happened while Hootie Johnson was in charge of the club and the toonamint.