Is the Motorcycle move, by itself, a shallowing move?

[DrWatson]

I recently read Tyler Ferrell's Stock Tour Swing, which completely changed the way I look at the golf swing. I was particularly fascinated by the emphasis on steepening vs shallowing moves, and the important of finding a balance between these. 

 

In this same book, he talks about the Motorcycle Move (flex/bow the lead wrist), and how this shuts the clubface, which is an important move in order to get shaft lean (since the latter opens the club face). So, my question is as follows: is the motorcycle move also a shallowing move, or does it exclusively shut the club face (without shallowing the shaft)? Right now, my steepening move is to stay in left tilt to start the downswing (current feel is Monte's zipper away, albeit I'm not sure if this actually promotes left tilt or not (I hope?)). In addition, my shallowing move is to "drop"/lower my arms down behind me, which I suspect also makes me "cast" (in the good sense of the word). My feel for this is sort of like unbending my trail elbow to start the downsing. On top of all of this, I do the motorcycle move on the backswing, and hold it on the downsing. So, my concerrn is that, if this is already a shallowing move, also trying to drop my arms behind me is throwing my swing off-balance (two shallowing moves vs one steepening move). I tried both doing them together and doing only the motorcycle, but had very similar results (good consistency with a baby draw, but a few fat/thin balls), so it was hard to reach a conclusion.

 

Any thoughts on this? Sorry for what feels like a rant about swing feels, but any comments are appreciated.

Edited June 17, 2021 by DrWatson

[Shanker84]

I could be wrong here but I assume it just depends on how you do it. I'm terrible with the flexion, supination etc terms but I can hold a club in my hands and bow my wrists without changing the angle of the shaft (non-shallowing move) and I can hold it in my hands and bow my wrists in a way that closes the club face and shallows the club. If you're just bowing your wrists but not changing the direction that the head is pointing, it's not going to shallow. There's a very well regarded instructor on here named @MonteScheinblum who has a number of videos on this very thing, specifically his new no turn cast and the "casting to 8" portion. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Shanker84

[glk]

https://golfsmartacademy.s3.amazonaws.com/files/SteepAndShallows.pdf

 

in comments associated with his steep/video video where he attached the chart, i asked Tyler if lead wrist flexion could ever be a shallower - part of his reply

 

Tyler F

 

1 year, 11 months ago

+Guy K My main criteria is things that widen the arc = shallow, things that swing more horizontally = shallow. Lead wrist flexion definitely narrows the arc and the effect on the horizontal vs vertical motion of the club head is pretty minimal. But another useful way to think about it is, what other movements compliment this move? Most of the moves that compliment lead wrist flexion (ulnar deviation and side bend) are shallowers.

 

 

 

[DrWatson]

Thanks for the replies fellas! A lot of useful stuff here... So it sounds like steepener+shallower+motorcycle is indeed a good combination.

 

Slightly related question: is the feel of "dropping the arms behind" more/less effective than "right elbow to the belly button" as a shallowing move? I know the answer is "to each their own" and that both have the potential to work, but I am curious if there is some consensus on what is more reliable.

 

 

[Shanker84]

3 minutes ago, DrWatson said:

Thanks for the replies fellas! A lot of useful stuff here... So it sounds like steepener+shallower+motorcycle is indeed a good combination.

 

Slightly related question: is the feel of "dropping the arms behind" more/less effective than "right elbow to the belly button" as a shallowing move? I know the answer is "to each their own" and that both have the potential to work, but I am curious if there is some consensus on what is more reliable.

 

 

I'm one of those people that's always had a hard time with feeling like my arms have nothing to do and so the thought of just dropping them and turning, for me, gets really ugly and they end up getting tens and jabbing at the ball. I can do it okay on the range but when I take it out to the course I have a hard enough time keeping them relaxed and just hit shots off the planet. Personally, I feel like leading with the elbow is easier as it's giving your arms something to do and then just creates an arm driven pivot. Try out both? 

[MonteScheinblum]

Wrist flexion does little to shallow/flatten the shaft.  Maybe not at all.

 

However, Ulnar deviation pairs with flexion and that does shallow/flatten.  The key here is to not exclusively right tilt early to shallow/flatten.  That’s bad news.  Staying in left tilt while hand path and UD flatten the shaft is hard, but what most elite players do.

 

People who make fun of the Alex Noren reversal don’t know what they’re looking at.  That’s what he’s doing.  Staying in left tilt and UD.

[Buzzkill]

On the subject of motorcycle move along with zipper away drill, I do both which are my 2 thoughts when I play.  As far as the motorcycle move, my motor move begins at start of down swing before I get to target line.  If you watch videos on the subject, they typically show the move when shaft is parallel which is hook city for me.  I already draw the ball so motor move before target line with rotation works for me.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Buzzkill

[Zitlow]

Is the motorcycle move an action or reaction?

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Zitlow

[golfarb1]

First you must understand that the shallowing move that is discussed incessantly is an ARM move and not a body move .Many golfers misinterpret shallowing as excessive right lateral bend during transition  with the right elbow and right shoulder dropping excessively down in transition . This is not the desirable arm shallowing move , but a BODY shallowing  move that creates a number of different problems .
Shallowing  correctly with your arms will orient the SHAFT more horizontally , thus placing the club head further from the ball than a steeper position. From that more horizontal position a golfer has among other things more time to rotate before impact . 
There are two anatomical moves which create shallowing of the arms,LEFT  FOREARM PRONATION during the backswing and during transition and RIGHT SHOULDER EXTERNAL ROTATION during transition . Left forearm pronation  means rotating the left forearm  so that the left palm faces more down , while right shoulder external rotation results in the RIGHT ELBOW moving more towards the TARGET LINE rather than just straight down. Right shoulder rotation has been described as “LOSING an arm wresting match”. The downside to both of these moves is that they both open the clubface . An open clubface late in the downswing is a recipe for hip stalling and flipping at impact  and is among the most common problems.

The “motorcycle  move means flexing the left wrist so that it is straighter  or bowed . I prefer to focus on the right wrist so that it is more bent back or extended. NOTE that either flexing the left wrist or  extension of the right wrist is a different movement than either left forearm pronation or right shoulder external rotation. Flexing the right wrist will have a tendency to close the clubface , offsetting the opening effect of shallowing .  Some golfers perform the “ motorcyle move “ later in the backswing, others do it in transition while others do it even later. Those golfers with weak grips will have their lead wrist bowed more, while those with stronger grips will still have some cupping.

The average pro on tour measured 21 degrees of extension of right wrist extension at setup. This translates to a stronger grip. At the top he extended his right wrist to 64 degrees of extension . And he keep it there during most of the downswing . At about last parallel  the amount of right extension went up slightly to 68 degrees. By impact the weight of the clubhead releasing caused some loss of right wrist extension , but at impact his right wrist extension was still greater than setup at 39 degrees. 
Amateur golfers measured 21 degrees at setup, 60 degrees at the top and only 20 degrees at impact . 
Interestingly those golfers with very strong grips, like Tommy” two gloves” Gainey start out with so much right wrist extension at setup that they have little need for more extension during the swing. 

[DrWatson]

Monte, do you have any thoughts on arms down + motorcycle move? I *think* "arms down" actually makes me ulnar deviate too (as a byproduct of feeling my trail arm unbend), so the end result is still ulnar+flexion of the lead wrist, but I am wondering if this should be just a wrist move and not a wrist+arms move. 

 

On a similar note, is it a good idea to actively try to stay in left tilt while I shift my weight to my lead ankle (a la Zipper away feel, for example), or should this just be a reaction to the (good) "cast"? Action or reaction?